Army Tries to Bring Back Soldiers Booted for Refusing the COVID Vaccine

[KCfromNC]

True enough. That's probably the reason enlistment numbers are at historic lows.

Enlistment does tend to follow unemployment numbers. I doubt there are enough vaccine deniers in the general population to make much of a dent compared to that.

 

[probinson]

Nothing is 100% effective, but covid vaccines do reduce the spread of the disease :

Vaccine effectiveness against transmission of alpha, delta and omicron SARS-COV-2-infection, Belgian contact tracing, 2021–2022 - PMC

Vaccine effectiveness against transmission (VET) of SARS-CoV-2-infection can be estimated from secondary attack rates observed during contact tracing. We estimated VET, the vaccine-effect on infectiousness of the index case and susceptibility of the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Infectiousness of SARS-CoV-2 breakthrough infections and reinfections during the Omicron wave - Nature Medicine

Analysis of data from California prisons shows that both COVID-19 vaccination and prior SARS-CoV-2 infection reduces the risk of virus transmission to close contacts.

www.nature.com

Effectiveness of COVID-19 Vaccination on Transmission: A Systematic Review

Vaccination against infectious disease affords direct protection from vaccine-induced immunity and additional indirect protection for unvaccinated persons. A systematic review was conducted to estimate the indirect effect of COVID-19 vaccination. From PubMed and Embase, 31 studies were included...

www.mdpi.com

And so on, and so forth.

Hopefully you're one of the ~17% of true believers left in the US that got the 2023 vaccine to reduce the spread.

In any event, the military has realized this vaccine mandate was ill-advised, has rescinded it, and is now asking those they ungraciously booted to come back. I'm guessing not too many will take them up on that.

 

[Tuur]

U.S. law enforcement deaths 1786-2023, by cause | Statista

Since the 1780s, over 25,000 United States law enforcement officers have died while on active duty, or due to injuries and illnesses obtained while on duty.

www.statista.com

The red line starting at 2020 represents covid deaths. I don't think you understand how bad it was.


View attachment 340091

You have numbers of deaths, but not number of people in law enforcement. From the same site:

U.S. law enforcement officers 2023| Statista

How many police officers are there in the U.S.? In 2023, there were 720,652 full-time law enforcement officers employed in the United States, an increase from 708,001 the previous year.

www.statista.com

Per your chart, there were nearly 500 COVID-19 deaths among law enforcement in 2021. Per the link above, there were 660,288 law enforcement officers in the US in 2021. (500 / 660,288) x 100 = 0.0757%.

 

[KCfromNC]

Hopefully you're one of the ~17% of true believers left in the US that got the 2023 vaccine to reduce the spread.

Hmm a post starting with a lame attempt to divert away from the obvious errors corrected by the post it was quoting and onto the posters themselves. Where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, I remember, it is in posts which have nothing to counter the data in the post they're quoting.

 

[probinson]

Enlistment does tend to follow unemployment numbers. I doubt there are enough vaccine deniers in the general population to make much of a dent compared to that.

True, there are a myriad of reasons enlistment is down. The vaccine mandate debacle is just one issue, and probably one of the smaller ones. Although it was apparently significant enough that the military decided to reach out to those they dismissed to ask them to come back.

Probably the biggest reason enlistment is down is because veterans are telling their family members to not enlist.

The children of military families make up the majority of new recruits in the U.S. military. That pipeline is now under threat, which is bad news for the Pentagon’s already acute recruitment problems, as well as America’s military readiness. ​

​

“Influencers are not telling them to go into the military,” said Adm. Mike Mullen, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in an interview. “Moms and dads, uncles, coaches and pastors don’t see it as a good choice.”​

​

The Military Recruiting Crisis: Even Veterans Don’t Want Their Families to Join

The Pentagon is scrambling to retain the main pipeline for new service members as disillusioned families steer young people away. This article is part of a series examining the problems confronting America’s military.

www.wsj.com

​

 

[Mayzoo]

This. If you have ever been in the military you know this is true, including often getting "experimental" versions of vaccines so they can test them. I think they are now better at informing the military members of what vaccines they are getting (though not if they are experimental), it has never been an option to refuse a vaccine.

Yeah, maybe it has changed, but the military made it very clear to hubby and the other soldiers that they were not allowed to get tattoos as that is "defacing government property." They were considered property, with no constitutional rights, to be done with as the military saw fit.

 

[DaisyDay]

You have numbers of deaths, but not number of people in law enforcement. From the same site:

U.S. law enforcement officers 2023| Statista

How many police officers are there in the U.S.? In 2023, there were 720,652 full-time law enforcement officers employed in the United States, an increase from 708,001 the previous year.

www.statista.com

Per your chart, there were nearly 500 COVID-19 deaths among law enforcement in 2021. Per the link above, there were 660,288 law enforcement officers in the US in 2021. (500 / 660,288) x 100 = 0.0757%.

Lies, damn lies and statistics? Yes, the vast majority of law enforcement officers didn't die of covid - or anything else in 2020-2022, for that matter. However, of the ones who did, more died of covid than gun shot.

 

[probinson]

Hmm a post starting with a lame attempt to divert away from the obvious errors corrected by the post it was quoting and onto the posters themselves.

Not really.

If you believe what you're saying about the vaccines reducing transmission, you should be one of the first in line to get that updated 2023 vaccine.

Are you one of the ~17% of US adults that got it?

 

[probinson]

They were considered property, with no constitutional rights, to be done with as the military saw fit.

That's sad. I have no idea why anyone would put their lives on the line for a country that won't even protect their own constitutional rights.

 

[Tuur]

Lies, damn lies and statistics? Yes, the vast majority of law enforcement officers didn't die of covid - or anything else in 2020-2022, for that matter. However, of the ones who did, more died of covid than gun shot.

Yet that in itself only indicates that the deaths from gunshots are less than we might assume. Hovering the cursor over the line and the year gives exact numbers. 63 deaths from gunshot; 493 for COVID-19. (63 / 660288) * 100 = 0.00954%; (493 / 660288) * 100 = 0.07466%. Both are low. Simply citing the number of deaths tells us nothing about the death rate, which is more significant.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I don't have a Statista account so I can't see the source data, but those COVID-19 data points seems entirely out of whack. The chart shows 284 COVID deaths in 2020, 493 COVID deaths in 2021 (when there was a vaccine and mandates), and just 2 COVID-19 deaths in 2023. Those are some wild swings that merit further scrutiny.

Can anyone post the original source of this data?

As I recall, it took a while for the vaccines to get rolled out after they were first released. My first shot wasn’t until late April 2021.

You have numbers of deaths, but not number of people in law enforcement. From the same site:

U.S. law enforcement officers 2023| Statista

How many police officers are there in the U.S.? In 2023, there were 720,652 full-time law enforcement officers employed in the United States, an increase from 708,001 the previous year.

www.statista.com

Per your chart, there were nearly 500 COVID-19 deaths among law enforcement in 2021. Per the link above, there were 660,288 law enforcement officers in the US in 2021. (500 / 660,288) x 100 = 0.0757%.

The number of officers who die in the line of duty (from all causes) is usually around 150-200/yr. COVID was more than double that.

Not really.

If you believe what you're saying about the vaccines reducing transmission, you should be one of the first in line to get that updated 2023 vaccine.

Are you one of the ~17% of US adults that got it?

I got it.

 

[probinson]

As I recall, it took a while for the vaccines to get rolled out after they were first released. My first shot wasn’t until late April 2021.

Yes, but there weren't ANY vaccines in 2020, and deaths were nearly half what they were in 2021.

I got it.

I didn't.

I got the original 2-dose series of Pfizer and had horrible side effects with both doses. Got COVID anyway. It was actually worse than my friends that got it that weren't vaccinated, but still pretty mild. Anecdotal perhaps, but I see no reason for any additional vaccines as the first ones didn't really help and just made me ill.

 

[probinson]

Yet that in itself only indicates that the deaths from gunshots are less than we might assume. Hovering the cursor over the line and the year gives exact numbers. 63 deaths from gunshot; 493 for COVID-19. (63 / 660288) * 100 = 0.00954%; (493 / 660288) * 100 = 0.07466%. Both are low. Simply citing the number of deaths tells us nothing about the death rate, which is more significant.

Good point.

The first great lie of COVID was that they said there was a 3.4% mortality rate. This extremely inflated number was propagandized and pushed all over the world. It was never true.

 

[Mayzoo]

That's sad. I have no idea why anyone would put their lives on the line for a country that won't even protect their own constitutional rights.

And almost anyone with military experience can tell you cannot have many/most of your constitutional rights and be an effective soldier in an effective military. You need to accept you will be ordered around, with no recourse but to obey (or be court marshaled) without thought of the rationale to the order, yourself, or if the order is "right or wrong". You must do as you are told, when you are told regardless of what you "think" about the order or how that order affects your well-being, anyone else's wellbeing (just barely short of war crimes of course) or the rights you had before you joined the military.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Yes, but there weren't ANY vaccines in 2020, and deaths were nearly half what they were in 2021.

That's because it didn't even get started in the US until late March / early April 2020 and while the mortality rate was pretty high throughout 2020, daily case counts were fairly low (relative to the rest of the outbreak) until about October 2020, when it started taking off, with the 2nd-highest average peak coming in Jan 2021. IOW, a lot more people got sick in 2021, because the virus had spread a lot by then.

(ignore the specific dates highlighted on the charts - that's just where my mouse landed)

 

[probinson]

That's because it didn't even get started in the US until late March / early April 2020

Actually, there's evidence that COVID began circulating in China as early as October 2019 and that it likely was spreading worldwide by January 2020. We just didn't have a constant death counter in the bottom corner of 24-hour news channels until March 2020.

Covid-19 May Have Started Spreading As Early As October 2019 In China, U.K.-Led Study Suggests

The start date of the coronavirus outbreak has been a subject of intrigue for scientists and many have suggested it may have been spreading long before the first case was detected in December 2019.

www.forbes.com

and while the mortality rate was pretty high throughout 2020, daily case counts were fairly low (relative to the rest of the outbreak) until about October 2020, when it started taking off, with the 2nd-highest average peak coming in Jan 2021. IOW, a lot more people got sick in 2021, because the virus had spread a lot by then.

Yes, but there were vaccines available on December 14, 2020. The rollout was swift. By April 2021, the US vas vaccinating >3.5 million people every day.

If vaccines slowed infections, then why after mass vaccination did the outbreaks get worse? And why were highly vaccinated populations still seeing large outbreaks?

Unfortunately, the protection provided by COVID vaccines is incredibly transient. That's why some people are now on their 5th or 6th dose of the vaccine in <3 years. So even if the vaccine does provide a reduction in transmission immediately following vaccination, that protection wanes incredibly rapidly, making the reduction fleeting. If your risk of getting COVID immediately following vaccination is reduced but 4 weeks later is the same, does it really provide an appreciable benefit?

Further, it is known that young, healthy men are particularly susceptible to myocarditis from the COVID vaccines. It is also known that young, healthy men are at minimal risk of complications from COVID. And lastly, it is known that prior COVID infection confers protection that is equally as good, if not better, than the vaccine. With all of those knowns, it is highly questionable why vaccines would be mandated in a population of primarily healthy, young men.

Thankfully, the military has dropped this ill-advised mandate.

 

[probinson]

And almost anyone with military experience can tell you cannot have many/most of your constitutional rights and be an effective soldier in an effective military. You need to accept you will be ordered around, with no recourse but to obey (or be court marshaled) without thought of the rationale to the order, yourself, or if the order is "right or wrong". You must do as you are told, when you are told regardless of what you "think" about the order or how that order affects your well-being, anyone else's wellbeing (just barely short of war crimes of course) or the rights you had before you joined the military.

Crazy.

I have no idea why anyone would agree to that. I suspect that's a large reason why so many veterans are encouraging their family and friends to NOT enlist.

 

[Vambram]

And almost anyone with military experience can tell you cannot have many/most of your constitutional rights and be an effective soldier in an effective military. You need to accept you will be ordered around, with no recourse but to obey (or be court marshaled) without thought of the rationale to the order, yourself, or if the order is "right or wrong". You must do as you are told, when you are told regardless of what you "think" about the order or how that order affects your well-being, anyone else's wellbeing (just barely short of war crimes of course) or the rights you had before you joined the military.

I joined the US Army in 1993 for active duty and left active duty service in 2008. Then, in 2011, I joined the Army National Guard. I am still in the National Guard.
I know from all my years of Army experiences, that your statements here are an over simplification.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Actually, there's evidence that COVID began circulating in China as early as October 2019 and that it likely was spreading worldwide by January 2020. We just didn't have a constant death counter in the bottom corner of 24-hour news channels until March 2020.

Covid-19 May Have Started Spreading As Early As October 2019 In China, U.K.-Led Study Suggests

The start date of the coronavirus outbreak has been a subject of intrigue for scientists and many have suggested it may have been spreading long before the first case was detected in December 2019.

www.forbes.com

Yes, but there were vaccines available on December 14, 2020. The rollout was swift. By April 2021, the US vas vaccinating >3.5 million people every day.

View attachment 340112

If vaccines slowed infections, then why after mass vaccination did the outbreaks get worse? And why were highly vaccinated populations still seeing large outbreaks?

The rollout was fast relative to prior vaccine efforts, but it wasn’t all that fast relative to the spread of the disease. Yes, it hit the streets in December, but I seem to recall supplies being limited and the first rounds being prioritized for at-risk populations. As I noted, I couldn’t get my first one until April.

Your chart shows doses administered, IIRC, most variants of the initial vaccine needed at least two shots, 3-4 weeks apart, so the true number of folks vaccinated is half of what your chart shows.

So, in the case of 2020, you have virtually nobody being sick with it for the first quarter of the year, while 2021 started with one of the bigger active case loads of the pandemic and most folks unable to be fully vaccinated for another few months.

 

[NxNW]

In reality, every single word I stated is true. Coercion to take a brand new drug with zero long term data was a new low point.

Nobody was coerced to take a brand new drug with zero long term data.

Not to mention that everyone who already had it was immune

This is false. Many were infected more than once, and many had Long Covid.

The only people ever at any serious risk were the elderly and those with multiple co-morbidities

This is false. Many who were in good health died or had serious complications.

and those people should have distanced, while everyone else went about his life.

Hard to distance when Donald Trump is cutting off unemployment and trying to force everyone back to work.

We knew it, of course, as everyone we knew who had the virus was immune. They weren't getting sick repeatedly.

Some were.