As AV wrote, if it contradicts the bible, it's wrong.

[AV1611VET]

ok please show any evidence that the bible is even talking about ex nihilo creation in the first place.

I have a feeling you're trying to draw me out of Genesis 1 so I can contradict myself, but I'll bite:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[Chaplain David]

Here's the facts for most Christians. The Bible is our source. There is none better.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning — the first day.
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."
7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so.
8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning — the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so.
10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so.
12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
13 And there was evening, and there was morning — the third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.
16 God made two great lights — the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth,
18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening, and there was morning — the fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth."
23 And there was evening, and there was morning — the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground — everything that has the breath of life in it — I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning — the sixth day.

Genesis 2:2:1

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

Pick up your Bible and read more of Genesis to see how humankind was made.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Here's the facts for most Christians. The Bible is our source. There is none better.

Genesis 1:1-31

Genesis 2:2:1

Pick up your Bible and read more of Genesis to see how humankind was made.

No no no, pick up the Qu'ran! It's much more prettier (and factually accurate, but who cares about that ).

 

[TheOutsider]

Everyone knows that the Principia Discordia is a twice as good as both the Bible and Koran because it has two! Count 'em, TWO! Origin stories. Discordians win again!!!

 

[TheBear]

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

So, God created the heavens and the earth in the dark, and light was created later. Did I read that right?

 

[Chaplain David]

No no no, pick up the Qu'ran! It's much more prettier (and factually accurate, but who cares about that ).

Prettier, you haven't seen my Bible.

Now they told me in the army not to assume but I'm going to do it anyway. Without going to your userpage and just by looking at your username, I assume you are Wiccan. What makes you think that the Quran is more factually accurate than the Holy Christian Bible? Some foundational support would be helpful such references from scholarly writings or other proof.

God bless you.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Prettier, you haven't seen my Bible.

Now they told me in the army not to assume but I'm going to do it anyway. Without going to your userpage and just by looking at your username, I assume you are Wiccan.

Correct. You could also look at my faith icon.

What makes you think that the Quran is more factually accurate than the Holy Christian Bible?

I was being satirical. You claimed (among other things) that Genesis describes the formation of humanity. I was pointing out that simply citing a piece of text doesn't make it necessarily true. Justification is required if you wish your claims to be taken seriously (and not relegated to those of just another proselytiser).

 

[Vene]

Everyone knows that the Principia Discordia is a twice as good as both the Bible and Koran because it has two! Count 'em, TWO! Origin stories. Discordians win again!!!

Plus, it's funny. And we have never killed for somebody not believing in Discordianism.

 

[Chaplain David]

Correct. You could also look at my faith icon.


I was being satirical. You claimed (among other things) that Genesis describes the formation of humanity. I was pointing out that simply citing a piece of text doesn't make it necessarily true. Justification is required if you wish your claims to be taken seriously (and not relegated to those of just another proselytiser).

And yet, the forum accepts the Holy Bible as evidence in debates and how many of us Christians accept it as God's written word? I forgot how many million.

I'll never be just another proselytiser. I am a unique proselytiser.

You're right about justification and I am justified by faith, through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. God bless you.

 

[GrayCat]

No, Wicca has even more origin stories than the Bible, Koran, or Principia Discordia because every tradition of Wicca has a different origin story!!

So it's better!!!

 

[tanzanos]

The bible also says that ALL humans are the result of incest and that we all originated from Noah's family fornicating with each other in order to repopulate the planet that was devoid of all life except that which was on board the Ark. This a few thousand years ago????????

Can someone seriously believe in such fairy tales?

Thank God my ancestor was an ape! At least he existed!

 

[Wiccan_Child]

And yet, the forum accepts the Holy Bible as evidence in debates

This forum doesn't do anything but give us a medium in which to debate. You are welcome to try to present the Bible as evidence, but don't think anyone will listen unless you are willing to provide justification.

and how many of us Christians accept it as God's written word? I forgot how many million.

Oh wow, is that really an argument by popularity?
"Because there's lots of us, we must be right!"

You're right about justification and I am justified by faith, through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

How does this relate to my point?

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Here's the facts for most Christians. The Bible is our source. There is none better.

Just tell me when you have decided to stick with what it says, instead of making empty lip-statements.

[Priestly Creation Account]

Pick up your Bible and read more of Genesis to see how humankind was made.

I think I know it rather well, especially the first creation story (Gen 1:1-2:4a). Thank you

 

[Archer93]

Here's the facts for most Christians. The Bible is our source. There is none better.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning — the first day.
6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."
7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so.
8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning — the second day.
9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so.
10 God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good. 11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so.
12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
13 And there was evening, and there was morning — the third day.
14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.
16 God made two great lights — the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth,
18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19 And there was evening, and there was morning — the fourth day.
20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."
21 So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22 God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth."
23 And there was evening, and there was morning — the fifth day.
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground — everything that has the breath of life in it — I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning — the sixth day.

Genesis 2:2:1

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

This will be a long post, but the space is needed.
Chapter 2 of Genesis-
Gen.2

[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
[2] And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
[4] These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
[5] And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
[6] But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
[8] And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
[10] And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
[11] The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
[12] And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
[13] And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
[14] And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
[15] And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
[18] And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
[19] And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
[20] And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
[21] And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
[22] And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
[23] And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
[24] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
[25] And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

I can see two glaring contraditions.
Geneisis 1 says that the heavens and the earth were made on separate days. Genesis 2 says that they were both made on the same day.

Genesis 1 puts the order of creation as plants-animals-man and woman at the same time.
Genesis 2 has plants first again, then man-animals-woman.

The biblical creation account contradicts itself in the first two chapters.
This is why many of us do not accept it as literal.

Does anyone have any refutation for this? Is there any reason why Genesis 1 is considered accurate and Genesis 2 is not? Or vice versa?
Really, until this is addressed we don't need science to argue against creationism. We have all we need in those two chapters, it seems!

 

[Chaplain David]

Just tell me when you have decided to stick with what it says, instead of making empty lip-statements.

I think I know it rather well, especially the first creation story (Gen 1:1-2:4a). Thank you

It is not surprising that a wiccan and an atheist do not agree with God's word. I'm sure if you keep searching you both will find everything that you need. I pray that it is the Triune God. God bless you.

 

[Archer93]

It is not surprising that a wiccan and an atheist do not agree with God's word. I'm sure if you keep searching you both will find everything that you need. I pray that it is the Triune God. God bless you.

I'm a qabalistically inclined Thelemite. I also know the difference between 'logos' and 'graphos'.

C'mon, answer my questions about Genesis 1 & 2. Please? Anyone?

 

[Chaplain David]

I can see two glaring contraditions.
Geneisis 1 says that the heavens and the earth were made on separate days. Genesis 2 says that they were both made on the same day.

Genesis 1 puts the order of creation as plants-animals-man and woman at the same time.
Genesis 2 has plants first again, then man-animals-woman.

The biblical creation account contradicts itself in the first two chapters.
This is why many of us do not accept it as literal.

Does anyone have any refutation for this? Is there any reason why Genesis 1 is considered accurate and Genesis 2 is not? Or vice versa?
Really, until this is addressed we don't need science to argue against creationism. We have all we need in those two chapters, it seems!

Archer, I think the bottom line in a lot of these debates is that no matter what Biblical proof is offered, no matter what personal experiences are shared, no matter what additional support is given, if someone is down on the Bible or Christians he/she is going to be against it no matter what anyone writes.

Personally, I accept the Holy Bible as God inspired, innerant and His written word on this earth. If you or someone else doesn't then those are personal decisions.

Picking apart our Holiest of books with "here's a contradiction, there's a contradiction, that doesn't make sense" kinds of arguments are not that important to us as Christians. Yes we try to understand the Bible better but we do it through communicating with other Christians, maybe our pastor, study, reading, and inspiration from the Holy Spirit.

We also realize as Billy Graham said so many times, that we don't claim to understand all of the Bible but we accept it BY FAITH! I add to that from personal experience that if one is diligent and sometimes even if one is not, more will be revealed.

So happy trails my friend and God bless you.

 

[AV1611VET]

C'mon, answer my questions about Genesis 1 & 2. Please? Anyone?

Archer, Genesis 1 and 2 are not two different accounts.

• Genesis 1 is a detailed account of the Creation.
• Genesis 2 is a specific account of how Adam got his wife.

When it came time for God to make Eve, God did something unusual: He gave Adam the task of naming the animals, then paraded the animals past him to see what he would call them. Adam saw Mr Gorilla and Mrs Gorilla, Mr Giraffe and Mrs Giraffe, Mr Bear and Mrs Bear, etc.; but where was Mrs Adam? The effect was that it made Adam realize he was alone, and it is then that God put him to sleep and formed Eve from his rib.

Simply look at Genesis 2:19-20 as parenthetical, and the problem clears right up.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

It is not surprising that a wiccan and an atheist do not agree with God's word.

And neither do you. So what gives?

I'm sure if you keep searching you both will find everything that you need. I pray that it is the Triune God. God bless you.

 

[Archer93]

Archer, I think the bottom line in a lot of these debates is that no matter what Biblical proof is offered, no matter what personal experiences are shared, no matter what additional support is given, if someone is down on the Bible or Christians he/she is going to be against it no matter what anyone writes.

Personally, I accept the Holy Bible as God inspired, innerant and His written word on this earth. If you or someone else doesn't then those are personal decisions.

Picking apart our Holiest of books with "here's a contradiction, there's a contradiction, that doesn't make sense" kinds of arguments are not that important to us as Christians. Yes we try to understand the Bible better but we do it through communicating with other Christians, maybe our pastor, study, reading, and inspiration from the Holy Spirit.

We also realize as Billy Graham said so many times, that we don't claim to understand all of the Bible but we accept it BY FAITH! I add to that from personal experience that if one is diligent and sometimes even if one is not, more will be revealed.

So happy trails my friend and God bless you.

I promise you, for what it's worth, that I do not have any sort of a down on Christianity or God. And I have a high regard for personal gnosis- other people's accounts won't persuade me one way or another by themselves, but then again I don't expect mine to persuade others.

I can accept the bible as God's written word, but not as logos. That, to me, is in the shape of the world itself, still vibrating from that first word. Like a record being cut, or a wax cylinder, and by looking at the markings we can play back at least some of that first Word (Yes, I know, I'm an odd kind of pagan! )

I can't do blind faith. I can't start from a principle of 'X is so, so everything must agree with X, even if all observation says otherwise, because X is so.'
It's a matter of trying to find sense.
My method is science, my aim is religion.

But still, thank you very much for taking the time to reply to me and explaining your standpoint. I do appreciate it.