Arminians

[orthedoxy]

Do Arminians teach salvation by works? If yes why?

 

[GodsElect]

Yes they do, they belive that man has the free will to choose christ which makes it a WORK of man. That is not giving all the glory to Christ for their salvation. Here is a link on what The Arminians belive. www .bible-researcher.com/arminianism.html
If you have any other questions feel free and unafraid to ask. There are a lot of misconceptions of what Calvinists belive which are Mostly all very false and uninformed opinions.

 

[orthedoxy]

Thanks
Can you give me all the verses that teach total depravity?

 

[heymikey80]

One popular list appears at the end of this chapter by Boettner.

 

[AndOne]

There are quite a few - but for starters check out this link: http://www.the-highway.com/dordt.html

Once there go to the third and fourth heads of doctrine under the Canons of Dort - which specifically addresses Total Depravity. The scripture proofs are included for you on the page under the "rejections" section. Check it out...

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Do Arminians teach salvation by works? If yes why?

Well...they do...but most of them don't think they do. Most American Christians are effectively Arminian...but try telling them they believe in salvation by works!! Then you better duck!! That's why I think that there are more saved Arminians than a lot of Calvinists would like to believe. Most of them havn't really thought through the consequences of their beliefs, and insist that they really do belive in salvation by grace alone through faith alone. Since I don't think we have to have all of our theological I's dotted and T's crossed to be saved, I think God's grace is extended to misguided Arminians.

 

[GodsElect]

^Yes, agreed, but what they don't understand is that if they are saved they are of God's elect and they were spiritually dead and could not even desire God or to know Him until they were MADE alive and GIVEN a new nature to desire to do what is pleasing in His eyes. So if you ask an Arminian how they were saved 99.9% of them would say "I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior!" and therefore deny the soviergnty of God in statments like that.

They belive that they played some kind of role in thier regeneration. Which is to deny the power of the Holy Spirit. And what they also belive is that they (berfore regeneration) must have had some kind of spiritual goodness to ACCEPT Christ and do not acknowledge the fact that salvation or to be made alive is not something that a (spiritually) dead person can do on their own nor can have any part in receiving a new life or becoming a new creation. But it is GIVEN by God. They dont get that when God calls or makes an intervention in one's life that they can DO NO OTHER but to accept and receive Him.

Who can turn back the outstretched hand of their God....Not one person can do this. So it isn't understood that First, God made the way unto salviation and Second, they had no choice in the matter but to accept Christ and their Savior.

And I do think that God will have a problem with one claiming that they, being dead in thier traspasses and sin, was made alive by saying "OK God I grant you full authority to make me a new creation!" Can a dead person talk? think? accept? or reject? or have any other will in them but to be dead?

 

[UMP]

GodsElect,

Yes,
However, be careful, I think you need to make a distinction between the sinners moral ability and physical ability. There is nothing physically stopping anyone from worshipping God. All mankind has that physical ability. Moral ability is another story. If you had a man that was in court charged with murder and his defence was, " I could not help killing him. I love to kill, my parents taught me to kill, I was born a killer and I hated this man so much, I could not stop myself even if I wanted to". Here this man had the physical ability to not murder his enemy, yet lacked the moral ability to stop his evil act. What would even an earthly judge's verdict be?? Guilty.
Hence, mans guilt comes not from his physically inability, but from his moral inability. The trouble is in the heart.
Man is dead (spiritually dead), not naturally or physically dead.
I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to fine tune

A.W. Pink asks the question well:

II. How can the sinner be held responsible FOR the doing of what he is UNABLE to do? And how can he be justly condemned for NOT DOING what he COULD NOT do?

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/sov_08.htm
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[orthedoxy]

Doesn't one have to believe and confess Jesus with their mouth to be saved?
Who is doing the believing and the confessing?
If it's you that is doing it would that be work salvation?

My other question do Calvinist have free will to deny Jesus?

 

[mlqurgw]

They do effectively teach a works salvation but it is a symptom of their false view of God. They claim to believe in the God of the Bible but rob Him of all that makes Him God. They say He is sovereign but then make Him to be subject to them. They destroy His love by robbing it of its power. They make the wisdom of God to fail in knowing the perfect manner in which to show mercy. They destroy the righteousness of God in making His finished work need something more. They make God to be just like a man.

 

[UMP]

Doesn't one have to believe and confess Jesus with their mouth to be saved?
Who is doing the believing and the confessing?
If it's you that is doing it would that be work salvation?

The real question is, who or what makes us willing to do such things?
God does:

Philippians 2:
[13] For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God also finishes what He starts:

Philippians 1:
[6] Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Here Paul says he worked more than they all, yet "not I".

1 Corinthians 15:
[10] But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Therefore, God gets "ALL" the glory.

 

[GodsElect]

GodsElect,

Yes,
I think you need to make a distinction between the sinners moral ability and physical ability. There is nothing physically stopping anyone from worshipping God. All mankind has that physical ability.

Now I really do have a question about this statement. Does a person who has no arms no legs is blind, deaf or mentally handicapped have the ability to physically, or morally for that matter, have anyhting in them to worship God? For scripture says: Romans 9:11 "(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls)" I would have to say NO, will they too go to hell for their inability? We do not have this answer but rather .... Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, &#8220;I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.&#8221;

A.W. Pink asks the question well:

II. How can the sinner be held responsible FOR the doing of what he is UNABLE to do? And how can he be justly condemned for NOT DOING what he COULD NOT do?
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Here is Pink's exact question and answer in the bible....

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

here is the link to Romans 9 for you to read in context....http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 9 ;&version=50;

 

[UMP]

Now I really do have a question about this statement. Does a person who has no arms no legs is blind, deaf or mentally handicapped have the ability to physically, or morally for that matter, have anyhting in them to worship God? For scripture says: Romans 9:11 "(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls)" I would have to say NO, will they too go to hell for their inability? We do not have this answer but rather .... Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”



Here is Pink's exact question and answer in the bible....

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

here is the link to Romans 9 for you to read in context....http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 9 ;&version=50;

You act as if I don't agree with what Romans 9 is saying, I do.
All I'm trying to do is sharpen your iron.
Pink answers the question in that link I posted. You might want to read it. I think you'll like it.

 

[GodsElect]

I know that you were not disagreeing with me I obviously needed to object and state the being of man's physical ability to worship or to even have the ability is given by God first and to those that physically dont have the abilty to make this decision of their own or physically worship on their own. I am truly sorry if I came across as showing any disagreement I was mostly intending the last post for those reading to further my point of man's disability for any spiritual goodnes on their own without God granting mercy to those He will grant mercy. And thank you for the sharpening, it brings my heart great joy to know that others have been shown the truth by God and know what scripture is really saying.

 

[orthedoxy]

I still have a question.
you say one need to be regenerated to believe Does salvation happen at regeneration or at the time you believe?
Also were the people in the Old Testament regenerated?

 

[mlqurgw]

I still have a question.
you say one need to be regenerated to believe Does salvation happen at regeneration or at the time you believe?
Also were the people in the Old Testament regenerated?

God's elect were saved in the purpose of God before the foundation of the world. Eph. 1:4, 2Tim. 1:9, Heb. 4:3, 1Pet.1:20 Christ is called the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world. Rev. 13:8
For God to purpose it was the same as it already happening. The elect were actually saved in time when Christ died. He appeared once to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself and did exactly that. Heb.9:26 The elect are made aware of that accomplished salvation by the Spirit making the Word preached reach into the heart and regenerating the elect sinner.John 14:8-11 Having been made alive in Christ we willingly run to Him in faith.Psa. 110:3 God has always dealt with elect sinner in Christ. Even those in OT times. Yes theywere regenerated. They would have been just like the rest of the world, religious but blind, if they had not been given life in Him. Those OT believers didn't have the full picture but they did understand that there was one coming who would redeem His people. Job says that he knows that his redeemer lives and will stand on the earth in the latter days. Job 19:25-27

 

[ThinkofHim]

God is the master of mankind-not the other way round. One can no more buy grace and mercy of him than a dog can buy supremacy over it's human master by playing tricks.

Works that we do for ourselves are for our own gratification. If our Lord chooses to use us, he will do so. If he chooses not to use even a finely honed tool-That is his perogative-not ours.

It was a difficult thing for me to overcome, my own hidden arrogance in refusing to accept this simple facet of who God is. That he is so totally superior to me that there is nothing that *I* can do to influence him.

If I am saved or no-it is entirely his choice. Does this mean I should give up on living by the law and spirit? Not at all-but I do that for myself-not for him.

I have no expectations beyond this.

I do what feels right to me-and he will do that same.

 

[UMP]

God is the master of mankind-not the other way round. One can no more buy grace and mercy of him than a dog can buy supremacy over it's human master by playing tricks.

Works that we do for ourselves are for our own gratification. If our Lord chooses to use us, he will do so. If he chooses not to use even a finely honed tool-That is his perogative-not ours.

It was a difficult thing for me to overcome, my own hidden arrogance in refusing to accept this simple facet of who God is. That he is so totally superior to me that there is nothing that *I* can do to influence him.

If I am saved or no-it is entirely his choice. Does this mean I should give up on living by the law and spirit? Not at all-but I do that for myself-not for him.

I have no expectations beyond this.

I do what feels right to me-and he will do that same.

Or in other words:

"I cannot say to every one that ploweth, infallibly, that he shall have a good crop; but this I can say to him, It is God's use to bless the diligent and provident. I cannot say to every one that desireth posterity, Marry, and you shall have children; I cannot say infallibly to him that goeth forth to battle for his country's good that he shall have victory and success; but I can say, as Joab (1Chron. 19:13) 'Be of good courage, and let us behave ourselves valiantly for our people and the cities of our God: and let the LORD do that which is good in His sight.' I cannot say infallibly you shall have grace; but I can say to every one, Let him use the means, and leave the success of his labor and his own salvation to the will and good pleasure of God. I cannot say this infallibly, for there is no obligation upon God. And still this work is made the fruit of God's will and mere arbitrary dispensation-'Of His own will begat He us by the Word of Truth' (James 1:18). Let us do what God hath commanded, and let God do what He will. And I need not say so; for the whole world in all their actings are and should be guided by this principle. Let us do our duty, and refer the success to God, Whose ordinary practice is to meet with the creature that seeketh after Him; yea, He is with us already; this earnest importunity in the use of means proceeding from the earnest impression of His grace. And therefore, since He is beforehand with us, and hath not showed any backwardness to our good, we have no reason to despair of His goodness and mercy, but rather to hope for the best"

Manton

 

[UMP]

I know that you were not disagreeing with me I obviously needed to object and state the being of man's physical ability to worship or to even have the ability is given by God first and to those that physically dont have the abilty to make this decision of their own or physically worship on their own. I am truly sorry if I came across as showing any disagreement I was mostly intending the last post for those reading to further my point of man's disability for any spiritual goodnes on their own without God granting mercy to those He will grant mercy. And thank you for the sharpening, it brings my heart great joy to know that others have been shown the truth by God and know what scripture is really saying.

What I was trying to do is to prove that God will be a just judge. I was trying to prove man's REAL guilt before God. That is why I used the words "physical" vs. "moral" ability. Pink uses the words "natural" and "spiritual" ability. Our inability lacks in our "willingness" to come to Christ, not in our physical ability to do so. The sinner is physically able to come to Christ, in the sense that he has all the faculties to do so, yet lacks the will. Hence his guilt is REAL.

Now, if someone lacks the "physical" ability, perhaps an unborn child, aborted child, a very young child, severely mentally handicapped child or adult, etc., can God judge this person in the same manner? I'm not sure. The following verse dictates that to whom less or little is given, less will be required:

Luke 12:
[48] But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Also, who am I to say God can't save anyone in ANY condition, for His hand is not shortened:
Isaiah 59:
Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

I know there is much more to it than what I or Pink have said and maybe I'm partly wrong too.
I do know one thing, regardless of whether I understand or not, God IS and will be a just judge. By the grace of God I pray that I can say along with Job: "though He slay me, yet will I trust Him"

 

[ThinkofHim]

Or in other words:

"I cannot say to every one that ploweth, infallibly, that he shall have a good crop; but this I can say to him, It is God's use to bless the diligent and provident. I cannot say to every one that desireth posterity, Marry, and you shall have children; I cannot say infallibly to him that goeth forth to battle for his country's good that he shall have victory and success; but I can say, as Joab (1Chron. 19:13) 'Be of good courage, and let us behave ourselves valiantly for our people and the cities of our God: and let the LORD do that which is good in His sight.' I cannot say infallibly you shall have grace; but I can say to every one, Let him use the means, and leave the success of his labor and his own salvation to the will and good pleasure of God. I cannot say this infallibly, for there is no obligation upon God. And still this work is made the fruit of God's will and mere arbitrary dispensation-'Of His own will begat He us by the Word of Truth' (James 1:18). Let us do what God hath commanded, and let God do what He will. And I need not say so; for the whole world in all their actings are and should be guided by this principle. Let us do our duty, and refer the success to God, Whose ordinary practice is to meet with the creature that seeketh after Him; yea, He is with us already; this earnest importunity in the use of means proceeding from the earnest impression of His grace. And therefore, since He is beforehand with us, and hath not showed any backwardness to our good, we have no reason to despair of His goodness and mercy, but rather to hope for the best"

Manton

Yes Manton..exactly. and is not one of the biggest sins of man-refusing to live up to the potential our creator has blessed us with? Especially when the word of how to do exactly that is spelled out for us so very clearly?

I cannot trust that my will alone will bring me to salvation, for we all will fall short and have weakness. This still does not excuse lack of faith, or dilligence in pursuit of our callings........

When I reach out in prayer and feel the love and mercy of my creator-it gives me hope and strength. And my faith in him grows stronger as well. And there is always the drive to do my best.

But one must always keep in mind that we are not in this alone-and that our best is not just for ourselves-but our brothers and sisters.