Ask an atheist!

[Mjallhvit]

Your high intellect is making you miss the Kingdom of God It's sad you have no room for the supernatural, spiritual realm or things you can't see and logicaly deduce. Submit your mind to God and He will add wisdom to your knowledge.

Do you realise that you are saying to me, "For no reason I can possibly give you, you ought to conform to beliefs that you consider not only impossibly false, but also pernicious to oneself and human society." That kind of anti-rationality/anti-reality seems to work just about as well to enjoin strangers to rob and murder people they'd ordinarily rather sell shoes to. Like the doctrines of democracy, socialism and anti-reason in general there is no quality more dangerous to human society than the human acceptance of what one perceives to be wrong, who lets what he hears supercede what he is told. I'm not the first person to say it, if those are the kind of people in Heaven I think I'd rather burn. Of course, no such dilemma actually exists and I cannot recall a time when they ever concerned me.

 

[ClausJohn]

Your ability to put into words these apologetics is outstanding. But i fear that the atheists here do not want to hear the truth and are set in their ways .

Set in my ways? No, give me proof and i will believe. It's as simple as that. But i cannot speak for other atheists, only for myself.
Unfortunately, no proof was ever given, and most likely never will be. It could be as simple as Moses' staff turning into a snake. The bible is full of incidents where unbelievers have to be given proof of god. And invariably god is wiling to give it, even though sometimes it's accompanied by some quite bad "side effects". Part the sea, heal the dead, create something out of nothing, strike down people and cities, turn water into blood or wine...but in a way that cannot easily be explained by natural causes or human doing - make it *obvious*. Then i'll believe.

I think this video (and it's second part) sum up my view on this very well: http://youtube.com/watch?v=_rqUsC2KsiI

 

[elephunky]

I can understand why athiests hate religions and certain religions, as some people use it to exploit people.

I do have athiestic friends, but do not talk about my faith with them as it can cause a lot of arguements and hostility. But, I want to know, do you feel like there is something missing in your life? That there might be a bigger reason for it all.

 

[ClausJohn]

First off, i don't hate religions - or any god. It's just some followers of the religions i sometimes clash with

And no, i do not miss anything, neither the promise of heaven, nor for there to be any reason behind it all. In fact i cannot understand why so many people are longing for there to be one. I suppose it's how our brain works, trying to recognize patterns in everything, even when there are none. It certainly makes sense: Better to mistake some shadows behind a bush as a potential enemy than to not recognize an actual enemy hiding behind a bush. We're just wired that way. It's the reason it's so easy for us to see objects in clouds and other natural phenomena, when a computer struggles with the same task.

In just the same way as i could wish for a billion dollar just appering on my desk, i might know that it is certainly possible that it could actually happen, but at the same time i know that the probability for it is so incredibly small, that it's not even worth thinking about.

 

[KevinDeath]

I know as a former atheist that it's just a lack of belief in a god. But I have a question, do you believe only in what humans touch, smell, see, hear, and taste?

Do you believe only in things that can be tested and proven?

 

[ClausJohn]

Well, belief is by definition regarding something as true without needing proof - so whatever i can sense, measure or infer logically out of these facts is not belief, but knowing.
Still, there are many things i hold as true without needing proof, since they cannot be proven. Gravity for example still lacks proof but is (i suppose) universally accepted.
I do not believe in the supernatural of any kind, if that is the question - my world view is quite materialistic.

 

[KevinDeath]

Well, belief is by definition regarding something as true without needing proof - so whatever i can sense, measure or infer logically out of these facts is not belief, but knowing.
Still, there are many things i hold as true without needing proof, since they cannot be proven. Gravity for example still lacks proof but is (i suppose) universally accepted.
I do not believe in the supernatural of any kind, if that is the question - my world view is quite materialistic.

Yes I understand your reasoning. So if there is no supernatural world as you describe, what do you say of dreams?

Where do you get your morals from?

Is everything random sequence, or is does everything happen for a reason?

 

[Blackguard_]

So if there is no supernatural world as you describe, what do you say of dreams?

Uhh, dreams are your brain projecting images, sounds, textures, etc. to display a world/narrative of various levels of coherency. You know how you can imagine and visualize something in your mind even though you could never physically see such a thing? It's like that but much more and you have less concious control (dreams can be really fun when you are fully aware you're dreaming though)

Is everything random sequence, or is does everything happen for a reason?

false dichotomy. Order doesn't have to have reason.

And no, i do not miss anything, neither the promise of heaven, nor for there to be any reason behind it all. In fact i cannot understand why so many people are longing for there to be one.

I can't understand how someone would want Heaven to not be the case. Do they find life that boring?

I can understand accepting there is no afterlife, but not wanting there to be one?

I suppose it's how our brain works, trying to recognize patterns in everything, even when there are none. It certainly makes sense: Better to mistake some shadows behind a bush as a potential enemy than to not recognize an actual enemy hiding behind a bush. We're just wired that way. It's the reason it's so easy for us to see objects in clouds and other natural phenomena, when a computer struggles with the same task.

I don't see what this has to do with heaven, although I have heard this as an explanation of the origins of belief int he supernatural/agency in nature. Maybe you're thinking of simple survival insticts?

Anyway, that instinct to recognize patterns turned out to be right; what is Science if not a catalog of patterns?

 

[KevinDeath]

Uhh, dreams are your brain projecting images, sounds, textures, etc. to display a world/narrative of various levels of coherency. You know how you can imagine and visualize something in your mind even though you could never physically see such a thing? It's like that but much more and you have less concious control (dreams can be really fun when you are fully aware you're dreaming though)

Yes, that's a theory as well. It's not a fact though.

false dichotomy. Order doesn't have to have reason.

This question was toward him not you.

 

[Blackguard_]

Yes, that's a theory as well. It's not a fact though.

What do you think dreams are then? Your soul visiting a spirit-realm?

This question was toward him not you.

O... k.

 

[KevinDeath]

What do you think dreams are then? Your soul visiting a spirit-realm?


O... k.

Dreams are dreams, it could mean a multitude of things. I believe it's something to do with the spirit, and perhaps a different realm yes.

 

[ClausJohn]

Yes I understand your reasoning. So if there is no supernatural world as you describe, what do you say of dreams?

Just because science has no clear explanation of dreams doesn't mean there isn't one. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. As no proof of "supernatural" dreams exists, they are quite mundane.
Science never claims to have the answer to everything. Scientists would be out of a job if there were no more gaps to fill. Still, that science has no answer does not make something supernatural by default. Humanity had no scientific explanation for infections and other sicknesses for a long time, yet today we know what causes them.

Where do you get your morals from?

From myself.
Buddhists don't have a god. Where do they get their morals from? Or do you believe they don't have morals?

Is everything random sequence, or is does everything happen for a reason?

random =!= the opposite of "for a reason". What Blackguard said.
But i'll just answer the two separately:
- No, i do not think there is any reason behind anything.
- I do believe that the world works inherently un-random on a low level, we just have the illusion of randomness, of order and of free will. Though i admit that in the light of quantum mechanics this *might* not be completely true...but i have yet to find a good and understandable explanation of that

I can't understand how someone would want Heaven to not be the case. Do they find life that boring?I can understand accepting there is no afterlife, but not wanting there to be one?

I think i explained quite clearly. It does not matter what i *want*, it's just not there. Of course heaven would be great. If i had proof of it, and i could find evidence that suicide would not kick me to straight hell i would immediately kill myself. Why waste time here, right?
Besides, the question should rather be: If *you* believe in heaven, why don't you look forward to death? As i have no heaven to look forward too, i'm obviously living my life happily and trying to make the most of it.
Or to use my previous example: To have a billion dollars appearing on one's desk is almost certainly a beneficial thing. Why don't you believe in that? Same here. Not believing in it doesn't mean i wouldn't want it to happen.

 

[Blackguard_]

think i explained quite clearly. It does not matter what i *want*, it's just not there. Of course heaven would be great.

I guess that's what I get for not reading the rest of the thread

If i had proof of it, and i could find evidence that suicide would not kick me to straight hell i would immediately kill myself. Why waste time here, right?

For one, I don't beleive Heaven is Automatic Wish-Fulfillment Land, and such a display of impatience and not being content with what you have will probably get you "the room next to the noisy ice-machine for all eternity" as a Weird Al song put it.

With Heaven you have eternity, there is no rush, for me at least, I'm happy with my present life.

 

[ClausJohn]

See, that's the problem. What makes you think it is as you think it is? Why can't heaven not just last - say - 30 years before they have to make room for the "new arrivals"? Why couldn't heaven be the "automatic wish-fulfillment land"? Or maybe heaven is actually hell and all religions are a really elaborate ruse by satan. Or aliens. Or Zeus.
That's why i think even considering it is pointless - if you allow for one possible heaven, you have to think of *aaaaaalllll* the alternatives.

Certain extremists seem to think different from you - if your life is just bad enough, and you are religious, you might even let religion overcome your instinct of self-preservation. Which is just one more reason for me being an atheist.

So far no religion has ever come up with any objective, conclusive proof of their afterlife, among other things. As stated in the video i posted earlier, a religion who could do this would either become *the* world religion or at least get a massive amount of converts, among them me.

 

[CtrlSinZ]

do you have a sense of humor? Not to sound ignorant, but is the phrase "all dressed up and nowhere to go" on an atheist's tombstone funny to you?
I think it is hilarious

 

[KevinDeath]

Just because science has no clear explanation of dreams doesn't mean there isn't one. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. As no proof of "supernatural" dreams exists, they are quite mundane.
Science never claims to have the answer to everything. Scientists would be out of a job if there were no more gaps to fill. Still, that science has no answer does not make something supernatural by default. Humanity had no scientific explanation for infections and other sicknesses for a long time, yet today we know what causes them.

Perhaps I wrote that wrong, I was asking what you think of dreams. I didn't want to imply they are supernatural or anything, everybody has them.

From myself.
Buddhists don't have a god. Where do they get their morals from? Or do you believe they don't have morals?

Think about that, hard. From yourself? Meaning you already have a sense of morality instilled within you? Or from external influences such as parents?

I think everybody has an inner sense of what feels good, and what feels bad. Not necesarily right and wrong though because we rationalize our actions depending on the situation.

Do you read up on nihilism? I was all about it for awhile, in fact I still read alot of what they have to say, very intelligent people.

 

[ClausJohn]

Perhaps I wrote that wrong, I was asking what you think of dreams. I didn't want to imply they are supernatural or anything, everybody has them.

Ah, okay then. I have no idea what dreams are about or what purpose they serve - and i don't care. The few dreams i remember when waking up usually have a connection to what i experienced earlier on, so i don't think they're special in any way.

Think about that, hard. From yourself? Meaning you already have a sense of morality instilled within you? Or from external influences such as parents?

Well, yes, of course - influences from philosophy, parents, religion, etc. But in the end it is only me that picks and chooses what is right for me.

I think everybody has an inner sense of what feels good, and what feels bad. Not necesarily right and wrong though because we rationalize our actions depending on the situation.

I do not believe in any objective truth, so also not in a universal right and wrong. Yes, certainly everyone knows what feels good or bad for them. The tricky part for someone growing up without any guidance would probably be to rationalize that society works best if we're "good" to each other. And i believe that this is why we have developed language and writing - so that what we consider as "good behaviour" is more easily given to the next generation.
That being said, i might remark that i do not see it as contradiction to get my morals also from religion. There are important things to be learned from the bible - and other holy books as well. But if you don't pick and choose and instead regard the whole writing as a all-or-nothing package, you get a lot of stuff that's outdated or outright wrong. Certainly no sane person would consider living by *some* of the laws in the old testament...

Do you read up on nihilism? I was all about it for awhile, in fact I still read alot of what they have to say, very intelligent people.

No, i didn't. But glancing at the description of it on wikipedia - i might possibly be considered one. But i'm not too fond of labels...i have enough trouble with the fine difference between Agnostic and Atheist already

 

[Yekcidmij]

I do not believe in any objective truth, so also not in a universal right and wrong.

Yes you do.

 

[KevinDeath]

Ah, okay then. I have no idea what dreams are about or what purpose they serve - and i don't care. The few dreams i remember when waking up usually have a connection to what i experienced earlier on, so i don't think they're special in any way.


Well, yes, of course - influences from philosophy, parents, religion, etc. But in the end it is only me that picks and chooses what is right for me.


I do not believe in any objective truth, so also not in a universal right and wrong. Yes, certainly everyone knows what feels good or bad for them. The tricky part for someone growing up without any guidance would probably be to rationalize that society works best if we're "good" to each other. And i believe that this is why we have developed language and writing - so that what we consider as "good behaviour" is more easily given to the next generation.
That being said, i might remark that i do not see it as contradiction to get my morals also from religion. There are important things to be learned from the bible - and other holy books as well. But if you don't pick and choose and instead regard the whole writing as a all-or-nothing package, you get a lot of stuff that's outdated or outright wrong. Certainly no sane person would consider living by *some* of the laws in the old testament...


No, i didn't. But glancing at the description of it on wikipedia - i might possibly be considered one. But i'm not too fond of labels...i have enough trouble with the fine difference between Agnostic and Atheist already

I see.

Well, belief is by definition regarding something as true without needing proof - so whatever i can sense, measure or infer logically out of these facts is not belief, but knowing.

So basically, all that we know is all that there is? (Knowing meaning touch,smell,see,hear,taste as we discussed before)

Or is there a possibility that what we know isn't everything?

 

[ClausJohn]

Yes you do.

Care to elaborate...?

So basically, all that we know is all that there is? (Knowing meaning touch,smell,see,hear,taste as we discussed before)

No. I have never touched, smelled, seen, heard or tasted Australia, yet i know it's there. And i have already given the example of gravity.

Or is there a possibility that what we know isn't everything?

By your definition, obviously yes. But i see your definition of "knowing" as flawed.
But please make your point...