Ask a Different Christian Philosopher a Question

[Percivale]

Another bad analogy... I think



Tell me would you accept being arrested by police for not pledging allegiance to the new leader of a currently unknown island nation?

I think you have me confused with a fundamentalist. Jesus is the king of the universe, but he won't punish us for not recognizing that, but rather for harming our fellow man. Of course to live optimally it helps to have a grasp of reality, and Jesus is pretty central to that, as will become more clear in the next life.

 

[Albion]

It seems as though, the people who were not exposed to Jesus, clearly did not have the same opportunity, yet, they are being held accountable, if they don't buy the story.

We can second guess God all day long, if we choose to. The exercise is futile, however, because God does not jump through our hoops. In fact, the Bible makes note of that.

As for the specific issue here, there is nothing strange or perverse about holding someone accountable for his wrongdoing, all else aside--advance warnings, whatever. In our ordinary lives, we do it all the time and take it for granted.

 

[bhsmte]

We can second guess God all day long, if we choose to. The exercise is futile, however, because God does not jump through our hoops. In fact, the Bible makes note of that.

As for the specific issue here, there is nothing strange or perverse about holding someone accountable for his wrongdoing, all else aside--advance warnings, whatever. In our ordinary lives, we do it all the time and take it for granted.

We are not talking about wrong doing, because the morality of a person and what type of life they lead, has nothing to do with what religion they are, or are not.

We are talking about the Christian theology and the requirement to believe Jesus was God, to avoid being condemned. Having direct exposure to Jesus, would seem to have a dramatic impact on that.

That is, unless you are one who believes, the Hindu or non believer who does not believe Jesus was God, but lives a good life dedicated to helping others, is viewed positively by the God you believe in.

 

[bhsmte]

We can second guess God all day long, if we choose to. The exercise is futile, however, because God does not jump through our hoops. In fact, the Bible makes note of that.

As for the specific issue here, there is nothing strange or perverse about holding someone accountable for his wrongdoing, all else aside--advance warnings, whatever. In our ordinary lives, we do it all the time and take it for granted.

Call it what you like, but you can't really call it 2nd guessing, because the 1st guess is only based on the theological assumptions of certain people.

I would call it, using logic to determine how reliable the theology is and whether it aligns with a God who cares about his creation.

 

[Albion]

QUOTE="bhsmte, post: 68772987, member: 329816"]We are not talking about wrong doing[/quote]
Of course we are. The question of our eternal destiny, punishment or reward, God's relationship with his people, etc. -- all of that is connected with whether or not Man is guilty of something.

We are talking about the Christian theology and the requirement to believe Jesus was God, to avoid being condemned.

...as I was saying.

Having direct exposure to Jesus, would seem to have a dramatic impact on that.

Sure. That would be nice, wouldn't it?

 

[bhsmte]

QUOTE="bhsmte, post: 68772987, member: 329816"]We are not talking about wrong doing

Of course we are. The question of our eternal destiny, punishment or reward, God's relationship with his people, etc. -- all of that is connected with whether or not Man is guilty of something.


...as I was saying.


Sure. That would be nice, wouldn't it?[/QUOTE]

From a God who cares about all his creation, it would seem to be a no brainer.

 

[Albion]

Of course we are. The question of our eternal destiny, punishment or reward, God's relationship with his people, etc. -- all of that is connected with whether or not Man is guilty of something.


...as I was saying.


Sure. That would be nice, wouldn't it?

From a God who cares about all his creation, it would seem to be a no brainer.

You still haven't told me what your preferred scenario would be.

 

[bhsmte]

You still haven't told me what your preferred scenario would be.

Equal exposure, for all.

 

[Albion]

Equal exposure, for all.

How do you see that being done? Would Jesus of Nazareth fly around the world, visiting all cultures? Would he be incarnated in all of them simultaneously? Would he then appear in the flesh to every human who has been born since AD 1? -- and spend three years teaching each of them, culminating in death on the cross or some other way? What? And I have already told you why this sort of thing would compromise his mission in Judea and Galilee.

 

[bhsmte]

How do you see that being done? Would Jesus of Nazareth fly around the world, visiting all cultures? Would he be incarnated in all of them simultaneously? Would he then appear in the flest to every human who has been born since AD 1? What? And I have already told you why this sort of thing would compromise his mission in Judea and Galilee.

He can perform miracles, but he can't make his way around to get exposure to the population?

Give me a break.

 

[Albion]

He can perform miracles, but he can't make his way around to get exposure to the population?

Give me a break.

Answer the whole post, please.

 

[bhsmte]

Answer the whole post, please.

If Jesus can perform miracles as some believe, what would limit him in being able to accomplish this, other than, he doesn't want to.

Why couldn't Jesus make an appearance every so often during subsequent generations and perform the miracles that were so dazzling, to get more people to buy in.

What is stopping him from doing this, other than a theology written by ancient man?

 

[Albion]

If Jesus can perform miracles as some believe, what would limit him in being able to accomplish this, other than, he doesn't want to.

Why couldn't Jesus make an appearance every so often during subsequent generations and perform the miracles that were so dazzling, to get more people to buy in.

What is stopping him from doing this, other than a theology written by ancient man?

Now wait a minute. Your point was that EVERYONE would have to have an equal encounter with Jesus, not that it would be possible for him to "make an appearance every so often during subsequent generations."

But even if that kind of tokenism would satisfy you, you still haven't explained how it would accomplish what Jesus accomplished in his life in Palestine--not by dropping in somewhere else to do a few miracles.

This whole thing really is not a meaningful discussion IMHO, but one thing is clear--it is not possible for God to be a natural man AS IS A KEY PRINCIPLE OF OUR RELIGION and still be a specter or quick-change artist making a momentary visit to some selected generations or cultures. That would not accomplish what you said was your concern, and it would change the entire point of his incarnation and life as Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[bhsmte]

Now wait a minute. Your point was that EVERYONE would have to have an equal encounter with Jesus, not that it would be possible for him to "make an appearance every so often during subsequent generations."

But even if that kind of tokenism would satisfy you, you still haven't explained how it would accomplish what Jesus accomplished in his life in Palestine--not by dropping in somewhere else to do a few miracles.

This whole thing really is not a meaningful discussion IMHO, but one thing is clear--it is not possible for God to be a natural man AS IS A KEY PRINCIPLE OF OUR RELIGION and still be a specter or quick-change artist making a momentary visit to some selected generations or cultures. That would not accomplish what you said was your concern, and it would change the entire point of his incarnation and life as Jesus of Nazareth.

Why would Jesus returning have to mirror what he was claimed to have done in Palestine. Why couldn't Jesus adapt to subsequent generations, to deliver his message?

Is this beyond his capabilities?

 

[Albion]

Why would Jesus returning have to mirror what he was claimed to have done in Palestine. Why couldn't Jesus adapt to subsequent generations, to deliver his message?

Is this beyond his capabilities?

Of course, he could have done anything he wanted, including not becoming man at all. But the religion incorporates the idea that he did become man and lived a life among men doing certain things that an occasional drop-in miracle, followed by vanishing, would not accomplish. Take away all of what he did, and you have some other religion.

You cannot say that IF Christianity is what it is, and believes what it does, it nevertheless suffers from the fact that some people didn't get to see it in person--which is where this exchange started. Not without simultaneously changing the religion into some other one.

 

[bhsmte]

Of course, he could have done anything he wanted, including not becoming man at all. But the religion incorporates the idea that he did become man and lived a life among men doing certain things that an occasional drop-in miracle, followed by vanishing, would not accomplish. Take away all of what he did, and you have some other religion.

You cannot say that IF Christianity is what it is, and believes what it does, it nevertheless suffers from the fact that some people didn't get to see it in person--which is where this exchange started. Not without simultaneously changing the religion into some other one.

I know what the theology says, I was a Christian for most of my life. Studying the theology much deeper, is what caused me to no longer be able to reconcile the theology with either reality, or a moral God.

 

[durangodawood]

Of course, he could have done anything he wanted, including not becoming man at all. But the religion incorporates the idea that he did become man and lived a life among men doing certain things that an occasional drop-in miracle, followed by vanishing, would not accomplish. Take away all of what he did, and you have some other religion.

You cannot say that IF Christianity is what it is, and believes what it does, it nevertheless suffers from the fact that some people didn't get to see it in person--which is where this exchange started. Not without simultaneously changing the religion into some other one.

It seems like the fair thing to do would be to provide some opportunity for salvation thats relevant to the various cultures around the world... instead of having everyone adapt to this one far away novelty that comes with tons of Jewish specific baggage.

All those souls missing out on salvation due to wrong time / wrong place.

 

[Percivale]

Jesus could have stayed on earth for a thousand years instead of forty days after his resurrection. The best reason for not doing that that I can think of is that God values human freedom, creativity, responsibility, and variety.

 

[bhsmte]

Jesus could have stayed on earth for a thousand years instead of forty days after his resurrection. The best reason for not doing that that I can think of is that God values human freedom, creativity, responsibility, and variety.

And that is what he got, variety.

2/3 of the world's population are not Christians and even among Christians, there are countless different theologies.

So, God, with his foreknowledge, created a situation, in which 2/3 of the population is doomed, regardless of the type of life they lead.

 

[Percivale]

And that is what he got, variety.

2/3 of the world's population are not Christians and even among Christians, there are countless different theologies.

So, God, with his foreknowledge, created a situation, in which 2/3 of the population is doomed, regardless of the type of life they lead.

Everyone, I believe, will have a chance after death to see the truth and decide how to respond; anyone who rejects God then will be doing for clearly evil motives. God will judge justly, based on what we have done, whether good or bad. And the rich history of all the variety of ideas people have had will be something we can look back on for all time and see what the results of any ideology are; the truth will be clearly illustrated.