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Ask an atheist!

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Deductive and inductive reasoning are still dependent on reasoning. Reasoning is only valid if you reason without flaw. Furthermore, you must weigh every possible permutation of reality. Can you truly say that you have done that at the age of 18? Can anyone say this? I think not. That's why a measure of faith is involved whichever path you choose -- to believe God or not.

It's not necessary to commit intellectual suicide to believe in God or to be a Christian. Many highly intelligent people (and high IQ, which are not necessarily one and the same) are Christians.

A few good books on this topic are:

Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis (one-time atheist and Oxford professor; brilliant man & theologian)

A Case for Faith by Lee Strobel (one-time atheist & acclaimed investigative reporter in Chicago)

An interesting web site to read: http://www.probe.org/component/opti...ion,content/task,category/sectionid,10/id,48/

Best of luck on your journey to finding the truth! I hope you find the answers you're looking for here at this site. Have a good day!


One doesn't need to examine all possible avenues to come to non-belief in something. If I were to tell you that a teapot is in orbit around the Sun, would you have to examine every inch of the sky to prove me wrong to be justified in your disbelief? No, you only need ask, "show me." If I cannot show you, then you have every right to drop the issue there and rightly doubt my claim.

(This is a concept called Russell's Teapot.)
 
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andross77

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Your post brings an important point to mind. One cannot choose to believe in something. Phrases like the ones you use along with popular ones like "take a leap of faith" mean absolutely nothing to someone who doesn't already believe, because these are not conscious choices or decisions. Beliefs are consequences of our experience, not choices.

I would like to ask you to submit your mind to Ahuramazda and let him teach you. It didn't work, did it? You aren’t believing hard enough.

I disagree. You can choose to believe in something. I choose to believe that Jesus REALLY lived 2000 years ago and REALLY died for my REAL sins. I choose to believe that. Yes, the Father drew me to Himself to make that conclusion but i also chose it. It's a mystery (freewill + God's sovereignty both existing) we won't understand until we see Him face to face. Kinda like the Trinity.

Beliefs come from life experiences, but they are also choices. Everything is always both. Everyone's life experiences, in one way or the other, affect what they believe. This is obvious and it's true of everyone. We also choose what to believe. We choose whether to let our life experiences guide us completely to our decisions or if we will "sit and think about it and make a decision on facts and information we have drawn from separate sources" (like going out of our way).
 
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andross77

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One doesn't need to examine all possible avenues to come to non-belief in something. If I were to tell you that a teapot is in orbit around the Sun, would you have to examine every inch of the sky to prove me wrong to be justified in your disbelief? No, you only need ask, "show me." If I cannot show you, then you have every right to drop the issue there and rightly doubt my claim.

(This is a concept called Russell's Teapot.)

Interesting concept. I still believe you will be called to account for not thoroughly inspecting Christianity's Truth claims. And if you have and still reject them, at least you have that going for you...

You will still be called to account for rejecting God's perfect Messenger but at least you put forth the effort to really see if there is any truth claim to this religion. As an atheist/agnostic you must do that for all religions, and then if you reject them all in favor of "reason" you have to stand by that decision.

God has graciously shown me His Truth in His Son and so I can stop searching for Truth. Now i just need to let others like yourself know about it.
 
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Interesting concept. I still believe you will be called to account for not thoroughly inspecting Christianity's Truth claims. And if you have and still reject them, at least you have that going for you...

You will still be called to account for rejecting God's perfect Messenger but at least you put forth the effort to really see if there is any truth claim to this religion. As an atheist/agnostic you must do that for all religions, and then if you reject them all in favor of "reason" you have to stand by that decision.

God has graciously shown me His Truth in His Son and so I can stop searching for Truth. Now i just need to let others like yourself know about it.


Atheism isn't an outright rejection of god/gods/the supernatural/etc. Though many atheists do this (called "strong" atheists), I do not. I wholeheartedly support the possibility of these things. Possibilities, though, are not beliefs. If I were to examine every possibility for something before being able to doubt it and not adopt it, I'd be occupied all day with meaningless searches for unicorns, fairies, and flying spagetti monsters. Atheism is simply a lack of belief, and belief in gods is something I completely lack.

I've put forth much effort, I'm not convinced of anything. I'm not being arrogant here, I simply haven't. What convinced those who do believe?
 
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Yekcidmij

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There is a teapot in an elliptical orbit around the Sun. We cannot observe it by any means that we yet have, because it's incredibly small and very far away. Prove me wrong, or else you have no other choice but to believe.

See how crazy that sounds? It isn’t your job to prove me wrong, but for me to show you that my claim is true. If I cannot do that, why should I be surprised that you don’t believe me?


Of course. And I totally agree with what you are saying. I, like you and every reasonable person, have no reason whatsoever to believe a teapot is orbiting the sun. There is no reason.

But unlike the teapot, there is reason to believe in God. Here, I'll give you one of the several dozen good reasons that are floating around and it's the reason from objective moral values. It goes like this:

1. If God does not exist objective moral values do not exist.
2. Objective moral values do exist.
3. Therefore, God exists

For example, it's always wrong to rape children no matter who you are or where you come from. But where does this idea that it's wrong come from? Why are things right or wrong? In my Christian view, I believe that morality is a reflection of God's character and is a very good reason to believe God exists.

If God doesn't exist, then our morality is arbitrary and baseless and ultimately reduces to personal preference/subjectivsim/relativism. This position is very difficult to defend and attempting to defend it, I think, helps further prove that morality is objective and not subjective.

There are many more reasons to believe that He exists too. But now I have given one reason, and a very good one I think, to believe in God and no reasons exist at all to believe in Russell's teapot or Dawkins' flying spaghetti monster.
 
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Ephesians4

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One doesn't need to examine all possible avenues to come to non-belief in something. If I were to tell you that a teapot is in orbit around the Sun, would you have to examine every inch of the sky to prove me wrong to be justified in your disbelief? No, you only need ask, "show me." If I cannot show you, then you have every right to drop the issue there and rightly doubt my claim.

(This is a concept called Russell's Teapot.)

How sad. If that is true, a person could theoretically never believe in anything intangible. For the stubborn, there could never be enough proof for even something as basic as love. Before you dismiss that though, I'm sure there are plenty of people who do not believe in love (or real love) or perhaps don't even understand love because they have never experienced it. Yes, thankfully it does exist, whether they choose to believe it or not.

(BTW, in my post, I was referring to reasoning, not belief.)
 
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Ephesians4

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Your beliefs (or lackthereof) do not alter absolute truth. Absolute truth stands like a shining beacon. You can choose to seek it out, like a ship on a stormy night. Or, you can choose not to. But, whatever stands outside absolute truth is indeed falsehood.
 
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andross77

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Atheism isn't an outright rejection of god/gods/the supernatural/etc. Though many atheists do this (called "strong" atheists), I do not. I wholeheartedly support the possibility of these things. Possibilities, though, are not beliefs. If I were to examine every possibility for something before being able to doubt it and not adopt it, I'd be occupied all day with meaningless searches for unicorns, fairies, and flying spagetti monsters. Atheism is simply a lack of belief, and belief in gods is something I completely lack.

I've put forth much effort, I'm not convinced of anything. I'm not being arrogant here, I simply haven't. What convinced those who do believe?

first i would like to lift a quote for Ravi Zacharias' website:

Isn’t it self-centered and immoral of God to condemn those who do not believe in Him on the grounds that there is just not sufficient proof offered for His existence? Now pause for a moment and think of the way that charge has been phrased. There are several assumptions here. The first is obvious--the invocation of a moral law…that God is morally bound to give us sufficient evidence. But a moral universe is a luxury an atheist cannot afford. There is, however, a not so obvious factor here.


Atheistic philosopher Bertrand Russell was once asked what he would say if he found himself standing before God after death. Russell said, “I will simply say to him, ‘You have not given me sufficient reason to believe in you.’” But to Russell I would say that evidence can be sufficient without being overbearing.

The fact is that God has given us one of the greatest privileges as human beings—Our free will. The privilege of self determination. That freedom is a necessary moral component of love. One cannot be credited with love, unless it is also the prerogative of that person not to love. For us to be truly free, there entails the possibility of us rejecting the love God offered to us.

May I propose to you that the atheist who demands a compelling evidence such that it is not possible to disbelieve, may in fact be demanding that which diminishes love at the same time. Ironically, it was Bertrand Russell who lived with numerous infidelities and betrayals. One has to wonder how a moral basis is invoked for the rejection of God’s love while the breaking of another love does not appear immoral. Quite duplicitous, I would think.

So rich is the body of evidence that God Himself reminds us that the problem is not the absence of evidence, rather the suppression of it. If Russell and others would apply the same tests for truth to the claims of Christ that they apply to other disciplines, they would find the evidence compelling. In short, the problem is that of the heart and not of the mind. One who says there is not enough evidence tells us more about himself than about this universe.

Let me also say this, nobody will end up in an eternity without God apart from their own choice to be such. In other words, even heaven would be hell for somebody who wanted to be autonomous in this world. They have made their choice to live in this world apart from God and in doing so, they make the choice to live in the next world apart from Him also. Maybe that is why Dostoevsky defined hell as the inability to love.

Here is the link.
Then i'll tell you a few things that convinced me of God's existence and specifically the God of the Bible.

1) The order of Creation. If you can look at all the wonderful things around us and NOT think a higher power put it all together, you must be crazy (imho of course). I mean there are 6 billion people, 70% of the world is covered in oceans, there are billions of insects, millions of animals, millions of different plant species. We are rotating on a ball in the middle of space. A little farther out and we'd freeze. A little closer and we'd burn. The intricacies of the human body. The fact that from one cell we get toenails, hair, mucus, skin, bone, cartilage, eyes, ears, lungs, etc is amazing to me! So Creation is #1. When i try to share my amazement at Creation, i've heard an atheist just reference the # of naturally aborted fetuses. How sad. Their eyes are totally blind to the beauty of creation when they choose just to observe a negative part that is a result of the Fall.

2)the textual evidence for Scripture. There is no other literary document in HISTORY that has more evidence of it's authenticity than Scripture. There is not even a close 2nd place. There are literally over 10,000 manuscripts relating to the Bible. We have NT manuscripts from the early 2nd century (~A.D. 130). This fact helps a lot of people that have "trouble with faith". People accept the authenticity of very early works like Homer's Odyssey and some of Plato's works and there might be 1 surviving manuscript. So #2 would be textual evidence. Search as much as you want but you will not find any piece of literature with as much support as the Bible.

3) Christianity answers the existential questions i have and makes sense as a whole more than any other book i've read. Who created me? God. What is my purpose in life? to glorify God. What happens after i die? heaven or hell depending on my relationship with Christ. Why does evil continue to happen? God allows people the choice of loving him or rebelling against him.

When i read about other religions, they just weren't ultimately satisfying, meaning they sounded like they were written by someone who's pretty smart and graduated from an Ivy League school, but not God. For example, when i read through the Satanic Bible one of the main messages was basically that "he who dies with the most material things, wins" b/c this is all there is. I know fundamentally in my core that this is just foolishness. I could go to any billionaire's grave, dig them up and kick their bones. Or i could put them in a grinder and grind them to dust. They can do nothing. They have no feeling, no enjoyment. If this is all there is, well their lives were pretty meaningless. When i look at how much attention to detail was given to all of Creation I know in my heart that this is not just all there is. This life on earth is important, SUPREMELY important. But Satan, sin and death have tainted it and until Jesus judges and renews the new heaven and new earth, we are bound here.

Again, you can look at many other religions, like taoism, buddhism, hinduism, new age stuff and you will find a similar theme: the downplay of humans and human living. For buddhists it's the eightfold path to Nirvana. For hindus it's constant reincarnation until perfection and then unity with the Source. For taoists it's more of an evolution past life on earth, just as the dead evolve past the realm of the dead.

All of these religions make it seem like you have forever to leave your bad ways behind and become good. If you don't do it this life, you will suffer a little, but then you have a chance to do it next life. Or some people will make it "there" in 10 years, others it will take 10,000 years. But the timing doesn't matter as long as you are going in the right direction.

This is a common lie of Satan through many of the world religions today. He wants us to believe that we have as much time as we need so that when we die, we are totally unprepared for judgement. The Bible says that man is appointed to live once and die once and then be judged. This fits in with the importance of life and the order of creation. So point #3 is that it just makes sense. It is more thorough and answers more questions fully than any other religion i've come across.

But obviously the #1 reason i believe is b/c Jesus drew me to Himself. I could not believe on my own for even Faith is a gift from above.

My fingers hurt, so i'm gonna stop typing for a bit, but i wanted to give you an answer for why i believe. I don't want you atheists thinking us Christians haven't thought things through. If only i was as smart as Ravi Zacharias or William Lane Craig i could beat you guys in these debates. :) But i'm not and anyways it's ultimately the Holy Spirit who will bring you to God, but i like to give it a go every once in a while anyways.

Blessings.
 
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andross77

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Or, do you not believe in absolute truth either? I mean, it can't be proven... :)

This is in fact true. An atheist by definition cannot believe in absolute truth b/c it can not be "proven" it must be accepted by faith on the great evidence of it. An atheist must get their morals from themselves or society. If an atheist believed in absolute truth then they would have to believe in an absolute truth giver. I mean they could say that absolute truth just exists in creation but then when they tried to define it, i could come up with an "absolute truth" different from theres and use the same support and they would have no way of saying i was wrong.
 
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Maxwell511

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This is in fact true. An atheist by definition cannot believe in absolute truth b/c it can not be "proven" it must be accepted by faith on the great evidence of it. An atheist must get their morals from themselves or society. If an atheist believed in absolute truth then they would have to believe in an absolute truth giver. I mean they could say that absolute truth just exists in creation but then when they tried to define it, i could come up with an "absolute truth" different from theres and use the same support and they would have no way of saying i was wrong.

I know absolute truth exists. In my view it is one of only two things that a person can truely know.

My reasoning for this is; in order for me to ponder the question of absolute truth I must accept that I exist. Basically I think therefore I am. My existance is an absolute truth, therefore absolute truth does exist.

I cannot deny my own existance and you cannot come up with anything that could make me do so.
 
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andross77

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I know absolute truth exists. In my view it is one of only two things that a person can truely know.

My reasoning for this is; in order for me to ponder the question of absolute truth I must accept that I exist. Basically I think therefore I am. My existance is an absolute truth, therefore absolute truth does exist.

I cannot deny my own existance and you cannot come up with anything that could make me do so.

The point is not whether you can tell whether absolute truth exists. Most people can agree to that. But as an atheist can you DEFINE absolute truth for me? And then where do you get that definition? We must go that direction.
 
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Maxwell511

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But as an atheist can you DEFINE absolute truth for me?

An absolute truth is a statement that cannot ever be false.

And then where do you get that definition?
We must go that direction.

From recognising that it is possible for me to not exist and the fact that I do. Basically from recognising that pairs of statements can be made about reality where one is false.
 
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andross77

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An absolute truth is a statement that cannot ever be false.



From recognising that it is possible for me to not exist and the fact that I do. Basically from recognising that pairs of statements can be made about reality where one is false.

You are dodging the question. We all know what the definition of absolute truth. I'm asking you to define the parameters. Like tell me what is absolute truth and what is not. Give me specifics. If you only have a definition and can not identify specific things that are always true and things that are false, you don't know what absolute truth is. You can define it but you can't identify it.
 
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Maxwell511

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You are dodging the question. We all know what the definition of absolute truth. I'm asking you to define the parameters. Like tell me what is absolute truth and what is not. Give me specifics. If you only have a definition and can not identify specific things that are always true and things that are false, you don't know what absolute truth is. You can define it but you can't identify it.

As I said my existence is an absolute truth. I am not making any claims about anything else. I cannot claim anything else to be absolutely true.

A question for you....

if God exists; can he make it absolutely true that he never existed?

Does God define truth?
 
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SonicBOOM

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As I said my existence is an absolute truth. I am not making any claims about anything else. I cannot claim anything else to be absolutely true.


alot of mystics would disagree with this.

"when I'm in bed dreaming that I'm a butterfly, how do I know that I'm not actully a butterfly dreaming that I'm a man?": Confusious

humans can not prove their own existanse, the only thing they have to go by is what makes sense to them And what proof is that? "I exist" is the only proof. The very foundation of life is circular logic. "I exist, because I exist". No proof there.
 
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Maxwell511

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alot of mystics would disagree with this.

"when I'm in bed dreaming that I'm a butterfly, how do I know that I'm not actully a butterfly dreaming that I'm a man?": Confusious

humans can not prove their own existanse, the only thing they have to go by is what makes sense to them And what proof is that? "I exist" is the only proof. The very foundation of life is circular logic. "I exist, because I exist". No proof there.

A thing that can question their existance must exist.

The proof is by contradiction. It would be contradictory to say that you do not exist because in order to make that statement you must exist.
 
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SonicBOOM

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A thing that can question their existance must exist.

not so true. A storybook charecter can easily be made to say "I exist", but does he really? Nope! He exists in a world created by an author. I can say "I exist" but all that means is that IF I existed I'd be smart enough to say "I exist". Humans can't prove their own existance. We have no proof on what "reality" really is. What if we are all just charecter's in someone's story and we don't really exist?

Now before you go into scientific logic. Consider this. science is a story created by a foundation that we assume exists. How do we know this? we don't... so science would be useless if that foundation didn't exist? whats that foundation? The fact that we exist and everything around us is real.

This is very dangerious thinking and it's cult doctines... so i will tread this carefully. Though i like to use this to show atheist people that logic starts on a foundation that may or may not even exist.
 
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Maxwell511

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not so true. A storybook charecter can easily be made to say "I exist", but does he really? Nope! He exists in a world created by an author. I can say "I exist" but all that means is that IF I existed I'd be smart enough to say "I exist". Humans can't prove their own existance. We have no proof on what "reality" really is. What if we are all just charecter's in someone's story and we don't really exist?

Can you question your existance?

Now before you go into scientific logic. Consider this. science is a story created by a foundation that we assume exists. How do we know this? we don't... so science would be useless if that foundation didn't exist? whats that foundation? The fact that we exist and everything around us is real.

Personally I think what we call scientific knowledge is a great methaphor. There is the universe and then there is our understanding of it. I don't think science produces knowledge it produces understanding.

This is very dangerious thinking and it's cult doctines... so i will tread this carefully. Though i like to use this to show atheist people that logic starts on a foundation that may or may not even exist.

I don't understand this at all.
 
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SonicBOOM

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Can you question your existance?

yes but all that means is that IF I existed I'd be conceince of it. But it doesn't prove that I actully exist.



Personally I think what we call scientific knowledge is a great methaphor. There is the universe and then there is our understanding of it. I don't think science produces knowledge it produces understanding.

I agree :) and I'm not one of those kooks who get down on scientific logic. I'm a very strong beleiver in science. it's just i don't beleive science can answer everything and I beleive science and faith should NEVER cross. this is why I'm so thankful that evoltuion and creation can exist in the same argument :) your looking at a theistic evultionist :)



I don't understand this at all.


sorry :) let me see if I can make it clearier. Most atheists will say that if something is illogical than it's untrue. i disagree with this because life itself is illogical. You were right to say that science gives you understanding... but it doesn't give you proof, it only gives you logic. Science is logic and is best kept in the box of logic. It is never meant to be a means to prove that God, ghosts, the supernatural or whatever don't exist. You can't use science that way. Science studies logic... but there are alot of illogical stuff to that we must use spiritail eyes to see.
 
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