Ask an Atheist

[Cearbhall]

The ethical consequences of believing that human dignity is but a social convention having no basis in reality...

Well, the reality of the situation is that it's entirely up to us to protect and live up to our ideals. The concept of human dignity is one example.

I wouldn't say that it has no basis in reality, though. This is reality. We've created a basis for it.

 

[Arsenios]

Well, the reality of the situation is that it's entirely up to us to protect and live up to our ideals. The concept of human dignity is one example.

I wouldn't say that it has no basis in reality, though. This is reality. We've created a basis for it.

Then you are embracing social metaphysics?
And whatever society believes is reality?
Society believing in human dignity is ontological human dignity?

It is an important issue...

I drive the streets of a major city, and people go out of their way to flip other people off and yell obscenities at them... It is a consequence of not believing in human dignity... So are the deaths of 60 million people in Russia in the last century - Starvation and the Gulags, not believing in human dignity...

It is a rather profound question, this basis for the ontology of human dignity, yes?

Arsenios

 

[Cearbhall]

Then you are embracing social metaphysics?

What does that mean?

 

[Arsenios]

What does that mean?

That whatever society believes is reality...

A.

 

[TBDude65]

What brings you to Christian Forums and how did you come across it?

I actually listed my reasons in another thread that I linked to in the OP of this thread. Here it is again: What does an atheist want you (a Christian) to know?

 

[TBDude65]

Please forgive me...



So the concept of human dignity is not central to your atheist understanding of man?

Did you give up on our conversation?

 

[Arsenios]

Did you give up on our conversation?

YOU - I don't think there is any objective "rock-bottom" to "human dignity."

Me - So does that mean that you think human dignity is entirely subjective?

YOU - I don't know, probably not (entirely subjective)

Me - And that it has no objective basis or existence?

YOU - I would think it would be connected to normal (entirely subjective) human emotions.
So I think as long as humans are around and living in societies,
(human dignity will) probably persist (as a function of normal human emotions)[/quote]

So it would seem that for you,
human dignity is a byproduct of human emotions
As a product of human society...

So that there is nothing dignified about human nature, but there is only this concept of human dignity that can be explained by human emotions in human society...

Am I understanding you yet?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

More simply:
Is human dignity a central feature of your atheist world view?
OR...
Is hunan dignity a peripheral annoyance to that world view?

Arsenios

 

[TBDude65]

More simply:
Is human dignity a central feature of your atheist world view?
OR...
Is hunan dignity a peripheral annoyance to that world view?

Arsenios

I don't have an "atheist worldview." I'm an atheist. You're still assuming things about what I believe and what you assume is incorrect.

What do you mean by "human dignity" if not a person's emotional attachment to the perception of themselves by others in the society in which they live?

 

[Arsenios]

I don't have an "atheist worldview."
I'm an atheist.

Alrighty then! I will leave you with THAT conundrum!

You're still assuming things about what I believe and what you assume is incorrect.

Is this your ASSUMPTION??

I mean, I probably am, but it is enormously helpful if you show me how I am fulfillinf your assumption...

What do you mean by "human dignity"
if not a person's emotional attachment
to the perception of themselves by others
in the society in which they live?

It is a term that refers to a feature of human nature...
That feature is not "emotional attachment" to one's own "social status" as you seem to be insisting on...
It is that feature of human nature that gives worth to others...
And not, as you said, insists on others giving one's self some social worth...
It is the human capacity for nobility of soul, and love of truth, and love of mankind...
And yes, even of one's love for one's neighbor...
Of man's capacity to embrace peace upon the earth,
And good-will among men...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

!!!BEARD-SLAP!!!

I must say that I really like your guy's love of his newly acquired beard!

Arsenios

 

[TBDude65]

Alrighty then! I will leave you with THAT conundrum!



Is this your ASSUMPTION??

I mean, I probably am, but it is enormously helpful if you show me how I am fulfillinf your assumption...



It is a term that refers to a feature of human nature...
That feature is not "emotional attachment" to one's own "social status" as you seem to be insisting on...
It is that feature of human nature that gives worth to others...
And not, as you said, insists on others giving one's self some social worth...
It is the human capacity for nobility of soul, and love of truth, and love of mankind...
And yes, even of one's love for one's neighbor...
Of man's capacity to embrace peace upon the earth,
And good-will among men...

Arsenios

An example of an assumption you make: being an atheist means having an "atheist worldview"

Being an atheist means I don't believe in a god. It doesn't define my worldview.

And given your rant on "human dignity," it's clear you don't really want my opinion and just wanted to set yourself up to preach. If you have any genuine questions, let me know

 

[TBDude65]

I must say that I really like your guy's love of his newly acquired beard!

Arsenios

It's a solid gif, no doubt

 

[Arsenios]

An example of an assumption you make: being an atheist means having an "atheist worldview"

Hard to avoid if you are going to be what you are...

Being an atheist means I don't believe in a god. It doesn't define my worldview.

It will define it as atheistic...

And given your rant on "human dignity," it's clear you don't really want my opinion and just wanted to set yourself up to preach.

Well, that is fairly disingenuous sour grapes, I should think...

I mean, after all, did you not ask this question?
________________________________________
What do you mean by "human dignity"
if not a person's emotional attachment
to the perception of themselves by others
in the society in which they live?

I mean, c'mon! All I did was answer YOUR question...

And then you fly-slap me because you did not like the answer?

If you have any genuine questions, let me know

Is human dignity a central feature of your atheist world view?
OR...
Is human dignity a peripheral annoyance to that world view?

Arsenios

 

[TBDude65]

Hard to avoid if you are going to be what you are...



It will define it as atheistic...



Well, that is fairly disingenuous sour grapes, I should think...

I mean, after all, did you not ask this question?
________________________________________
What do you mean by "human dignity"
if not a person's emotional attachment
to the perception of themselves by others
in the society in which they live?

I mean, c'mon! All I did was answer YOUR question...

And then you fly-slap me because you did not like the answer?



Is human dignity a central feature of your atheist world view?
OR...
Is human dignity a peripheral annoyance to that world view?

Arsenios

Human dignity doesn't factor into me being an atheist in any way whatsoever


Edit to add:
My question was rhetorical
Being an atheist doesn't mean my worldview is defined by it. I'm a 49ers fan too, does that mean I have a 49ers worldview? (That question too is rhetorical because the obvious answer should be "no")

 

[Arsenios]

Human dignity doesn't factor into me being an atheist in any way whatsoever

Thank-you...
You have affirmed your cognitive disconnect between your being an atheist and your understanding of human dignity... eg You think they are fundamentally unrelated...

So next question: Do you know any well known atheists who are great advocates of human dignity?

Edit to add:
My question was rhetorical

For you there is no question that it was...

Being an atheist doesn't mean my worldview is defined by it.

That is why I asked...

But the denial of the existence of God IS a world-view, of necessity...
As is the affirmation...

Hence the question for human dignity and its foundation in an atheist world view.

I'm a 49ers fan too, does that mean I have a 49ers worldview?

PROBABLY!

(That question too is rhetorical because the obvious answer should be "no")

Only if you are NOT a 49ers fan might it EVEN be obvious...

Are you REALLY denying that you are a 49ers fan???


Arsenios

ps - A viable sense of humor is a blessed asset...

 

[TBDude65]

Thank-you...
You have affirmed your cognitive disconnect between your being an atheist and your understanding of human dignity... eg You think they are fundamentally unrelated...

So next question: Do you know any well known atheists who are great advocates of human dignity?



For you there is no question that it was...



That is why I asked...

But the denial of the existence of God IS a world-view, of necessity...
As is the affirmation...

Hence the question for human dignity and its foundation in an atheist world view.



PROBABLY!



Only if you are NOT a 49ers fan might it EVEN be obvious...

Are you REALLY denying that you are a 49ers fan???


Arsenios

ps - A viable sense of humor is a blessed asset...

"Thank-you...
You have affirmed your cognitive disconnect between your being an atheist and your understanding of human dignity... eg You think they are fundamentally unrelated..."

Being an atheist means not believing in a god. That is it. Trying to draw a connection between an absence of belief in something and an unrelated topic is a non sequitur.

"So next question: Do you know any well known atheists who are great advocates of human dignity?"

Nope, because I don't care about the topic and have not looked for any such people or subjects.

But the denial of the existence of God IS a world-view, of necessity...

Incorrect. My atheism only tells you I don't hold a theistic worldview. It does not inform you of my naturalist worldview.

Why is it important to you for my worldview to be defined by my atheism?

 

[Arsenios]

"Thank-you...
You have affirmed your cognitive disconnect between your being an atheist and your understanding of human dignity... eg You think they are fundamentally unrelated..."

Being an atheist means not believing in a god. That is it. Trying to draw a connection between an absence of belief in something and an unrelated topic is a non sequitur.

"So next question: Do you know any well known atheists who are great advocates of human dignity?"

Nope, because I don't care about the topic and have not looked for any such people or subjects.

But the denial of the existence of God IS a world-view, of necessity...

Incorrect. My atheism only tells you I don't hold a theistic worldview. It does not inform you of my naturalist worldview.

Why is it important to you for my worldview to be defined by my atheism?

Yah-but WHAT ABOUT THE 49ers?

I mean, c'mon!

Have you no poetry in your SOUL???

Joe Montana is a whole world-view unto hisse'f!!!

Ya gotta be LOGICAL 'bout deez t'ings!

You'll NEVER have a beard at this rate!

Arsenios

 

[TBDude65]

Yah-but WHAT ABOUT THE 49ers?

I mean, c'mon!

Have you no poetry in your SOUL???

Joe Montana is a whole world-view unto hisse'f!!!

Ya gotta be LOGICAL 'bout deez t'ings!

You'll NEVER have a beard at this rate!

Arsenios

I was raised in the Steve Young to Jerry Rice era of 49ers history. One can't deny the power of Montana, but Young will always be my favorite 49ers QB.

 

[Dave-W]

Joe Montana is a whole world-view unto hisse'f!!!

I think we stopped in West Yellowstone back in 1961, but that is the only town in Montana I have ever visited. Definitely NOT the city of Joe.
I think it was called Ismay back then.