Ask a Christian philosopher a question

[bhsmte]

Its a matter of faith in what we have been told from those who come from the other side. There are no gurantees, even evolutionary life didn't foresee with certainty.

There is an issue that we need to clarify, life was designed with all this uncertainty for a reason, we are supposed to be experiencing the search for values, for material and spiritual truth. We are in spiritual kindergarten on this world. And for what it's worth in my theology life after death adds nothing to us once we awake in the resurrection on the next world aside from the fact of survival. Faith will always be with us as we make our way inward to the spiritual presence of the Universal Father

No problem with believing it on faith.

 

[Breckmin]

If i have a strong enough psychological desire to believe in Thor as my God, guess what would happen?

Why ever compare God to Thor?

Why engage in such a foolish category error? If you wanted to compare Thor to angels then perhaps
there would be a reason for polemics... but comparing the Infinite Creator of the universe to a finite
"god" is clearly a failure to engage in proper intellectual and conceptual taxonomy.

 

[Breckmin]

Would you agree God put a design and system in place where sin was necessary?

Ken

The problem is with the misapplication of the word "necessary" in the question.

Does the best possible universe deal with moral evil? (the inevitable byproduct of freewill when the potential for moral evil is not removed).

Is God in the process of dealing with moral evil via a temporary creation? Yes.

But that doesn't exactly mean that sin/moral evil are necessary. Holy angels never sin... God could have
just had a universe with holy angels and prevented their fall by showing them hypothetical demonstrations...

but that does NOT make it (such a schema) the best possible universe. Question everything.

 

[Breckmin]

*God designed humans and animals to procreate, without the necessity of eventually dying,

I find the above assertion to be somewhat over-simplistic since God knew exhaustively that the creation was indeed temporary and that animals would indeed die. Flies and other insects were going to die regardless of the fall, correct?

*He put a system in place where sin was possible to be discovered which would result in the possibility of dying.

I like that you use the word "discovered" with respect to moral evil but "dying" here is more than just physical death.
The spiritual "dying" is a separation from the affectionate fellowship with a Holy Creator and ultimately a need for restoration TO PERFECTION before one could be part of a new heaven and new earth.

How come you can’t agree that sin was necessary in order for the requirement of dying to be accomplished?

Ken

Does sin somehow "need" to occur before a spider traps and eats a fly in its web? If Adam steps on an ant and the ant dies does that mean that sin was somehow "necessary?" I don't see where you are coming from? Perhaps this has something to do with a rigid fundamentalist view of the nature of scripture...

 

[Breckmin]

Tough questions, don't get answered.

Seriously.

How are these tough questions? .............

 

[Breckmin]

before Adam and Eve sinned, there was no death. Now they obviously had sex organs.....

micro organisms? Do you believe that they wouldn't have died? What about an ovum (non-fertilized) from Eve or sperm from Adam?

Are you believing that Adam's sperm wouldn't have died that wasn't used to procreate? What about bacteria? etc.

What about the plants that they ate? etc.

 

[quatona]

The problem is with the misapplication of the word "necessary" in the question.

Does the best possible universe deal with moral evil? (the inevitable byproduct of freewill when the potential for moral evil is not removed).

Is God in the process of dealing with moral evil via a temporary creation? Yes.

Sounds to me like god created a problem so there could be a solution to this problem.

But that doesn't exactly mean that sin/moral evil are necessary. Holy angels never sin... God could have
just had a universe with holy angels and prevented their fall by showing them hypothetical demonstrations...

but that does NOT make it (such a schema) the best possible universe.

Why not?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Based on your conduct to date, I have good reason to doubt that.

If you think intellectual honesty is important in the pursuit of truth, then why wouldn't you approach that question openly? Also, why did you claim to be open if you aren't?

Given what is supposedly at stake in these matters, the way in which you know your beliefs to be true should be of utmost importance! If there really is a Satan who is trying to deceive you as a means of securing your damnation, then it is very important that you know you have acquired beliefs that are genuinely salvific, and not beliefs that you have honestly mistaken as salvific, but which would actually condemn to you Hell.

Paging @anonymous person.

 

[Chriliman]

Sounds to me like god created a problem so there could be a solution to this problem.


Why not?

Or God created a physical solution to a spiritual problem.

 

[bhsmte]

Why ever compare God to Thor?

Why engage in such a foolish category error? If you wanted to compare Thor to angels then perhaps
there would be a reason for polemics... but comparing the Infinite Creator of the universe to a finite
"god" is clearly a failure to engage in proper intellectual and conceptual taxonomy.

It's all what the mind is capable of believing in.

 

[bhsmte]

Seriously.

How are these tough questions? .............

Two things; observe the discussion and then, ask the folks who don't answer them.

 

[quatona]

Or God created a physical solution to a spiritual problem.

Which "spiritual problem" would that be?
Besides, one would expect omnimax God to be able to slove a spiritual problem spiritually. Actually, one would expect him to be able to solve it instantly and directly.

 

[Chriliman]

Which "spiritual problem" would that be?
Besides, one would expect omnimax God to be able to slove a spiritual problem spiritually. Actually, one would expect him to be able to solve it instantly and directly.

From spiritual perspective, it is finished. From the physical perspective, it's not yet finished.

 

[quatona]

From spiritual perspective, it is finished. From the physical perspective, it's not yet finished.

This response doesn´t match the question.

 

[Breckmin]

Sounds to me like god created a problem so there could be a solution to this problem.

1. God created.
2. God created cognitive beings who could love. (and self-generate volition)
3. Creating beings who can love.... creates beings who have an ability to
create a potential byproduct of moral evil.
4. Love requires freewill....obedience requires freewill....genuine relationship
requires freewill....worship requires freewill...etc
5. Freewill can create a problem (potential) which has to be dealt with.
That is what God is doing in this temporary creation... (and more). God is dealing
with the "real" problem of evil... NOT explaining it..(why there is evil)... that's not
a problem... the REAL problem of evil is how IT (moral evil/sin) is a danger to the
creature...because of the absolute Holiness and Justice of the Perfect Creator.
Question everything.

Why not?

There is something about the quality of relationship that comes from restoration and forgiveness.
There is something about the demonstration of LOVE that comes from Self-Sacrifice.
Without a contrast of justice and mercy/grace... we wouldn't even fully understand what these
things are.
The best possible universe is one where we know how much God loved/loves us...and one
where we know what grace/mercy really is.

No one deserves to have the Holy Perfect Righteous Creator living inside them and having
spiritual fellowship 'with' them. This truth will not be hidden. Question everything.

 

[quatona]

1. God created.
2. God created cognitive beings who could love. (and self-generate volition)
3. Creating beings who can love.... creates beings who have an ability to
create a potential byproduct of moral evil.
4. Love requires freewill....obedience requires freewill....genuine relationship
requires freewill....worship requires freewill...etc
5. Freewill can create a problem (potential) which has to be dealt with.
That is what God is doing in this temporary creation... (and more). God is dealing
with the "real" problem of evil... NOT explaining it..(why there is evil)... that's not
a problem... the REAL problem of evil is how IT (moral evil/sin) is a danger to the
creature...because of the absolute Holiness and Justice of the Perfect Creator.
Question everything.

(emphasis added)
As I said, without creation the problem wouldn´t even exist.

There is something about the quality of relationship that comes from restoration and forgiveness.
There is something about the demonstration of LOVE that comes from Self-Sacrifice.
Without a contrast of justice and mercy/grace... we wouldn't even fully understand what these
things are.
The best possible universe is one where we know how much God loved/loves us...and one
where we know what grace/mercy really is.

If you think so.
Anyway, you still describe the creation of a problem in order for there to be a solution.
You describe how God is in need of "evil".

 

[Chriliman]

(emphasis added)
As I said, without creation the problem wouldn´t even exist.

Can God be God without a creation?

IOW, a God existing and not creating anything would be the most selfish God ever.

A God who is loving would create because He is loving and He would give of Himself to His creation in order to make it perfectly loving like He is and through doing this, God will be glorified and praised by His creation.

It's similar to how grown children look back and really appreciate the way their parents raised them to be disciplined and upright, which maximized their potential for success and a fruitful life. The children realize this and praise their parents for being good parents and in turn the parents enjoy the love received back from the children.

With man, this cycle of love comes to an end upon death, but with God this love continues on forever because God is eternally loving.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Can God be God without a creation?

That depends on how you define "God". If "God" is defined as a "Creator", then no. Otherwise, I don't see the problem.

IOW, a God existing and not creating anything would be the most selfish God ever.

But would still be God. What's the problem here? That God wouldn't live up to your expectations?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Breckmin]

You describe how God is in need of "evil".

Where have i described this? Please quote where I've said God somehow
needs anything. God doesn't need anything.

You said, "without creation the problem wouldn't even exist."

You are perhaps forgetting that love and truth are the two greatest ethics
and how they apply. Feel free to make a case as to why "love shouldn't exist."

Love requires freewill...so it is love's right to exist... and genuine relationships
and their right to exist which is at the heart of this regression.

 

[Breckmin]

Sounds to me like god created a problem so there could be a solution to this problem.

Then you are not understanding the difference between creating beings with freewill

verses creating problems. God has no problems... and God creates no problems...

God does indeed create beings who can create problems for themselves....

If you don't understand this last sentence... then you don't understand how we are all
little creators in God's universe... and we often create our own problems... just like
we create our own thoughts.