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Ask God for Me

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Eight Foot Manchild

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@Oncedeceived, @Eight Foot Manchild, @Clizby WampusCat, and @cvanwey

... you all have me so confused now about the cosmological nature of the universe, I don't know who to believe!!!

...it began when it ended and ended when it began, or it ended before it began, or maybe it even began after it ended. :waaah: Jeez! Who knows?

I'm going to go take a baby aspirin and lay down for a while. ^_^

It pays to be married to a junior professor of astronomy and astrophysics.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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2PhiloVoid

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Like I said, Faith in scientific consensus which has a proven track record is reasonable based on the track record. Faith in a book and god that has no demonstrable track record is unreasonable. They are not equal.

Clizby, not every Christian abides by the assumption that the Creator's handiwork is just plain and evident in a prima facie manner. In fact, some would even go so far as to say that there won't be too much in the way of any clear indicators.

Let me ask you a question: Do you know the working differences between the Discovery Institute [Intelligent Design] and the BioLogos organization [~Theological Evolution]?
 
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Oncedeceived

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I mean the observable universe, plus whatever else there might be that we are, at least currently, incapable of studying. Things we've never imagined, and indeed might actually be incapable of imagining. I am not so naive as to claim that I know that the observable universe is all there is to reality. Certainly not enough to claim that I know it as a 'fact'.
The universe as we know it began meaning space, energy, time, and the laws of physics didn't exist and then existed from the BB.

I don't. Neither do you. Neither do any of the most brilliant minds who have made this their life's work.
There is a good consensus that space, energy, matter and time all were none existent and came to exist at the BB.

Your cosmological apologetic requires two things - a creation ex nihilo event from 'absolute nothing', and that the observable universe necessarily represents the totality of existence. Neither of those things are in evidence, and if you think you can get there by invoking the Big Bang, you are wrong.
Many scientists agree about the universe coming from nothing, even though some try to theorize what nothing could be without it being actually nothing; all that is necessary is our universe as to the description in the Bible.
 
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Oncedeceived

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I mean the observable universe, plus whatever else there might be that we are, at least currently, incapable of studying. Things we've never imagined, and indeed might actually be incapable of imagining. I am not so naive as to claim that I know that the observable universe is all there is to reality. Certainly not enough to claim that I know it as a 'fact'.
The universe as we know it began meaning space, energy, time, and the laws of physics didn't exist and then existed from the BB.

I don't. Neither do you. Neither do any of the most brilliant minds who have made this their life's work.
There is a good consensus that space, energy, matter and time all were none existent and came to exist at the BB.

Your cosmological apologetic requires two things - a creation ex nihilo event from 'absolute nothing', and that the observable universe necessarily represents the totality of existence. Neither of those things are in evidence, and if you think you can get there by invoking the Big Bang, you are wrong.
Many scientists agree about the universe coming from nothing, even though some try to theorize what nothing could be without it being actually nothing; all that is necessary is our universe as to the description in the Bible.
It does no show a designer. That is assumed. Evolutionary scientists can describe how this happens naturally, why discount that evidence?
 
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Oncedeceived

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It does no show a designer. That is assumed. Evolutionary scientists can describe how this happens naturally, why discount that evidence?
Do you have the evolutionary explanation for how this happens naturally?
 
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Oncedeceived

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Um, gonna have to disagree here... In that no one knows..... You claim to 'know.' But, like @Eight Foot Manchild already addressed, I too will be awaiting your Nobel speech ;)

Alan Guth himself admits the universe could be eternal.


And if this isn't enough, watch the 2 hour debate between Sean Carol and WLC, where Sean pulls video footage of Alan Guth stating 'the universe is likely eternal.'

Which begs the next question... If it is likely eternal, then I guess there exists no need for a creator?




Thank you. Yes, we don't have that information. But it sure seems like a head-scratcher... At some point in the 'past', God dwelled in 'nothingness'????

But, as we don't have this information, we don't have the information for the 'beginning' either. So to assert, as you are, is placing the cart before the horse ;)

Here is from Alan Guth:

Did the Universe Have a Beginning?
Finally, I would like to discuss the central topic of this session, the question of whether or not the universe had a beginning.

The name eternal inflation, as I pointed out earlier, could be phrased more accurately as future-eternal inflation. Everything that has been said so far implies only that inflation, once started, continues indefinitely into the future. It is more difficult to determine what can be said about the distant past.

For the explicit constructions of eternally inflating models, the answer is clear. Such models start with a state in which there are no pocket universes at all, just pure repulsive-gravity material filling space. So there is definitely a beginning to the models that we know how to construct.

In 1993 Borde and Vilenkin proved a theorem which showed under fairly plausible assumptions that every eternally inflating model would have to start with an initial singularity, and hence must have a beginning. In 1997, however, they noted that one of their assumed conditions, although valid at the classical level, was violated by quantum fluctuations that could be significant in eternally inflating models. They concluded that their earlier proof would not apply to such cases, so the door was open for the construction of models without a beginning. They noted, however, that no such models had been found.

At the present time, I think it is fair to say that it is an open question whether or not eternally inflating universes can avoid having a beginning. In my own opinion, it looks like eternally inflating models necessarily have a beginning. I believe this for two reasons. The first is the fact that, as hard as physicists have worked to try to construct an alternative, so far all the models that we construct have a beginning; they are eternal into the future, but not into the past. The second reason is that the technical assumption questioned in the 1997 Borde-Vilenkin paper does not seem important enough to me to change the conclusion, even though it does undercut the proof. Specifically, we could imagine approximating the laws of physics in a way that would make them consistent with the assumptions of the earlier Borde-Vilenkin paper, and eternally inflating models would still exist. Although those modifications would be unrealistic, they would not drastically change the behavior of eternally inflating models, so it seems unlikely that they would change the answer to the question of whether these models require a beginning.

So, as is often the case when one attempts to discuss scientifically a deep question, the answer is inconclusive. It looks to me that probably the universe had a beginning, but I would not want to place a large bet on the issue.

Acknowledgments
This work is supported in part by funds provided by the U.S. Department of Energy (D.O.E.) under cooperative research agreement #DF-FC02-94ER40818.

Topic Index Next >
Introduction
Show Related Topics
Contributed by: Dr. Alan Guth
 
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2PhiloVoid

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There is quite a bit of evidence that supports those claims.

Yeah, but it's not the kind of evidence he wants, Sis. So, what can you do in that case? :dontcare:
 
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Ed1wolf

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Do you...not understand what quote mining entails? If you're not considering a contrary position, you're ignoring it to present your position as vindicated without honestly looking at it for falsification
You were providing the contrary position, so there was no need for me to. I didn't say it vindicated my position, I was just presenting it as evidence for my position, that is what you do in debates.

mm: No, the quality of twoness is only something a mind conceives of, it doesn't exist in itself because we don't generally see the notions of quantity in nature independent of the mind. Not sure you're comprehending independent existence that well if you're suggesting that you counting something that existed before humans existed means that the quantities are substantive: they're abstract concepts, they don't exist in themselves because they require one to conceive of them in the mind
It doesn't matter what "we generally see". It is what the facts are. It is extremely likely that somewhere on the earth 65 mya there were two rocks under a tree. Are you denying that? Some abstract concepts are real without the existence of the mind, besides numbers, there is also the laws of physics. They existed long before any humans discovered them.

To be continued.
 
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the iconoclast

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I don't claim to be absolutely certain on such things

Hey hey my dear :)

I'm back.

Where r u @InterestedAtheist? While I wait for you to return @muichimotsu and I have some unfinished business.

I don't have absolute trust in my ability to reason, that does not harm my credibility

1. Why does a lack of trust in your ability not harm your credibility?

Credibility - 'the quality of being trusted and believed in.'

2.How much trust do you have in your ability to reason (.eg 99%, maybe its 3.16%)

3. Lets assume that your trust - in your ability to reason - is 99.98%, what is this small doubt you have?

Cheers, I'm going to go back through your history and read the things that you say. I like to know certain things. :)
 
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the iconoclast

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Hey @Kylie

I'm back, it's so good to know you are still regularly appearing here at CF. I pray for health and peace of mind for you, and your family.

I know you are a seeker of 'proof'. Have you sought out Jesus with all your heart since the last time I spoke with you. Were you willing to come to God on His terms and not yours?

If not, why not?

Cheers
 
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cvanwey

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Here is from Alan Guth:

Did the Universe Have a Beginning?
Finally, I would like to discuss the central topic of this session, the question of whether or not the universe had a beginning.

The name eternal inflation, as I pointed out earlier, could be phrased more accurately as future-eternal inflation. Everything that has been said so far implies only that inflation, once started, continues indefinitely into the future. It is more difficult to determine what can be said about the distant past.

For the explicit constructions of eternally inflating models, the answer is clear. Such models start with a state in which there are no pocket universes at all, just pure repulsive-gravity material filling space. So there is definitely a beginning to the models that we know how to construct.

In 1993 Borde and Vilenkin proved a theorem which showed under fairly plausible assumptions that every eternally inflating model would have to start with an initial singularity, and hence must have a beginning. In 1997, however, they noted that one of their assumed conditions, although valid at the classical level, was violated by quantum fluctuations that could be significant in eternally inflating models. They concluded that their earlier proof would not apply to such cases, so the door was open for the construction of models without a beginning. They noted, however, that no such models had been found.

At the present time, I think it is fair to say that it is an open question whether or not eternally inflating universes can avoid having a beginning. In my own opinion, it looks like eternally inflating models necessarily have a beginning. I believe this for two reasons. The first is the fact that, as hard as physicists have worked to try to construct an alternative, so far all the models that we construct have a beginning; they are eternal into the future, but not into the past. The second reason is that the technical assumption questioned in the 1997 Borde-Vilenkin paper does not seem important enough to me to change the conclusion, even though it does undercut the proof. Specifically, we could imagine approximating the laws of physics in a way that would make them consistent with the assumptions of the earlier Borde-Vilenkin paper, and eternally inflating models would still exist. Although those modifications would be unrealistic, they would not drastically change the behavior of eternally inflating models, so it seems unlikely that they would change the answer to the question of whether these models require a beginning.

So, as is often the case when one attempts to discuss scientifically a deep question, the answer is inconclusive. It looks to me that probably the universe had a beginning, but I would not want to place a large bet on the issue.

Acknowledgments
This work is supported in part by funds provided by the U.S. Department of Energy (D.O.E.) under cooperative research agreement #DF-FC02-94ER40818.

Topic Index Next >
Introduction
Show Related Topics
Contributed by: Dr. Alan Guth

Great. And as he later told Sean Carol, as Carol mentioned in his debate with WLC in 2016, he thinks the universe could be eternal? And like I said, no one knows (yet). It would appear there is not yet, nor may not ever be, enough data to assert one or the other? All scientists, work upon their hunch(es) alone, for now anyways....

But it seems clear here, that you really want the universe to have a true beginning. Otherwise, if the universe does indeed turn out to be eternal, that the concept of creation would instead possibly be a superfluous assertion? Whereas, if the universe did have a true beginning, we are still no closer to not only god(s), but God.

In essence, the creationist may stand to loose an awful lot, whereas the scientist sees no difference either way...?
 
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Eight Foot Manchild

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The universe as we know it began meaning space, energy, time, and the laws of physics didn't exist and then existed from the BB.
There is a good consensus that space, energy, matter and time all were none existent and came to exist at the BB.

Space and time, almost certainly yes. Energy, no. It is not known whether energy can be said to have ever 'begun'.

And if you're uncomfortable with an infinite regress, energy is a much better candidate for something timeless than a god is, as it does not necessitate a mountain of additional assumptions along with it, each requiring its own separate argument.

Many scientists agree about the universe coming from nothing

Some do, some don't, and almost none of them mean an 'absolute nothing' as necessitated by your apologetics.

It's all speculation anyway. It is absolutely not a 'fact', as you asserted earlier. Most, when pressed on what is actually demonstrable, will give the honest answer - 'we don't know'.

even though some try to theorize what nothing could be without it being actually nothing; all that is necessary is our universe as to the description in the Bible.

The Bible's description of the universe is, at best, not in evidence - such as depicting a creation ex nihilo - and at worst, wrong by billions of years - such as placing the formation of the Earth before the stars.

So, you'll be waiting a while on that.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Do you have the evolutionary explanation for how this happens naturally?
Not one I can explain in one post on the internet. Would you be willing to study the evidence as to why scientists are convinced that evolution happened and why I am convinced?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Yeah, but it's not the kind of evidence he wants, Sis. So, what can you do in that case? :dontcare:
It is not about evidence I want. It is about the quality of the evidence. Not all evidence is equal, some is bad and some is good.
 
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