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Assembly of God and Tongues

StanJ

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The three links were interesting but due to their age I found it a bit hard to work out exactly what they meant. The third link was interesting in that it supported the standard Pentecostal view that those who were filled with the Holy Spirit spoke in actual human languages, not that the crowd were empowered to understand what was being said.
If you can track down any position papers by the Canadian Foursquare and the PAOC as to the Holy Spirit only falling on the Twelve or on the 120 who were present, then this would undoubtedly make for some interesting reading - must go!
I did find it interesting that in some of these articles the authors would support my view of the amount of people but not my view of tongues, or vice versa.
 
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swordsman1

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Actually what Paul was referring to was the stammering and stuttering that Isaiah spoke of, that did not actually sound like a language that anybody would recognize. Just as tongues is. The Greek word in 1 Cor 14:21, is ἕτερο(héteros), and has a qualitative sense about it that depicts another: i.e. one not of the same nature, form, class, kind, different. This is exactly what Paul was referring to, not a known or foreign language, but an unknown, never-before-heard language. The exact same thought that Isaiah was conveying, because obviously Isaiah recognized the Assyrian language. What Isaiah also states in verse 10 is exactly what the God-fearing Jews experienced in Acts 2:12-13.
Paul doesn't place any emphasis on 'stammering and stuttering' lips. Quite the reverse. When Paul quotes Isaiah 28:11, he substitutes the Hebrew word for 'stammering' with the Greek word heterōn ("other"). If anything he changes the emphasis from sound ('stammering lips') to foreignness ('other lips'). Further proof that it is a foreign language heard among the unbelieving Jews that is a sign of judgement against them and which Paul applies to the tongues in Corinth.


Again I refer you to v7. I'm not reading anything into the text, the text actually says; "how is it that each one of us hears them in our own native language?"
They didn't say, 'how is it they are speaking our language', so if anybody is not taking what is being written literally my friend, it is you.

"hears" does not mean 'a miracle of automatic interpretation taking place in the ears of the listeners'.

V6 says "each one heard their own language being spoken". The meaning couldn't be clearer. The disciples were speaking the foreigners' native language, and the foreigners heard them.

If I said of a Frenchman, "we heard him speaking in English". It means he was speaking English. It doesn't mean he was speaking a different language, but we miraculously heard it as English.

Your question comes from a pre dispositional bias and is not ever asked by somebody who actually accept this scripture as written. Again it says "how is it we hear?"

You seem to be avoiding the question. I'll ask it again.

Why would the Holy Spirit fall on the unbelieving crowd and give them the gift of interpretation, when the text clearly says the Holy Spirit was only poured out on the disciples?

It diminishes the miracle of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples, enabling them to miraculously speak in tongues. If your theory is correct a greater miracle was performed on the crowd of unbelievers.

But seeing as 99% of respected Pentecostal and charismatic theologians do not subscribe to your theory, it might be better to simply leave you to it.
 
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StanJ

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Paul doesn't place any emphasis on 'stammering and stuttering' lips. Quite the reverse. When Paul quotes Isaiah 28:11, he substitutes the Hebrew word for 'stammering' with the Greek word heterōn ("other"). If anything he changes the emphasis from sound ('stammering lips') to foreignness ('other lips'). Further proof that it is a foreign language heard among the unbelieving Jews that is a sign of judgement against them and which Paul applies to the tongues in Corinth.
I didn't say anything about emphasis so don't know why you're making this assertion? I said Paul was referring to what Isaiah said in chapter 28 and now for some reason this time you don't want to use the cross reference?
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/smith_chuck/c2000_Isa/Isa_026.cfm?a=707011
"hears" does not mean 'a miracle of automatic interpretation taking place in the ears of the listeners'.
V6 says "each one heard their own language being spoken". The meaning couldn't be clearer. The disciples were speaking the foreigners' native language, and the foreigners heard them.
Yes, that's right, every one HEARS THEM speaking their language. Only the Holy Spirit can help you to see this especially as you're unwilling to do so. So let me get this straight, according to you, 120 people were loudly praising God in at least all the languages that were represented in verses 9 to 11, and that each one of the God-fearing Jews could pick out distinctly what was being said in their languages simultaneously out of that din?
You find this much more sensible and believable than this spiritual event being exactly what I have said it is and God enabling those men to all hear their own languages simultaneously?
You seem to be avoiding the question. I'll ask it again.
Why would the Holy Spirit fall on the unbelieving crowd and give them the gift of interpretation, when the text clearly says the Holy Spirit was only poured out on the disciples?
It diminishes the miracle of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was poured out on the disciples, enabling them to miraculously speak in tongues. If your theory is correct a greater miracle was performed on the crowd of unbelievers.
Nobody said the Holy Spirit fell on the crowd of unbelievers, I said the Holy Spirit allowed them to hear their own mother languages. What the Holy Spirit did there was not falling on unbelievers as obviously that cannot happen. So I'll ask you a question now....Why would the Holy Spirit fall on these believers and make them speak other worldly languages when Jesus said they would speak new tongues?
But seeing as 99% of respected Pentecostal and charismatic theologians do not subscribe to your theory, it might be better to simply leave you to it.
I've already shown that your figure of 99% is not correct and I've already shown that you don't know what a Charismatic Theologian is.
 
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swordsman1

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With the term “something different”, its use can be problematic in that we each need to define what we mean by it. For most scholars, even those who are soft-cessationists such as J.I. Packer, they recognise that the tongues spoken on the Day of Pentecost, where the 120 spoke in known human languages that they did not know, were essentially the same as that of 1 Cor 12, 13 & 14 where they (and we) speak to the Father through inarticulate sounds.

Even though Pentecost tells us that the 120 spoke in known languages but in every other instance these same tongues are spoken as inarticulate sounds, they are still one and the same. With Acts 2:11 Luke tells us that the nearby Jews heard “them in our own tongues speaking of the mighty deeds of God." This has a direct bearing on Paul’s writings within 1 Cor 14 where in verse 2 he says;

“For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit”.​

On the Day of Pentecost, even though we know that the 120 were speaking of “the greatness of God”, we of course do not know exactly what they were saying to the Father, but we at least know that their words were being directed toward the Father and not to man, which is the same as with how tongues are used within the congregational setting and with our times of personal devotion; though with our devotions we can of course allow the Holy Spirit to intercede on our behalf to the Father for our needs.

Without going through each passage of chapter 14, we only need to refer to verse 16 where Paul tells us that what we speak through the Holy Spirit (or the Holy Spirit through us) are words of “praise and thanksgiving” which has a direct parallel with Acts 2 where the crowd heard the 120 speaking of “the greatness of God”.

To summarise, this means that even though the tongues of Pentecost were given in known human languages and where the normative use of tongues are given within inarticulate sounds, they are still one and the same, where the Holy Spirit is the agency of both but on the Day of Pentecost he chose to allow the 120 to speak in known languages so that the Jewish visitors to Jerusalem could better understand that something very special and unrepeatable had just occurred.

I am afraid there is no such thing as 'inarticulate' tongues.

The natural phenomenon known as glossolalia whereby the human tongue goes into autopilot is well known to linguists and anthropologists. It is not unique to Christians and anyone can discover how to do it. It is not the tongues of the New Testament. The only tongues in the New Testament were foreign human languages as described in Acts 2. Nowhere is the gift redefined anywhere else.

People who experience this phenomenon are told it is the language of angels that Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 13:1-3 but as we have seen Paul was speaking hypothetically in that passage. They are also told it is the tongues of 1 Cor 14:2:

“For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit”.

But that verse is not a re-definition of the gift. It says nothing to describe what the phenomenon actually is. All it describes is the effect of tongues in that particular setting, which was completely different from the setting at Pentecost.

At Pentecost, Jerusalem was packed with thousands of foreign Jews from all corners of the world (Acts 2:5), gathered for the feast of Pentecost. When the disciples spoke in foreign tongues, the foreigners in the vicinity recognized their language being spoken. In 1 Corinthians 14 however the tongues speaking was in a local Greek church. The context of the whole of 1 Cor 14 is "in the church" (v5,12,18,23,26,28,34). If someone was speaking in an unfamiliar foreign tongue, say Persian, then no one in the small Corinthian congregation would understand what they were saying (obviously). Paul doesn't say that no one in the whole world could possibly understand the language spoken. He is saying that in the local church no one understands (plain present tense). What was spoken was a mystery. Only God, who knows all languages, understood what was spoken.
 
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StanJ

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I am afraid there is no such thing as 'inarticulate' tongues.
Well that's funny because you're the one that brought up Isaiah 28:11 which is exactly what he is talking about, inarticulate tongues.
10 Indeed, they will hear meaningless gibberish,
senseless babbling,
a syllable here, a syllable there.
11 For with mocking lips and a foreign tongue
he will speak to these people.
12 In the past he said to them,
“This is where security can be found.
Provide security for the one who is exhausted!
This is where rest can be found.”
But they refused to listen.
13 So the Lord’s word to them will sound like
meaningless gibberish,
senseless babbling,
a syllable here, a syllable there.
As a result, they will fall on their backsides when they try to walk,
and be injured, ensnared, and captured.
 
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StanJ

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The natural phenomenon known as glossolalia whereby the human tongue goes into autopilot is well known to linguists and anthropologists. It is not unique to Christians and anyone can discover how to do it. It is not the tongues of the New Testament. The only tongues in the New Testament were foreign human languages as described in Acts 2. Nowhere is the gift redefined anywhere else.
It is not a natural phenomena, it is a spiritual phenomena and if you want to know about it then you should read 'Tongues of Men and Angels' by William J. Samarin.
I've already refuted your assertions about Acts chapter 2 throughout this thread. Sadly the only one doing the redefining in this thread is you.
 
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swordsman1

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Well that's funny because you're the one that brought up Isaiah 28:11 which is exactly what he is talking about, inarticulate tongues.
10 Indeed, they will hear meaningless gibberish,
senseless babbling,
a syllable here, a syllable there.
11 For with mocking lips and a foreign tongue
he will speak to these people.
12 In the past he said to them,
“This is where security can be found.
Provide security for the one who is exhausted!
This is where rest can be found.”
But they refused to listen.
13 So the Lord’s word to them will sound like
meaningless gibberish,
senseless babbling,
a syllable here, a syllable there.
As a result, they will fall on their backsides when they try to walk,
and be injured, ensnared, and captured.

No, in quoting Isaiah's prophecy, Paul emphasises that it was the foreignness of the language spoken among the unbelieving Jews that was a sign of judgement against them and which he applies to the tongues in Corinth, not that it sounded like gibberish. Read it again:

1 Cor 14:21-22 In the Law it is written: “With other tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.”
Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers;
 
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swordsman1

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It is not a natural phenomena, it is a spiritual phenomena and if you want to know about it then you should read 'Tongues of Men and Angels' by William J. Samarin.

This is what Samarin writes:

"There is no mystery about glossolalia. Tape recorded samples are easy to obtain and to analyze. They always turn out to be the same things: strings of syllables made up of sounds taken from among all those that the speaker knows, put together more or less haphazardly but which nevertheless emerge as word-like or sentence-like units."

"When the full apparatus of linguistic science comes to bear on glossolalia this turns out to be only a facade of language, although at times a very good one indeed."

"Glossolalia is not a supernatural phenomenon....It is similar to many other kinds of speech humans produce in more or less normal circumstances, in more or less normal psychological states. In fact, anybody can produce glossolalia if he is uninhibited and if he discovers what the "trick" is"

"And it has already been established that no special power needs to take over a person's vocal organs; all of us are equipped with everything we need to produce glossolalia"


Dr William J Samarin, Professor of Linguistics, University of Toronto.​
 
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StanJ

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No, in quoting Isaiah's prophecy, Paul emphasises that it was the foreignness of the language spoken among the unbelieving Jews that was a sign of judgement against them and which he applies to the tongues in Corinth, not that it sounded like gibberish.
No, that is your assertion, what Paul was doing was using the words of Isaiah, which he knew well being a Pharisee, to show what tongues was meant to be used as, a sign for all unbelievers. Did not mean that God would give them a new human language for every church or area that they ministered in. It did not mean that someone would speak in Egyptian one day, then Mesopotamian on another day just in case people of those languages were within ear shot. The spiritual language they used was the same one they always used as individuals , and as such it usually meant that they were the ones that had the interpretation for it as well. Paul wasn't the only one who would quote from the Old Testament to make the words apply to a current situation. Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 14, were far more detailed than just quoting Isaiah 28. They were meant to eliminate confusion and instill order. To unbelievers it does indeed sound like gibberish. But when it is accompanied by an interpretation then it does make sense and people understand. That's why Paul limited it to two or three the occurrences in any particular corporate setting. The actual tongue itself was not the important thing, but the interpretation was. It wasn't about trying to figure out what foreign speaking people where in a particular church service that Paul was dealing with, but it was to establish order so that it didn't appear like a zoo when unbelievers came in.
To use your reasoning, a believer who spoke Hebrew and Greek, could go to a church that only spoke Greek, speak in the Hebrew language, not be understood, and then translate it into Greek. Not only would that be fake and unethical but it would be as far from spiritual as one can get, and also be open to all kinds of abuse.
 
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StanJ

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This is what Samarin writes:

"There is no mystery about glossolalia. Tape recorded samples are easy to obtain and to analyze. They always turn out to be the same things: strings of syllables made up of sounds taken from among all those that the speaker knows, put together more or less haphazardly but which nevertheless emerge as word-like or sentence-like units."

"When the full apparatus of linguistic science comes to bear on glossolalia this turns out to be only a facade of language, although at times a very good one indeed."

"Glossolalia is not a supernatural phenomenon....It is similar to many other kinds of speech humans produce in more or less normal circumstances, in more or less normal psychological states. In fact, anybody can produce glossolalia if he is uninhibited and if he discovers what the "trick" is"

"And it has already been established that no special power needs to take over a person's vocal organs; all of us are equipped with everything we need to produce glossolalia"


Dr William J Samarin, Professor of Linguistics, University of Toronto.​


So it is not what you said it was and in particular It is done only in Christian churches, not by other sections of society. Is this why if it is not interpreted it sounds like gibberish, just like the Assyrian dialect sounded like to the Jews of Isaiah's day? Do you really think a new tongue / spiritual language would conform to the linguistic norms of our day? Do you really think that God would give Believers a tongue that could be dissected, understood and duplicated without the Holy Spirit? I assume you do know that Samarin was never able to duplicate it?
 
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swordsman1

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No, that is your assertion, what Paul was doing was using the words of Isaiah, which he knew well being a Pharisee, to show what tongues was meant to be used as, a sign for all unbelievers.

Paul applying Isaiah's prophecy to the tongues of Corinth is evidence that what was spoken in Corinth was human foreign languages, just as it was in Isaiah's prophecy. Paul wouldn't have used it otherwise.

This is in addition to all the other evidence I have presented in this thread for the tongues in Corinth being the same as at Pentecost.

There is no evidence for Corinthian tongues being a non-human language, a spiritual language, a heavenly language, or anything else.

To use your reasoning, a believer who spoke Hebrew and Greek, could go to a church that only spoke Greek, speak in the Hebrew language, not be understood, and then translate it into Greek. Not only would that be fake and unethical but it would be as far from spiritual as one can get, and also be open to all kinds of abuse.

What would be even easier, and even more fake, and more open to abuse, would be for someone to say "lala doka phami tasha lapoda mata jasiyehi lopa trasila daya" and then make up a translation.
 
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swordsman1

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It is done only in Christian churches, not by other sections of society.

Not so. Glossolalia has also been observed in non-Christian religions including:
- the Peyote cult among the North American Indians,
- the Haida Indians of the Pacific Northwest,
- Shamans in the Sudan,
- the Shango cult of the West Coast of Africa,
- the Shago cult in Trinidad,
- the Voodoo cult in Haiti,
- the Aborigines of South American and Australia,
- the aboriginal peoples of the subarctic regions of North America and Asia,
- the Shamans in Greenland,
- the Dyaks of Borneo,
- the Zor cult of Ethiopia,
- the Siberian shamans,
- the Chaco Indians of South America,
- the Curanderos of the Andes,
- the Kinka in the African Sudan,
- the Thonga shamans of Africa,
- Tibetan monks.
Source: Jennings, George J. "An Ethnological Study of Glossolalia"


Do you really think a new tongue / spiritual language would conform to the linguistic norms of our day?

If today's 'tongues' was a real language (one that can be translated) then yes. To be a form of communication it must have nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, etc. Otherwise it is nothing but gibberish. Linguists when studying a language can analyse it's structure, identify words, and quickly piece it together in order to be able to translate it. But with today's 'tongues' they draw a blank, even when being given a head start with translations already provided.

Do you really think that God would give Believers a tongue that could be dissected, understood and duplicated without the Holy Spirit?
Yes I do. Because that is what you could do with the tongues of Acts 2, the only description of gift.

I assume you do know that Samarin was never able to duplicate it?
I don't know that Samarin attempted to. But I do know there have been studies where linguistics students have been able to reproduce glossolalia. Their 'tongues' were played back to Pentecostals who described it as authentic examples of tongues. I will dig it out for you.
 
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StanJ

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Paul applying Isaiah's prophecy to the tongues of Corinth is evidence that what was spoken in Corinth was human foreign languages, just as it was in Isaiah's prophecy. Paul wouldn't have used it otherwise.
Again when a person prays in tongues It is a spiritual language as Paul says in verse 14; "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive."
This is in addition to all the other evidence I have presented in this thread for the tongues in Corinth being the same as at Pentecost.
That I have refuted, despite your inability or unwillingness to admit.
There is no evidence for Corinthian tongues being a non-human language, a spiritual language, a heavenly language, or anything else.
Paul says and verses 15 & 19 that we either play with our spirit or we pray with our mind, so praying in the spirit is indeed a spiritual language and praying with her mind is indeed the human language. Nowhere does he say pray in a foreign language, despite your assertions.
What would be even easier, and even more fake, and more open to abuse, would be for someone to say "lala doka phami tasha lapoda mata jasiyehi lopa trasila daya" and then make up a translation.
No it wouldn't, because if you knew anything about Pentecostalism you would know that those utterances and interpretations are subject to the acceptance of the leadership, and judged by the congregation as to the credibility and veracity of the speaker. In other words somebody without a vested interest and relationship within the congregation cannot come in and really open their mouth.
 
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swordsman1

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Again when a person prays in tongues It is a spiritual language as Paul says in verse 14; "If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive."

Paul says and verses 15 & 19 that we either play with our spirit or we pray with our mind, so praying in the spirit is indeed a spiritual language and praying with her mind is indeed the human language. Nowhere does he say pray in a foreign language, despite your assertions.

The tongues of Corinth were from a person's spirit, just as all prayer should be. But their minds were unfruitful because they didn't understand the language they were speaking. It wasn't a 'spiritual language' if by that you mean a non-human language. It doesn't say it was non-human nor is there is any evidence for it being non-human.


No it wouldn't, because if you knew anything about Pentecostalism you would know that those utterances and interpretations are subject to the acceptance of the leadership, and judged by the congregation as to the credibility and veracity of the speaker. In other words somebody without a vested interest and relationship within the congregation cannot come in and really open their mouth.

I would say that is extremely rare in today's tongues speaking congregations, where the potential is certainly there for abuse. Far more so than your postulation of someone a speaking a real foreign language they knew and passing it off as tongues and giving a false translation. Sooner or later he would be found out by someone who also knows the language. But that would be impossible with today's glossolalia which sounds like gibberish.
 
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StanJ

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Not so. Glossolalia has also been observed in non-Christian religions including:
- the Peyote cult among the North American Indians,
- the Haida Indians of the Pacific Northwest,
- Shamans in the Sudan,
- the Shango cult of the West Coast of Africa,
- the Shago cult in Trinidad,
- the Voodoo cult in Haiti,
- the Aborigines of South American and Australia,
- the aboriginal peoples of the subarctic regions of North America and Asia,
- the Shamans in Greenland,
- the Dyaks of Borneo,
- the Zor cult of Ethiopia,
- the Siberian shamans,
- the Chaco Indians of South America,
- the Curanderos of the Andes,
- the Kinka in the African Sudan,
- the Thonga shamans of Africa,
- Tibetan monks.
Source: Jennings, George J. "An Ethnological Study of Glossolalia"
Why would you try to mislead us about this if you have the actual paper? The author clearly states that these are termed Sacerdotal language.
He also writes; "Some reported cases of sacerdotal language cannot be regarded as a legitimate form of glossolalia for the obsolete words are understood by the speaker who may have learned them from elder colleagues. In this connection, one is reminded of the retention of Latin in the litanies of High Episcopal and Roman Catholic churches as well as the Orthodox church."
If today's 'tongues' was a real language (one that can be translated) then yes. To be a form of communication it must have nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, etc. Otherwise it is nothing but gibberish. Linguists when studying a language can analyse it's structure, identify words, and quickly piece it together in order to be able to translate it. But with today's 'tongues' they draw a blank, even when being given a head start with translations already provided.
Nor were tongues of Acts 2 considered real human languages, but an ecstatic tongue caused by the power of the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
Yes I do. Because that is what you could do with the tongues of Acts 2, the only description of gift.
And yet you failed to prove your assertion or belief. I see no description of a gift in Acts 2.
I don't know that Samarin attempted to. But I do know there have been studies where linguistics students have been able to reproduce glossolalia. Their 'tongues' were played back to Pentecostals who described it as authentic examples of tongues. I will dig it out for you.
Well I would like to see that if it actually exists, as it would reinforce what scripture says about the devil coming on as an angel of Light!
That is why we are told to test all spirits and they have spiritual discernment. The fact that some linguistic students would misrepresent Pentecostals speaking in tongues would be a sad indictment of the ethicalness of that school.
 
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StanJ

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The tongues of Corinth were from a person's spirit, just as all prayer should be. But their minds were unfruitful because they didn't understand the language they were speaking. It wasn't a 'spiritual language' if by that you mean a non-human language. It doesn't say it was non-human nor is there is any evidence for it being non-human.
Hence, a spiritual language., being from our spirit and the Holy Spirit. John 4:24
I would say that is extremely rare in today's tongues speaking congregations, where the potential is certainly there for abuse. Far more so than your postulation of someone a speaking a real foreign language they knew and passing it off as tongues and giving a false translation. Sooner or later he would be found out by someone who also knows the language. But that would be impossible with today's glossolalia which sounds like gibberish.
Well not surprising given you your positional bias but from my experience, never happened.
You confirm my point about Isaiah 28:11 as the issues there was the language that sounded like stammering and gibberish. Now what did God say about that? He said;
So the Lord’s word to them will sound like
meaningless gibberish,
senseless babbling,
a syllable here, a syllable there.
As a result, they will fall on their backsides when they try to walk,
and be injured, ensnared, and captured.[I/]
This is exactly what is happening today in regards to the unfounded criticism believers are subjected to for speaking in tongues.
God's promise however is that those people who criticise, will fall on their backsides, and be injured, ensnared, and captured by the enemy.
 
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Biblicist

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No, that is your assertion, what Paul was doing was using the words of Isaiah, which he knew well being a Pharisee, to show what tongues was meant to be used as, a sign for all unbelievers. . .
Stan, as I have a strong interest with Pneumatic theology, which has demanded that I try and keep abreast of the better commentaries on the subject, this has meant that I have been able to read a sizable portion of the better material that has been produced on the subject from around the late 80's. One of the more important books that came out at that time was with Grudem's The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today (1988) which became a benchmark work on the subject of New Testament prophecy.

To my knowledge, Grudem was the first theologian who was able to make any sense of 1 Cor 14:20-25 particularly with Paul's application of Isa 28:11-12, which was a passage that had baffled not only the cessationist but also the Continuist as well. Even though I regularly quote Grudem's material in part, as most people tend not to purchase the more scholarly books, I thought that it would be useful to post his 14 pages on Isaiah 28. As we need to be careful has to how much copyrighted material we post, I have included these pages without its accompanying footnotes and as the material comes from his earlier edition of Prophecy, I would recommend that those who are interested with prophecy go and purchase his newer work.

One of the more impactful parts of the following chapter is with how he demonstrated that a sign can be both positive and negative. He also rightfully pointed out that the improper use of tongues within the assembly, where each tongue is not interpreted/articulated, is that it has the unintended outcome of becoming a negative sign to those who are either unsaved or who are cessationists, in that as both are generally unfamiliar with the things of the Holy Spirit that it will often cause them to stumble and where they become hardened to the Gospel.

The material that I have provided within the Spoiler is best copied and pasted into MSWord (or similar) where a number of weeks can be spent digesting what Grudem has to say.


The Gift of Prophecy In the New Testament and Today, Wayne Grudem (1988) pp. 171-82


Prophecy as a Sign of God’s Blessing
in a Church

(1 Cor 14:20-25)

Introduction


In the middle of Paul’s instructions about the use of prophecy and tongues in the church he includes a six-verse admonition to the Corinthians (1 Cor 14:20-25), in which he says that they should not think in childish ways but should be mature, and then concludes by saying that they should seek to prophesy, because unbelievers will be driven away by tongues (without interpretation), but they will be convicted by prophecy. To that extent the passage is clear.

The problem comes in the middle of the passage, where Paul quotes an Old Testament passage (Is 28:11-12) and then says that tongues are a ‘sign’ to unbelievers but prophecy is (a ‘sign’) for believers. Yet why does he then go on to say they should use prophecy, not tongues, when unbelievers are present 1 Cor 14:23-25)?

The passage begins as follows

Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; be babes in evil, but in thinking be mature. In the law it is written, ‘With other tongues and with lips of strangers I will speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me,’ says the Lord. So tongues are a sign not to believers but to unbelievers, but prophecy is (a sign) not to un- believers but to believers (1 Cor 14:20-22).

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The meaning of the Old Testament quotation (Is 28:11- 12)

The context of Paul’s quotation from Isaiah 28:11-12 is one of judgement on unbelievers in Israel. The Lord had repeatedly warned his people but they had refused to listen. So he was warning them now that he would send on them foreign invaders (the Assyrians) whose speech they would not understand:

For with stammering lips and with other tongues he will speak to this people, to whom he said, ‘This is rest; give rest to the weary; and this is repose’; but they were not willing to hear.​

In the past the Lord had spoken clear and comforting words to the people. But they had stubbornly resisted his word. So as a result, Isaiah says that in the future the Lord will speak unclear words ‘with stammering lips and other tongues’, as a punishment for their hardness of heart. The ‘stammering lips’ and ‘other tongues’ are the lips and tongues of foreign (Assyrian) invaders, whom the people will not understand.

Paul’s use of Isaiah 28:11-12

Paul’s quotation of this verse is quite free, but not foreign to the context. ‘ “With other tongues and with other lips I will speak to this people, and not even then will they obey me,” says the Lord.’ Paul understands very well that when God speaks to people in a language they cannot understand, it is a form of punishment for unbelief. Incomprehensible speech will not guide but confuse and lead to destruction. And it is one of the last in a series of divine rebukes, none of which have produced the desired repentance and obedience (‘and not even then will they obey me’). So Derek Kidner, commenting on Isaiah 28, can say, ‘Paul’s quotation of verse 11 in 1 Corinthians 14:21 is thus a reminder, true to this context, that unknown tongues are not God’s greeting to a believing congregation but his rebuke to an unbelieving one.’


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Are both prophecy and tongues called ‘signs’?

What conclusion does Paul draw from this quotation? He says, ‘Thus, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers...’ (1 Cor 14:22, rsv). It is simply a misunderstanding of the grammatical construction used here when some translations render this as ‘tongues are for a sign’ (Authorized Version and New American Standard Bible), or even tongues are ‘intended as a sign’ (New English Bible), because this construction (Greek eis + accusative with the verb ‘to be’) often can replace a predicate nominative with no real change in meaning.68 Paul simply says, ‘Tongues are a sign.’

But then what does he say about prophecy? Quite literally, he says, ‘But prophecy not for believers but for unbelievers.’ There is no verb in this half of the sentence, and the idea must be supplied by the reader.

Several translations make this read, ‘But prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers.’

This is certainly a legitimate option grammatically, for Greek sentences frequently leave out the verb ‘to be’ and expect it to be understood by the reader. But just putting the verb ‘is’ in this sentence changes the focus slightly from Paul’s concern in the first half of the sentence. This makes the second half of the sentence concerned with benefit: prophecy gives benefit for believers, or is intended to be used for believers.

Yet Paul is not talking about benefit in the first half of the verse, he is talking about what is a ‘sign’. If the context allows it, it is much better to retain this same subject in the second half of the sentence. This gives a more satisfactory contrast and doesn’t import a new idea (the idea of who benefits from prophecy). If we retain the idea of ‘sign’ in the second half, Paul’s sentence means: ‘Therefore, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers ... but prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.’

In addition to the fact that this translation allows the same

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subject to continue through the sentence, there is another reason why this sense seems the best. To say (with the Authorized Version and New English Bible) that prophecy is designed for believers but not for unbelievers does not adequately explain the ‘therefore’, with which Paul introduces verses 23-25. In those verses Paul argues specifically that prophecy does have a positive function for unbelievers. But on the translation that says prophecy is not for unbelievers, we have this strange reasoning:

(a) Prophecy is intended not for unbelievers but for believers;
(b) therefore, you should prophesy to unbelievers.

Such reasoning simply does not make sense, and a better solution is required.

We can conclude that, if an appropriate sense can be found for this translation, it is best to translate verse 22: ‘Therefore, tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers . . . but prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers.’


The key to understanding this passage: ‘Signs’ can be positive or negative

Much confusion about this passage has resulted from an assumption that a ‘sign’ in Scripture must always function in the same way, usually in a positive way, as something that indicates God’s approval or blessing. If this is so, it is hard to understand why tongues are a ‘sign’ for unbelievers but then Paul says tongues will drive unbelievers away.

This problem can be solved, however, by realizing that ‘signs’ in Scripture can be either positive or negative, and sometimes both. If we trace the Greek term used for ‘sign’ (Greek semeion) back into the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint), we find many examples to show this.

In the Septuagint, the word ‘sign’ (Greek semeion) can often mean ‘an indication of God’s attitude’. These indications are either positive or negative: positive towards those who believe

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and obey God, but negative towards those who disbelieve and disobey him. Many signs are entirely positive: the rainbow (Gen 9:12-14) the blood on the doorpost (Ex 12:13) the invitation from the Philistines to Jonathan (1 Sam 14:10) the mark on the forehead (Ezek 9:4, 6) or any other signs sought by people who feel forsaken by God (Ps 74:9; 86:17)

Other signs are entirely negative, since they show God’s disapproval and warn of judgement unless repentance is quickly forthcoming:
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram (Num 26:10)
the bronze censers of these men (Num 16:38; cf. v. 40)
Aaron’s rod (Num 17:10)
the fulfilled curses (Deut 28:46)
the defeat of Pharaoh Hophra (Jer 44:29)
Ezekiel’s iron wall (Ezek 4:3; cf. also Ps 65:8, Is 20:3,2 Macc 15:35)​

But sometimes the term can be used of signs which are both positive and negative, indicating God’s approval and blessing on his people and his disapproval and warning of judgement towards those who are disobeying him. This is especially true of the events of the Exodus: when God sent a plague of flies on the Egyptians but kept the flies out of the land of Goshen, it was a sign of blessing to Israel but disapproval and warning to the Egyptians (Ex 8:23). The same signs and wonders can be negative signs to Pharaoh (Ex 10:1-2; 11:9-10; Deut 6:22,11:3; Neh 9:10) but positive signs to Israel (Deut 4:34-35; 6:22; 7:19; 26:8).69

In conclusion, ‘sign’, when used to mean ‘an indication of God’s attitude’, can take either a positive sense (indicating God’s approval and blessing) or a negative sense (indicating God’s disapproval and imminent judgement).

Also in the New Testament, ‘sign’ (semeion) can mean ‘an

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indication of God’s approval and blessing’ (Acts 2:22,43; 4:30; 5:12; 6:8; 15:12; Lk 2:34; Jn 2:11; 4:54; 9:16; the word is also used this way outside the New Testament: compare Epistle of Barnabas ΑΛΑ, 1 Clement 51.5). It can also mean ‘an indication of God’s disapproval and a warning of judgement’ (Lk 11:30; 21:11, 25; Acts 2:19; perhaps Mt 12:39 [cf. 12:41]; 16:4; com- pare the use in a.d.95 in 1 Clement 11.2).


Summary of Paul’s meaning

The preceding information indicates that when Paul says ‘Tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers’ (1 Cor 14:22), he is using ‘sign’ in a familiar and well-established sense. Towards those who disbelieve, signs as indications of God’s attitude in the Old Testament are always negative. They indicate God’s disapproval and carry a warning of judgement. This was precisely the function of the ‘other tongues’ in Isaiah 28:11 and Paul quite naturally applies the term ‘sign’ to them.

But ‘signs’ for those who believe and obey God in the Old Testament are generally positive. They indicate God’s presence and power among his people to bless them. Thus Paul can quite easily apply the term to prophecy in a positive sense. Prophecy is an indication of God’s approval and blessing on the congregation because it shows that God is actively present in the assembled church.70

This means that the word ‘therefore’, in 1 Corinthians 14:23 is quite natural. We can paraphrase Paul’s thought as follows:

When God speaks to people in a language they cannot understand, it signifies his anger and results in their turning farther away from him. Therefore (v. 23), if outsiders or unbelievers come in and you speak in a language they cannot understand, you will simply drive them away—this is the inevitable result of incomprehensible speech. Furthermore, in your childish way of acting (v. 20) you will be giving a ‘sign’ to the unbelievers which is entirely wrong, because their hardness of heart has not reached the point where they deserve that severe sign of judgement. So when you come​

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together (v. 26), if anyone speaks in a tongue, be sure someone interprets (v. 27); otherwise, the tongue-speaker should be quiet in the church (v. 29).

Similarly with prophecy, verses 24-25 follow quite easily from the statement in verse 22 that prophecy is a sign to believers. Once again we paraphrase Paul’s thought:

Prophecy is an indication of God’s presence among the congregation to bless it (v. 22). Therefore (v. 23), if an outsider comes in and everyone prophesies (v. 24), you will be speaking about the secrets of the outsider’s heart which he thought no one knew. He will realize that these prophecies must be the result of God’s working, and he will fall on his face and declare, ‘Truly God is among you’ (v. 25). In this way prophecy will be a sure sign to you that God really is at work in your midst.


Implications for the gift of speaking in tongues

It should be noted in connection with this passage that Paul’s reaction to this recognition of the sign function of tongues is not to forbid tongues in public worship, but to regulate the use of tongues so that they will always be interpreted when spoken in public (1 Cor 14:27-28). This seems to be a very appropriate response, for it is only incomprehensible tongues which have this negative function towards unbelievers, both in Isaiah 28:11 and in 1 Corinthians 14:23. But when a speech in tongues is interpreted, it is no longer incomprehensible and it no longer retains this ominous sign function.

Therefore, it is important to realize that in 1 Corinthians 14:20-23 Paul is not talking about the function of tongues in general, but only about the negative result of one particular abuse of tongues, namely, the abuse of speaking in public with- out an interpreter (and probably speaking more than one at a time [cf. 1 Cor 14:23, 27]) so that it all became a scene of unedifying confusion.
Concerning the proper public function of the use of tongues

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plus interpretation, or the proper private function of speaking in tongues, Paul is elsewhere quite positive (1 Cor 12:10-11, 21-22,14:4, 5,18,26-28, 39). So to use Paul’s discussion of an abuse of tongues in 14:20-23 as the basis for a general polemic against all other (acceptable) uses of tongues is quite contrary to the entire context in 1 Corinthians 12-14.

This crucial point, essential to understanding Paul’s meaning here, is completely overlooked by some Reformed and dispensational interpreters of this passage. For example, the fact that Paul is talking not about tongues with interpretation but about uninterpreted tongues (which were not able to be understood by the hearers) is overlooked by O. Palmer Robertson,71 and also by Zane Hodges.72 Neither Robertson nor Hodges adequately takes account of the fact that at Corinth any unbeliever who entered, whether Jew or Gentile, would not understand what was spoken in tongues. Paul repeatedly says that uninterpreted tongues could not be understood by the hearers at Corinth (see 1 Cor 14:2, 9, 11, 14, 16, 19, 23, 28). In fact, Paul’s main concern in 1 Corinthians 14 is to contrast intelligible with unintelligible speech.

In this connection, Robertson argues that tongues were a ‘sign’ of the transition between God’s dealing with Israel and his dealing with all nations.73 That might possibly be true in some contexts (such as Acts 22), but it is totally foreign to the context of 1 Corinthians 12-14, where Paul makes no mention of the Gentile inclusion or of judgement on the Jews—he contrasts not ‘Jews’ and ‘Gentiles’ but ‘believers’ and ‘unbelievers’. And because he does not specify Jewish unbelievers, while there were certainly Gentile unbelievers visiting the church at Corinth as well, we must understand ‘unbeliever’ here as referring to unbelievers generally (both Jewish unbelievers and Gentile unbelievers). Paul is using Isaiah 28:11-12 not as a prediction about Jewish unbelievers, but as an example or illustration (with reference to unbelievers generally). Realizing this, Carson is right to conclude that Paul cannot be speaking here of tongues as a sign of a covenantal curse on unbelieving Jews.74

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Moreover, neither Robertson, nor Gaffin, nor Macarthur, all of whom use this ‘covenantal curse’ interpretation to argue against tongues today, take enough account of the fact that Paul’s solution in this passage is not to forbid the use of tongues altogether, but to direct that tongues be used with interpretation (1 Cor 14:27-28). Since Paul approves tongues with interpretation, they cannot be a judgement sign on unbelieving Jews.


Conclusion: How is prophecy a sign of God’s blessing?

Returning now to a consideration of prophecy, we are in a position to understand 1 Corinthians 14:24-25 more clearly. ‘If you all prophesy’ in verse 24 is probably to be understood as a hypothetical situation which Paul need not have thought would ever actually occur (note 1 Cor 12:29, ‘not all prophesy, do they?’).

Nevertheless, if several people prophesy, the outsider is ‘convicted’ of sin and ‘called to account’ by several different people (1 Cor 14:24), presumably in different ways or with respect to different matters. In this way the secret sins of his heart are ‘disclosed’ (1 Cor 14:25).

But does this passage mean that specific sins of a specific individual are mentioned in the prophecies? Might it not mean rather that there is some general preaching about sin, and the Holy Spirit applies it specifically to an individual’s heart, giving a sense of conviction of sin?

Although verse 24 might simply mean that the outsider hears some general prophecy or preaching and is inwardly convicted of his sin, this cannot be true of verse 25. Verse 25 must mean that specific mention of one or more of his particular, individual sins is made in the prophecies.75

This is true because of the meaning of the word used and because of the context. The word for ‘disclosed’ or ‘become manifest’ is the Greek termphaneros. Both this word (eighteen times in the New Testament) and its related verb, phaneroo,

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(forty-nine times in the New Testament) always refer to a pub- lie, external manifestation, and are never used of private or secret communication of information, or of the internal working of God in a person’s mind or heart.
With regard to the context, the reaction of the outsider— ‘falling on his face he will worship God, declaring, ‘Truly God is among you’—is not normally one that accompanies even good preaching, but Paul seems quite sure that it will happen. Now Paul might have thought this would happen occasionally with a mention of general kinds of sins, but the statement as it applies to every situation like this is more understandable if he thought the prophecies would contain something very striking and unusual, such as specific mention of the visitor’s sins. The visitor will think that these Christians know things that could only have been revealed to them by God; they know the secrets of his heart! It seems to be the fact of knowledge acquired by ‘supernatural’ means, not merely the conviction of sin, which effectively convinces the outsider of God’s presence.

I have heard a report of this happening in a clearly non- charismatic Baptist church in the United States. A missionary speaker paused in the middle of his message and said some- thing like this: I didn’t plan to say this but it seems the Lord is indicating that someone in this church has just walked out on his wife and family. If that is so, let me tell you that God wants you to return to them and learn to follow God’s pattern for family life.’ The missionary did not know it, but in the unlit balcony sat a man who had entered the church moments before for the first time in his life. The description fitted him exactly and he came forward and acknowledged his sin and began to seek God.

This is why it is prophecy (rather than some other gift) which Paul calls a ‘sign to believers’. The distinctiveness of prophecy is that it must be based on revelation, and revelation as it functions in prophecy is always something which, Paul thinks, comes spontaneously and comes only from God (see Chapter 5). Where there is prophecy, then, it is an unmistakable sign or

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indication of God’s presence and blessing on the congregation —it is a ‘sign for believers’—and even an outsider who visits will be able to recognize this.

We can now summarize the function of prophecy in 1 Corinthians 14:20-25.

(i) Prophecy functions in evangelism to reveal the secrets of an unbeliever’s heart and thereby to amaze him with the power of God at work and to convict him of his sins.

(ii) In doing this, prophecy also serves as a certain indication (sign) that God is present and at work in the congregation to bless it and cause it to grow.

By implication from Paul’s example of the outsider we can further conclude that prophecy would also function from time to time to reveal the secrets of some believer’s heart, convicting him of sin and calling him to repentance. Although Paul does not cite this explicitly as a function of prophecy, it is certainly consistent with the picture of prophecy which we have found in these verses, and would fit perfectly well with Paul’s view of prophecy as resulting in edification and exhortation in 1 Corinthians 14:3-5. Furthermore, it would allow prophecy to function in this way as a sign for believers not just when an out- sider comes in, but at any time. Thus Paul’s statement ‘but prophecy is a sign for believers’ could be understood as a more general statement, not restricted to the specific application to which Paul puts it in 1 Corinthians 14:24-25.


Application for today

We should heed Paul’s warning to the Corinthians and not be childish or immature when we think about our congregational worship. Specifically, we should not speak in tongues without interpretation, for that would be giving an inappropriate ‘sign’ of God’s judgement on the unbeliever, driving him or her away. (Those churches which do allow speaking in tongues should do it in the orderly way described in 1 Corinthians 14:27, and always with interpretation, as in verse 28.)

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Mature thinking about prophecy would see it as something to be encouraged in the congregation, even when unbelievers are present. If prophecy is encouraged and allowed to function, it will convict both unbelievers and believers of sin, and will bring to the congregation a much more vivid sense that God is truly among them. It will be a ‘sign’ of God’s approval, of his presence, of his blessing on his people. We ought to see it as this and give thanks for it.


The Gift of Prophecy In the New Testament and Today, Wayne Grudem (1988) pp. 171-82


 
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To Swordsman1: Why would you try to mislead us about this if you have the actual paper? The author clearly states that these are termed Sacerdotal language.
He also writes; "Some reported cases of sacerdotal language cannot be regarded as a legitimate form of glossolalia for the obsolete words are understood by the speaker who may have learned them from elder colleagues. In this connection, one is reminded of the retention of Latin in the litanies of High Episcopal and Roman Catholic churches as well as the Orthodox church."
When I checked the web for some material by Jennings, the first one that I came across certainly showed its age (1968) where he made the rather odd following remark that I would expect would be rejected by all serious contemporary anthropologists, be they Christian or even atheists:

"Psychologists studying glossolalia are virtually unanimous in describing the phenomenon as ecstatic vocalization of sounds which do not, for the most part, constitute genuine language. The glossolalist enters a state of emotional exaltation in which, with individual variation and diverse environment, his behavior is symptomatic of somnambulism, hypnotism, catalepsy, or hysteria". (Jennings 1968)​

Having read numerous articles by those who are involved with speech analysis, very few seem to be prepared to provide any definite conclusions but Jennings remarks seem to reflect more of an earlier period where they knew very little if anything about Biblical Glossolalia.

Up until more recent years, the more exhuberant cessationist commentators used to try and connect Biblical tongues with that of the Greek oracles but through the research of numerous scholars any such connection has now been debunked.
 
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Why would you try to mislead us about this if you have the actual paper? The author clearly states that these are termed Sacerdotal language.
There is no misleading. Sacerdotal glossolalia is simply one type of glossolalia that is spoken by the priests of certain religions (the Dyaks, the shamens, and the "zar cult" in the list) that includes 'obsolete words'. It is still glossolalia. The speaker doesn't have a clue what he is saying, nor does anyone else.


He also writes; "Some reported cases of sacerdotal language cannot be regarded as a legitimate form of glossolalia for the obsolete words are understood by the speaker who may have learned them from elder colleagues. In this connection, one is reminded of the retention of Latin in the litanies of High Episcopal and Roman Catholic churches as well as the Orthodox church."
And those are not included in the list.

Nor were tongues of Acts 2 considered real human languages, but an ecstatic tongue caused by the power of the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
And yet you failed to prove your assertion or belief. I see no description of a gift in Acts 2.
Well now we are back to your implausible theory which virtually all respected theologians, including pentecostal and charistmatic, reject.

That is why we are told to test all spirits and they have spiritual discernment. The fact that some linguistic students would misrepresent Pentecostals speaking in tongues would be a sad indictment of the ethicalness of that school.

No they weren't faking it or making it up. I believe they simply discovered the technique of speaking glossolalia. I will find the paper and post a link to it.
 
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