Arminians, why are you Arminian?

[98cwitr]

God always finishes the work He begins. However, you are ripping this verse out of context to fit your idea that just because God moves on us to allow us to choose salvation, that that somehow discredits God and makes his work incomplete.

If God does not move on them, can a person still choose?

Why would God offer a gift to a person that will never accept it? Or, was the gift offered not to individuals, but mankind as a whole? I think we might need to analyze the difference between the "offer of the gift [of salvation]" and literal atonement for sin.

 

[twin1954]

Nope! The only thing I did was accept a free gift offered to me by God. Faith is not a work!

I also do not hold to the perseverance of the saints as some other Arminians hold. I think once we are born-again that we are eternally secure in our salvation! (though that may change with further research) This is actually the most disputed doctrine among Arminians that I have found.

Salvation is never presented in the Scriptures as an offer it is always presented as a gift. God does not offer salvation He gives it.

You, as most Arminians, don't seem to want to recognize the difference between an offer and a gift.
If I offer you a hundred dollars it is up to you to take it and you make it yours when you do. You take part in the transaction by your acceptance of what is offered. That is what makes it a work on your part because you do something that others do not do.

But if I give you a hundred dollars I make it your possession when I give it to you. You have no part in the transaction except to be the recipient of what I give. The whole transaction is done by me for you and it is not a work on your part.

God gives His elect salvation in Christ and they have nothing to do with it. He does so by putting them together with the preaching of the Gospel and gives them life and faith in Christ.

And no they do not become saved when God gives them faith they simply find out that they have already been saved. First by the eternal decree of God in electing love, then by the actual life, death and resurrection of Christ in time and they find out about it when God opens their heart to the truth of their salvation.

(Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Now notice that it doesn't say that we were saved after we believed but that we heard the word of truth the Gospel of our salvation, that we have been saved, and then we were sealed by the Spirit. Being sealed by the Spirit isn't what saves us it is the down payment of our inheritence.

 

[mikedsjr]

My view:

I don't care if people are Arminian or Calvinistic. Soteriologally, I would be Calvinist leaning.

The primary concern I have is interpreting Scripture rightly. I don't know if this is a result of Arminianism or Weslyanism. I can't stand Scripture used out of its native context, to make a lesson for us today. "What is you Goliath?" or "What do you need to bury in your life and resurrect it new?" or even quoting Jeremiah 29:11. Few ever quotes the verse today using context except to explain how people use it out of context.

To me, at least right now until someone can properly correct me, this is an Arminian problem. Arminians claim to love Scripture, but love it to put a spin on modern western greedy life.

I'm clearly not imagitve enough to get these view. I could never look at the death of Jesus and think, "what do I need to kill in my own life?" That's not the point of his death. I could never read Jeremiah and think, "yeah God's speaking to me" while keeping the verse in context.

You won't here an RC priest, Lutheran or Calvinistic/reformed pastor read Scripture in this way from their podium at church. But a Arminian pastor would.

 

[Leevo]

But if you are secure, does that not imply that you will persevere? That's how it is with Calvinists anyway. We think of it terms of preservation=perseverance. Since it is God who saves, God will preserve you by causing you to persevere.

No, I don't hold to any form of perseverance of the saints. Zero. None...

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Once we have accepted salvation as offered to us from God, he will never fail us.

 

[Leevo]

If God does not move on them, can a person still choose?

Why would God offer a gift to a person that will never accept it? Or, was the gift offered not to individuals, but mankind as a whole? I think we might need to analyze the difference between the "offer of the gift [of salvation]" and literal atonement for sin.

As far as I understand Arminian theology, man cannot choose until they hear the Gospel, God moves on them at that point. If they never hear the gospel, then no, they are still under total depravity...

The gift is offered to everyone of all time and all places, the world. Why wouldn't God still offer salvation to those he knows will deny it. He still wants them to be saved, but ultimately they never will be...

 

[Leevo]

Salvation is never presented in the Scriptures as an offer it is always presented as a gift. God does not offer salvation He gives it.

You, as most Arminians, don't seem to want to recognize the difference between an offer and a gift.
If I offer you a hundred dollars it is up to you to take it and you make it yours when you do. You take part in the transaction by your acceptance of what is offered. That is what makes it a work on your part because you do something that others do not do.

Valid point but...

But if I give you a hundred dollars I make it your possession when I give it to you. You have no part in the transaction except to be the recipient of what I give. The whole transaction is done by me for you and it is not a work on your part.

I can still reject your gift of a hundred dollars if I don't want it... I don't have to take it...

God gives His elect salvation in Christ and they have nothing to do with it. He does so by putting them together with the preaching of the Gospel and gives them life and faith in Christ.

And no they do not become saved when God gives them faith they simply find out that they have already been saved. First by the eternal decree of God in electing love, then by the actual life, death and resurrection of Christ in time and they find out about it when God opens their heart to the truth of their salvation.

(Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Now notice that it doesn't say that we were saved after we believed but that we heard the word of truth the Gospel of our salvation, that we have been saved, and then we were sealed by the Spirit. Being sealed by the Spirit isn't what saves us it is the down payment of our inheritence.

Rom. 10:9 "Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Acts 16:31 "And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Believe and you will be saved...

 

[royal priest]

No, I don't hold to any form of perseverance of the saints. Zero. None...

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand."

Once we have accepted salvation as offered to us from God, he will never fail us.

John 10:28 is proof that believers will persevere.
Otherwise, how would you explain, for instance, Matthew 7:21?

 

[Job8]

Why would God offer a gift to a person that will never accept it?

Because God is God, and not man, and He wants the whole world to be saved. God offers the gift of eternal life freely to anyone and everyone. Some will accept it which others will not. That is precisely what is revealed in Scripture (John 3:16-21):

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The problem I see with Calvinists -- and it is a very, very serious problem -- is that they lightly dismiss the words of God and of Christ because those words do not suit their doctrines of men. This is what the scribes and the Pharisees were guilty of. They elevated the doctrines of men above the Word of God.

That passage in John chapter 3 is actually a record of the words of the Saviour Himself. It is Christ who is telling us that anyone and everyone ("whosoever") may be saved. It is Christ who is telling us "that the WORLD through Him might be saved". And Calvinists oppose Christ and His words daily. That is an extremely serious matter. That is opposition to God and to the true Gospel.

 

[royal priest]

Because God is God, and not man, and He wants the whole world to be saved. God offers the gift of eternal life freely to anyone and everyone. Some will accept it which others will not. That is precisely what is revealed in Scripture (John 3:16-21):

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The problem I see with Calvinists -- and it is a very, very serious problem -- is that they lightly dismiss the words of God and of Christ because those words do not suit their doctrines of men. This is what the scribes and the Pharisees were guilty of. They elevated the doctrines of men above the Word of God.

That passage in John chapter 3 is actually a record of the words of the Saviour Himself. It is Christ who is telling us that anyone and everyone ("whosoever") may be saved. It is Christ who is telling us "that the WORLD through Him might be saved". And Calvinists oppose Christ and His words daily. That is an extremely serious matter. That is opposition to God and to the true Gospel.

What of the person who has not been drawn to Christ by the Father? Of course he may be one of the many called, but is he clearly not among the few chosen?

 

[twin1954]

Valid point but...

OK

I can still reject your gift of a hundred dollars if I don't want it... I don't have to take it...

What if you don't know that I gave it to you until you already have it? Added to that you will not reject it if you know that you are in great need of it.

That is why the preaching of the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe. Rom. 1:16. By the preaching of the Gospel God sends forth His awakening power to bring life and faith to all of the elect. Election isn't salvation it is unto salvation. By the preaching of the Gospel God makes known to the chosen sinner his utter helplessness and rightful and just damnation. By the preaching of the Gospel the elect sinner finds himself in need of mercy and finds his only hope in the person and finished work of Christ Jesus the Lord.
The sinner then finds that he has already been saved by Christ and rejoices in that salvation and desires to be with Christ and live for Him in this world.

Rom. 10:9 "Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

That is not the Gospel. It is only a portion of the Gospel truth. Why didn't you give the rest of the passage?
(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


(Rom 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.


(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


(Rom 10:14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


(Rom 10:15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


(Rom 10:16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


(Rom 10:17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Acts 16:31 "And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Again you missed a major portion of the passage that helps us understand the meaning of the verse you give.

(Act 16:30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?


(Act 16:31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


(Act 16:32) And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

You may want to take a look at a few verses earlier in Acts 16.

(Act 16:6) Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
Now don't you wonder why the Spirit wouldn't allow them to go into Asia? Could it be because He had no elect there at that time?

What you are doing is called proof texting. Those who do it need a proof text to backup their pretext. It isn't a very honest or decent way to use or interpret the Scriptures.

Believe and you will be saved...

How is it that you think that that doesn't fit with Calvinist theology? We call on sinners to believe in Christ. What we don't do is tell them that if they do something there is hope for them and that Jesus will save them if they let Him. We actually preach the good news that the Lord Jesus has saved sinners and that if they can believe they are saved. We tell sinners that sin has been put away by the Lord Jesus Christ and mercy is had in Him alone. We tell sinners that in Christ we are free from the penalty of sin, the bondage to sin and that we are as righteous in Him. We tell sinners that in Him alone are we accepted of God and that the love of God has provided salvation for chosen sinners. All there is to know if you are a chosen sinner is can you trust Christ alone and not anything in yourself.

 

[twin1954]

Because God is God, and not man, and He wants the whole world to be saved. God offers the gift of eternal life freely to anyone and everyone. Some will accept it which others will not. That is precisely what is revealed in Scripture (John 3:16-21):

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The problem I see with Calvinists -- and it is a very, very serious problem -- is that they lightly dismiss the words of God and of Christ because those words do not suit their doctrines of men. This is what the scribes and the Pharisees were guilty of. They elevated the doctrines of men above the Word of God.

That passage in John chapter 3 is actually a record of the words of the Saviour Himself. It is Christ who is telling us that anyone and everyone ("whosoever") may be saved. It is Christ who is telling us "that the WORLD through Him might be saved". And Calvinists oppose Christ and His words daily. That is an extremely serious matter. That is opposition to God and to the true Gospel.

You present a god who is more worthy of pity than of worship. Poor god, he wants to save all men but can't because they just will not allow him to. Poor god, he loves everyone but his love makes no difference in their salvation because they don't want his love. Poor god, he must be the most frustrated being to ever exist.

You also misuse John 3:16. First of all the Lord Jesus isn't telling the Pharisee, who He is talking to by the way, who God loves as mush as He is telling him how much God loves. When you use it as a proof for your false theology you misuse the passage and take it out of its context.

But just so you may understand, the Lord was talking to a high Jew a Pharisee. When He told that Pharisee that God loved the world that Jew understood that God didn't just love Jews. That is what the Lord was saying concerning who God loves. He certainly wasn't telling him that God loves all men without exception because we know that the Scriptures are very clear that there are some whom God says that He hates. You do believe the Scriptures don't you?

Additionally, you might want to finish the chapter before you start building your false doctrine.

(Joh 3:36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Now if you will actually look at the verse John the Baptist is saying, by the inspiration of God, that those who do not believe have no hope in the love of God but the wrath of God abides on them. It is present tense and means exactly what it says. So I ask you how can you tell an unbeliever that God loves them when the Scriptures clearly and unmistakably say that it is the wrath of God that abides on them right now? What hope is there for an unbeliever in the wrath of God? There is none which is why we preach hope in Christ alone to all who believe. We do not tell rebel sinners that they have hope in the love of God for that is an outright lie. We tell them that unless they fall at the feet of the Savior begging mercy they have no hope.

 

[Leevo]

OK



What if you don't know that I gave it to you until you already have it? Added to that you will not reject it if you know that you are in great need of it.

That is why the preaching of the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe. Rom. 1:16. By the preaching of the Gospel God sends forth His awakening power to bring life and faith to all of the elect. Election isn't salvation it is unto salvation. By the preaching of the Gospel God makes known to the chosen sinner his utter helplessness and rightful and just damnation. By the preaching of the Gospel the elect sinner finds himself in need of mercy and finds his only hope in the person and finished work of Christ Jesus the Lord.
The sinner then finds that he has already been saved by Christ and rejoices in that salvation and desires to be with Christ and live for Him in this world.

We agree with the idea that at the preaching of the gospel God moves on a person in some way then? Where we disagree is whether or not God enables said person to believe, or forces said person to do so. I take the former.

That is not the Gospel. It is only a portion of the Gospel truth. Why didn't you give the rest of the passage?
(Rom 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


(Rom 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.


(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


(Rom 10:14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


(Rom 10:15) And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


(Rom 10:16) But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


(Rom 10:17) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

As far as I understand this, it works in favor of Arminian theology, not Calvinism... Especially the parts you highlighted...

Again you missed a major portion of the passage that helps us understand the meaning of the verse you give.

(Act 16:30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?


(Act 16:31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.


(Act 16:32) And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

You may want to take a look at a few verses earlier in Acts 16.

(Act 16:6) Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
Now don't you wonder why the Spirit wouldn't allow them to go into Asia? Could it be because He had no elect there at that time?

What you are doing is called proof texting. Those who do it need a proof text to backup their pretext. It isn't a very honest or decent way to use or interpret the Scriptures.

Even with the entirety of the passages quoted, it still seems to support Arminian theology rather than your Calvinistic theology...

How is it that you think that that doesn't fit with Calvinist theology? We call on sinners to believe in Christ. What we don't do is tell them that if they do something there is hope for them and that Jesus will save them if they let Him. We actually preach the good news that the Lord Jesus has saved sinners and that if they can believe they are saved. We tell sinners that sin has been put away by the Lord Jesus Christ and mercy is had in Him alone. We tell sinners that in Christ we are free from the penalty of sin, the bondage to sin and that we are as righteous in Him. We tell sinners that in Him alone are we accepted of God and that the love of God has provided salvation for chosen sinners. All there is to know if you are a chosen sinner is can you trust Christ alone and not anything in yourself.

I know Calvinism calls on sinners to believe in Christ, but the message in the quoted verses was that you believe, and then you can be saved. Salvation has already happened, now we just need to accept the free gift. Can you honestly tell someone that God loves them? No you can't. The Calvinist cannot preach the true love of God...

We tell sinners that in Him alone are we accepted of God and that the love of God has provided salvation for chosen sinners. All there is to know if you are a chosen sinner is can you trust Christ alone and not anything in yourself.

This is not the gospel...

 

[Leevo]

John 10:28 is proof that believers will persevere.
Otherwise, how would you explain, for instance, Matthew 7:21?

False converts

 

[Job8]

What of the person who has not been drawn to Christ by the Father? Of course he may be one of the many called, but is he clearly not among the few chosen?

Once again we are off on a Calvinistic tangent. That is not the issue. Please read the Scripture -- the words of Christ Himself -- that says that the whole world might be saved, and agree that on that basis Limited Atonement is a FALSE DOCTRINE. Then we can address all the other tangents.

 

[Job8]

You present a god who is more worthy of pity than of worship.

Another Calvinistic dodge. Please read the Scripture and either agree with Christ or disagree with Him. No need for red herrings. And notice you did not capitalize God, which is an indicator of how lightly you esteem the words of Christ. And to claim that I misuse John 3:16 is so laughable, it cannot even be addressed. Which is another Calvinistic dodge.

 

[twin1954]

We agree with the idea that at the preaching of the gospel God moves on a person in some way then? Where we disagree is whether or not God enables said person to believe, or forces said person to do so. I take the former.

God makes no one believe against their will. That is another straw man. But I don't have a problem if God forced me I still am saved and am united to Christ.
(Psa 110:3) Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

As far as I understand this, it works in favor of Arminian theology, not Calvinism... Especially the parts you highlighted...

Actually it doesn't take sides. It speaks to both the Calvinist and the Arminian. But it doesn't stand alone. It also must be understood according to the teaching of the whole of the Scriptures which clearly are Calvinistic. That seems to be one of the major problems with Arminian theology. It is built on passages of Scripture that are taken as though they stand alone. Doctrine is built on portions of the Scriptures and human natural thinking.

Even with the entirety of the passages quoted, it still seems to support Arminian theology rather than your Calvinistic theology...

As I said not really. It simply says that salvation is through faith but doesn't really speak to the time of salvation and can be as easily understood in a Calvinistic manner. Actually it supports Calvinism as it is in truth more than the straw man that most Arminians build in order to tear down.

I know Calvinism calls on sinners to believe in Christ, but the message in the quoted verses was that you believe, and then you can be saved.

The message is that there is no salvation apart from faith. It doesn't speak to when we are saved.

Salvation has already happened, now we just need to accept the free gift.

True salvation has already happened. It happened in eternity before this world was spoken into existence in the eternal decree of God to choose a people out of Adam's fallen race to be the objects of His love and mercy. It happened in time when Christ was born, lived as the Substitute and Surety of His people, die on a cruel cross bearing their sins and raised from the grave because they are justified in Him. Salvation happens as well when God gives us faith and we find out what God has done for us and in us. Salvation isn't a thing that happens and then is done it is an ongoing position and being. We have been saved, we are saved and we are being saved.

Can you honestly tell someone that God loves them? No you can't.

I can surely tell a believer that God loves them. But why would I lie to a rebel sinner and tell him that he has hope in the love of God when the Scriptures are clear that it isn't the love of God that abides on them but the wrath of God. John3:36

The Calvinist cannot preach the true love of God...

No it is the Arminian who cannot preach the true love of God. The love of God in the Arminian theology does the sinner no good because it cannot do anything for him unless the sinner lets Him. The Arminian theology makes the love of God to be a useless emotion and without actual power.

The Calvinist preaches the love of God that actually accomplished the very best for the objects of its love. It makes the love of God do actually do something not just be an emotion like a man's. We preach the love of God that sent the Son to accomplish redemption not just make it possible. We make the love of God for sinners to be a strong and relentless desire that seeks out the chosen sinner and stops him in his mad rush to Hell. We preach the love of God as it takes us up in His loving arms and carries us through the rivers and through the fires so that the smell of smoke does not even get on our clothes. We actually preach the wondrous, powerful, immutable and immeasurable love of God to sinners in Christ Jesus the Lord alone.

All the love, blessing and mercy of God is in Christ alone and cannot be found apart from Him. If you are not in Christ you have no hope in His love, His mercy or His blessings. Outside of Christ is wrath and anger and eternal damnation.

This is not the gospel...

Show me how that is not the Gospel. Prove your accusation don't just make it.

 

[royal priest]

False converts

Correct, as evidenced by their failure to persevere in the will of God. Eternal life belongs to those who persevere. We are not saying that perseverance (faith and repentance) is the basis of salvation, but rather the evidence that the Spirit is working in and through the one being saved.

 

[Leevo]

Correct, as evidenced by their failure to persevere in the will of God. Eternal life belongs to those who persevere. We are not saying that perseverance (faith and repentance) is the basis of salvation, but rather the evidence that the Spirit is working in and through the one being saved.

Hmm. I suppose I could agree with that. Like I said, my current beliefs on perserverance are subject to change as I do more study XD

 

[royal priest]

Once again we are off on a Calvinistic tangent. That is not the issue. Please read the Scripture -- the words of Christ Himself -- that says that the whole world might be saved, and agree that on that basis Limited Atonement is a FALSE DOCTRINE. Then we can address all the other tangents.

This is directly related to the definition of world. The few are chosen out of the world. The father draws men out of the world. The entire world may be called, but only a few are chosen and drawn out of the world. Jesus does not pray for the world, He prays for those whom the Father had given to Him, ie. drawn out of the world. John 17:9

 

[Leevo]

God makes no one believe against their will. That is another straw man. But I don't have a problem if God forced me I still am saved and am united to Christ.
(Psa 110:3) Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

I don't mean forced as in kicking and screaming. But rather that God is the one who made you believe in the first place... Poor wording I suppose.

Actually it doesn't take sides. It speaks to both the Calvinist and the Arminian. But it doesn't stand alone. It also must be understood according to the teaching of the whole of the Scriptures which clearly are Calvinistic. That seems to be one of the major problems with Arminian theology. It is built on passages of Scripture that are taken as though they stand alone. Doctrine is built on portions of the Scriptures and human natural thinking.

It is true that it doesn't take sides, but I find it has to be slightly bent to fit into Calvinistic theology. The whole of the scriptures seems to support free will and human choice, rather than what you are suggesting. Arminian theology is the one that truly takes into account all of scripture, whereas Calvinism is the one that picks and chooses, the way I see it.

As I said not really. It simply says that salvation is through faith but doesn't really speak to the time of salvation and can be as easily understood in a Calvinistic manner. Actually it supports Calvinism as it is in truth more than the straw man that most Arminians build in order to tear down.

I suppose it does go both ways, but again I think you have to bend it to fit Calvinism. I think Arminian theology takes the scripture at it's word when it says things such as "whoever believes" etc.






The message is that there is no salvation apart from faith. It doesn't speak to when we are saved. True salvation has already happened. It happened in eternity before this world was spoken into existence in the eternal decree of God to choose a people out of Adam's fallen race to be the objects of His love and mercy. It happened in time when Christ was born, lived as the Substitute and Surety of His people, die on a cruel cross bearing their sins and raised from the grave because they are justified in Him. Salvation happens as well when God gives us faith and we find out what God has done for us and in us. Salvation isn't a thing that happens and then is done it is an ongoing position and being. We have been saved, we are saved and we are being saved.

I can surely tell a believer that God loves them. But why would I lie to a rebel sinner and tell him that he has hope in the love of God when the Scriptures are clear that it isn't the love of God that abides on them but the wrath of God. John3:36

Wrong. God loves everyone, even sinners. John 3:16, 1 John 2:2, Romans 5:8

No it is the Arminian who cannot preach the true love of God. The love of God in the Arminian theology does the sinner no good because it cannot do anything for him unless the sinner lets Him. The Arminian theology makes the love of God to be a useless emotion and without actual power.

It has already done something for them, made salvation possible! The Arminian preaches the true love of God, whereas the Calvinist preaches a hate filled one.

The Calvinist preaches the love of God that actually accomplished the very best for the objects of its love. It makes the love of God do actually do something not just be an emotion like a man's. We preach the love of God that sent the Son to accomplish redemption not just make it possible. We make the love of God for sinners to be a strong and relentless desire that seeks out the chosen sinner and stops him in his mad rush to Hell. We preach the love of God as it takes us up in His loving arms and carries us through the rivers and through the fires so that the smell of smoke does not even get on our clothes. We actually preach the wondrous, powerful, immutable and immeasurable love of God to sinners in Christ Jesus the Lord alone.

The Arminian would agree that God's love did accomplish something... Jesus Christ's work on the cross.

All the love, blessing and mercy of God is in Christ alone and cannot be found apart from Him. If you are not in Christ you have no hope in His love, His mercy or His blessings. Outside of Christ is wrath and anger and eternal damnation.

Indeed, this statements goes both ways.

Show me how that is not the Gospel. Prove your accusation don't just make it.

The Gospel is for the world. John 3:16.