Ask a Christian philosopher a question

[KCfromNC]

Then you are not understanding the difference between creating beings with freewill

verses creating problems. God has no problems... and God creates no problems...

This kind of thinking leads to a god which doesn't have foreknowledge - which means that prophecy isn't a thing.

 

[Breckmin]

This kind of thinking leads to a god which doesn't have foreknowledge - which means that prophecy isn't a thing.

The Infinite Creator has exhaustive foreknowledge on everything that can be known. If you believe "this kind
of thinking" leads to a lack of omniscience... then you didn't understand "this kind of thinking."

 

[KCfromNC]

The Infinite Creator has exhaustive foreknowledge on everything that can be known. If you believe "this kind
of thinking" leads to a lack of omniscience... then you didn't understand "this kind of thinking."

OK. So god has "exhaustive foreknowledge" on everything that can be known. Can it be known that the things it created would make bad choices which lead to problems?

 

[Breckmin]

OK. So god has "exhaustive foreknowledge" on everything that can be known. Can it be known that the things it created would make bad choices which lead to problems?

If by "bad choices" you mean wickedness or gross iniquity in the sight of a Holy God... then you need to
substantiate what you mean by "problems."

It is NO problem for God...because God is also just...and when God judges sin/wickedness/moral evil..
God sets it RIGHT in eternity. Sin/wickedness isn't a problem for God because judgement isn't a
problem for God either. God's judgement is perfectly righteous and perfect and therefore absolutely "Good."

When we suffer from God's response to evil/wickedness (God's judgement/curse on us) God has
not done anything somehow "wrong."

God knows/knew every sin that would ever be committed by anyone. God allowed it by His "permissive"
will... because freewill/love/obedience/relationship/worship are good/perfect things to have in God's
universe. This is a temporary creation setting up for an eternally symmetrical afterlife of grace/mercy
out from justice (which is unfathomable and NOT what you want).

The truth about evil will not be hidden in eternity. Love is the greatest ethic to exist in eternity and
love requires freewill (regardless of whether or not the creature misuses their freewill).

 

[Colter]

OK. So god has "exhaustive foreknowledge" on everything that can be known. Can it be known that the things it created would make bad choices which lead to problems?

I have children, I was fully aware of their imperfection and various missteps that might occur as they grow through experience in life. The Gods were obviously fully aware of the potential of the imperfect, finite beings they created. There are no unforeseen accidents in the cosmos. Religious speculation about the meaning of events muddies the water going forward when more events occur.

This idea that we are going through all the hoops of a temporary creation, as if something happened that was not foreseen is still more silly speculation on mans part. As children of God we are supposed to be learning from our mistakes and experiences. It was/is Gods will that we learn in the arena of choice.

 

[KCfromNC]

If by "bad choices" you mean wickedness or gross iniquity in the sight of a Holy God... then you need to
substantiate what you mean by "problems."

I mean did god create people knowing that they would sin, or was god powerless to stop or ignorant of this problem coming from its creation?

 

[KCfromNC]

I have children, I was fully aware of their imperfection and various missteps that might occur as they grow through experience in life.

If you had the power, would you change things so that their journey was less painful? Or do you watch them suffering and think that situation is the best of all possible worlds?

 

[Colter]

If you had the power, would you change things so that their journey was less painful? Or do you watch them suffering and think that situation is the best of all possible worlds?

That's a legitimate question, I often glean from atheist that deep inside what you are really frustrated by are the circumstances that we on this world find ourselves in, the consequences of the behavior of others that we are born into and the attempts of the religious to explain it.

To answer your question, no, it's not love to shield our children from the consequences of their actions because they never learn if we do. In the grand scheme of the world, the wisdom of allowing the Lucifer rebellion, against the rule of the unseen Father, to proceed was that, had Lucifer been summarily stopped more may have been lost who were exposed to his sophistry. That is a wisdom which I in my little finite mind must accept. I'm certain that in my future life, beyond this world, the wisdom of my heavenly Father will become more apparent as my conceptualization of reality expands and this very brief life on this evolutionary world will be remembered as well as I remember pre-school.

As a parent I know what it's like to try to explain my wisdom to my kids and they already think they know everything. My oldest daughter went through hell with drugs and many dumb mistakes. When I would visit her in the juvenile detention center (just down the hill from the regional jail) I would kindly point out that if she did not stop her willful misbehavior she would graduate to the big peoples jail up on the hill. She scoffed at that and refused to acknowledge that "Juvi" was a kind of jail for young people. So, 4 felonies latter she called one day from the big peoples jail needing to be bailed out. Of coarse I reminded her of our conversation in Juvi.

A couple years have gone by, she had a baby which we are so proud of her decision to have it. Now, she decided to move across the country to be with her baby-dady in the California desert where he is a night time security guard on a pot farm.

I know how our unseen friends and the Gods feel at times. Assuming the story is true, we have in Jesus a creator who has experienced the full gambit of what we are asked to experience.

"Human wisdom must evolve".

 

[KCfromNC]

That's a legitimate question, I often glean from atheist that deep inside what you are really frustrated by are the circumstances that we on this world find ourselves in, the consequences of the behavior of others that we are born into and the attempts of the religious to explain it.

Sorry to be blunt, but your mind reading skills suck. Whatever school you took the course at should give you a refund.

To answer your question, no, it's not love to shield our children from the consequences of their actions

I wasn't talking about consequences of their actions. I was talking about things out of their control - the "imperfections" they were born with.

 

[Colter]

Sorry to be blunt, but your mind reading skills suck. Whatever school you took the course at should give you a refund.



I wasn't talking about consequences of their actions. I was talking about things out of their control - the "imperfections" they were born with.

I wasn't trying to read your mind, I was trying to answer the question I felt you were asking. Why do you feel like you have to be nasty?

I don't hold the imperfections of my children against them at all, I have plenty. I'm ADHD and a few other things. God as I understand God doesn't hold the imperfections of his finite children against them either, he Loves us with a Fatherly affection. The whole fallen man-sin-Jesus a sacrifice for sins thing, one day to made perfect arbitrarily in heaven, is human speculation, it makes no sense. There is an entirely different way to interpret the same events on earth.

 

[quatona]

That's a legitimate question, I often glean from atheist that deep inside what you are really frustrated by are the circumstances that we on this world find ourselves in, the consequences of the behavior of others that we are born into and the attempts of the religious to explain it.

Personally, I am quite fine with the state of affairs (it´s just the way it is, and I have to deal with it) - until somebody comes and tells me that this is the best world an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator entity could come up with.

 

[Breckmin]

I mean did god create people knowing that they would sin, or was god powerless to stop or ignorant of this problem coming from its creation?

If you read above you will see that I've answered that question a couple of times. God KNEW/KNOWS every sin anyone
will commit. Clearly God knew that sin would enter the world.

God is never "powerless" to stop something BUT God does allow things to take place in His universe which God is
opposed to... which is why the English word "will" does not properly apply to God without modifiers (because it
is too monolithic with respect to human freewill in comparison).

God is omniscient so God is never ignorant of anything.

God fully knew that humankind would abuse their freewill and sin and receive justice from God....
as well as mercy/grace for those who get adopted.

 

[Breckmin]

until somebody comes and tells me that this is the best world an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent creator entity could come up with.

It is a temporary creation that is setting up for a symmetrical afterlife. "Omnibenevolent" doesn't mean what you
think it means. It doesn't mean omni-forgiving or omni-loving. God is perfectly all-good, but justice is part
of God's goodness and righteousness/holiness as well. Question everything.

 

[quatona]

It is a temporary creation that is setting up for a symmetrical afterlife.
"Omnibenevolent" doesn't mean what you
think it means. It doesn't mean omni-forgiving or omni-loving. God is perfectly all-good, but justice is part
of God's goodness and righteousness/holiness as well. Question everything.

1. Not sure how that addresses what I said in the context of the quote I responded to.
2. I haven´t even told you what I think "omnibenevolent" means.
3. What is a "symmetrical afterlife"?

 

[Neochristian]

I have a question for a christian philosopher: what is good?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[KCfromNC]

I wasn't trying to read your mind, I was trying to answer the question I felt you were asking. Why do you feel like you have to be nasty?

Why do you feel that constructive criticism about your displayed weaknesses is nasty?

I don't hold the imperfections of my children against them at all, I have plenty.

Again, that isn't what I asked. If you had the power to do so, would you want to fix those imperfections?

God as I understand God doesn't hold the imperfections of his finite children against them either

Great, so I don't have to worry about my lack of belief since there's no down side to it.

 

[Colter]

Why do you feel that constructive criticism about your displayed weaknesses is nasty?



Again, that isn't what I asked. If you had the power to do so, would you want to fix those imperfections?



Great, so I don't have to worry about my lack of belief since there's no down side to it.

You accused me a mind reading and were wrong, seems you are the one with poor mind reading skills.

We can improve upon our imperfections, so we do have a degree of power to fix them.

There is ultimately a downside to spiritual laziness like there is a downside to quitting school, refusing to grow up and refusing an education. In an increasingly spiritual universe there won't be anywhere for such a rebellious child to go.

 

[KCfromNC]

You accused me a mind reading and were wrong, seems you are the one with poor mind reading skills.

We can improve upon our imperfections, so we do have a degree of power to fix them.

There is ultimately a downside to spiritual laziness like there is a downside to quitting school, refusing to grow up and refusing an education. In an increasingly spiritual universe there won't be anywhere for such a rebellious child to go.

Everyone else - does this poster always go this far out of his way to avoid answering a simple question?

 

[Colter]

Everyone else - does this poster always go this far out of his way to avoid answering a simple question?

I have answered your question. Don't ask if you are unwilling to accept the answer. I like the challenge of the unknown, of growing in truth and experience. You are a finite being, if you don't like the infinite source of reality then take your complaints to the source and explain how and why your way is better.

 

[bhsmte]

Everyone else - does this poster always go this far out of his way to avoid answering a simple question?

I will say this; you are not the first to discuss his mind reading skills, not by a long shot.