Arminians, why are you Arminian?

twin1954 · Jan 9, 2016

PrettyboyAndy said:
Can`t argue with you there, John 5:25 does seem to support spiritually dead being able to hear the world of God - Can some of my Calvinist friends help me here

(Eze 37:1) The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones,

(Eze 37:2) And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.

(Eze 37:3) And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest.

(Eze 37:4) Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.

(Eze 37:5) Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:

(Eze 37:6) And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

(Eze 37:7) So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

(Eze 37:8) And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.

(Eze 37:9) Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

(Eze 37:10) So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

(Eze 37:11) Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

(Eze 37:12) Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

(Eze 37:13) And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

(Eze 37:14) And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

twin1954 · Jan 9, 2016

kangaroodort said:
No it doesn't mean that at all. It means that the one who is [presently] believing (believing is a present participle) has been [which is perfect, not "past"- perfect refers to something that happened in the past with continuing results up to the time of the speaker, and usually the emphasis is on the present aspect, not the past] born of Him. This is true even if believing precedes being born of God. In fact the Greek says that the participle relates to the main verb in such a way that either it denotes contemporaneous action, or the participle takes priority (which means the believing comes first). It cannot be construed in such a way that the main verb takes priority. So the Greek actually works against your view. But even if it shows contemporaneous action, that does not tell us which comes "logically first" which is what the ordo salutis deals with. And in just a few verses down we have a passage with the exact same verbal construction that clearly puts the participle logically first:

"Anyone who does not believe [present participle] God has made [perfect verb] him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about His Son." (1 John 5:10)

Here we have the same construction and it is clear that the act of "not believing" (present participle) precedes and is the reason for making God out to be a liar ("has made"- perfect).

And the fact remains that Jesus says the dead will hear unto life, while you say the dead cannot hear and one must first be given life to hear. You are spinning your wheels. Where will you go now? Maybe John 1:12-13? I am looking forward to it.

I will respond to this when I have more time. Needless to say that the Greek is useful but as much a matter of interpretation as the English. I will argue from the Greek though as you seem to think I can't.

twin1954 · Jan 9, 2016

Job8 said:
I don't believe most non-Calvinists know too much about Arminius or Arminianism. Some even spell it as Armenian, as though Noah's Ark is somehow connected. It is more a matter of rejecting TULIP as outlandish than anything else. The more pertinent issue is "Why do you believe that TULIP contradicts the true Gospel?"

Most modern non-Calvinists are actually Wesleyan Arminian but don't realize it. I do know the difference between classical Arminianism and Pelagianism and Wesleyan Arminianism.

JM · Jan 9, 2016

twin1954 said:
Most modern non-Calvinists are actually Wesleyan Arminian but don't realize it. I do know the difference between classical Arminianism and Pelagianism and Wesleyan Arminianism.

I will second that.

mikedsjr · Jan 9, 2016

kangaroodort said:
Wow, this is really grasping. It is clear from the language that living results from hearing. Those who hear "will live" as a result of hearing. And even if we tried to force it to say what you seem to want it to say, the fact remains that Jesus says the "dead will hear" which you say is not possible based on your Calvinist presuppositions. Please see the post I linked to earlier for more detail. The comments section of that thread would be good to check out too as there is a lot of interaction regarding the meaning of this text with Calvinists.

I didn't grasp at nothing. I pointed out out what the verse said. Only God can raise the dead.

Leevo · Jan 9, 2016

JM said:
Ok, so you believe God foreknew who WOULD NOT believe and created them anyway...knowing they were being created for hell.

You wrote that, "God chose to elect those he foreknew would believe" so the opposite would be true. God would also foreknow who would NOT believe BUT God created them anyway knowing their final destination would be everlasting torment.

Gotcha.

Yes, God created those who would not believe. That is in line with both Arminianism and Calvinism...

I find it worse for Calvinists but especially those Calvinists that hold to "double predestination" because that says that God created the ones for hell specifically to send them to hell to show off his "glory."

Leevo · Jan 9, 2016

royal priest said:
How does that work out exactly? God looked down the corridor of eternity to the time mankind existed in search of those who would choose to love Him? Then, in discovering those who loved Him, He chose to make them the object of His saving love?

This article can explain the Arminian doctrines 10x better than I could:
http://evangelicalarminians.org/the...nian-theologythe-biblical-doctrines-of-grace/

Leevo · Jan 9, 2016

DELETED. Responded twice by accident to the same post...

royal priest · Jan 9, 2016

Leevo said:
This article can explain the Arminian doctrines 10x better than I could:
http://evangelicalarminians.org/the...nian-theologythe-biblical-doctrines-of-grace/

For God to choose to love me on the basis of my choosing Him would be an unholy act of God indeed! After all, I am a sinner by nature! I cannot do anything good apart from Jesus Christ's work to redeem me from my desperate condition! I died unto God because of the work of Adam and my own sin. Therefore, my only hope to live unto Him is but by the regenerating work of Christ, alone! My hope of salvation is in none other than God which began a good work in me and He is committed to complete that work in me and in all of His elect until the end when Jesus returns! Philippians 1:6.

royal priest · Jan 9, 2016

Leevo said:
This article can explain the Arminian doctrines 10x better than I could:
http://evangelicalarminians.org/the...nian-theologythe-biblical-doctrines-of-grace/

My friend,
Even though the Scripture is clear that God's grace is perpetuated based on our condition, it is also clear that this very condition is effected by God: I will give them a heart... Ezekiel 36:26. Had it not been for God to change our hearts, we would have never believed, nor persevered. Even as the Ethiopian cannot change his skin nor the leopard his spots, could we who were accustomed to doing evil, do good. Jeremiah 13:23. To God be the glory from beginning to end!!!

Leevo · Jan 9, 2016

royal priest said:
My friend,
Even though the Scripture is clear that God's grace is perpetuated based on our condition, it is also clear that this very condition is effected by God: I will give them a heart... Ezekiel 36:26. Had it not been for God to change our hearts, we would have never believed, nor persevered. Even as the Ethiopian cannot change his skin nor the leopard his spots, could we who were accustomed to doing evil, do good. Jeremiah 13:23. To God be the glory from beginning to end!!!

We hold to the idea that God changes our hearts. Though we believe it differently than Calvinists. We believe that God enables us to choose at the preaching of the Gospel. It's the doctrine of "prevenient grace."

royal priest · Jan 9, 2016

Leevo said:
We hold to the idea that God changes our hearts. Though we believe it differently than Calvinists. We believe that God enables us to choose at the preaching of the Gospel. It's the doctrine of "prevenient grace."

Yes, but does God finish the work He began, or it it up to you?

Job8 · Jan 9, 2016

twin1954 said:
Most modern non-Calvinists are actually Wesleyan Arminian but don't realize it. I do know the difference between classical Arminianism and Pelagianism and Wesleyan Arminianism.

The issue is not what Wesley believed or what Arminius believed , since most people would not know, and others would not care. The issue is what makes TULIP unacceptable to the majority of Christians. One does not automatically have to resort to Arminianism to recognize the falsity of TULIP.

As I mentioned in another thread, John 1:29 itself demolishes Calvinism.
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Strong's Concordance (2889)
kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

Calvinism teaches limited atonement (hence the "L") but John 1:29 plainly states that the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world. There is no getting away from that, and no dodging that, to make "the world" mean anything other than what it means -- the world of humanity. So if Christ tasted death for every man, and God now commands ALL MEN everywhere to repent, it means that all can be saved if all will repent.

It does not matter whether Pelagius, or Augustine, or Arminius, or Calvin, or Wesley say something else. The truth is the truth, and the Word of God is the Word of God.

Job8 · Jan 9, 2016

royal priest said:
Yes, but does God finish the work He began, or it it up to you?

What do you think, and what does Scripture say?

Leevo · Jan 9, 2016

royal priest said:
Yes, but does God finish the work He began, or it it up to you?

God always finishes the work He begins. However, you are ripping this verse out of context to fit your idea that just because God moves on us to allow us to choose salvation, that that somehow discredits God and makes his work incomplete.

royal priest · Jan 9, 2016

Leevo said:
God always finishes the work He begins. However, you are ripping this verse out of context to fit your idea that just because God moves on us to allow us to choose salvation, that that somehow discredits God and makes his work incomplete.

Not so. Our believing from beginning to end is His work. He gets the all the credit and we get 0, zilch, none.

Leevo · Jan 9, 2016

royal priest said:
Not so. Our believing from beginning to end is His work. He gets the all the credit and we get 0, zilch, none.

Indeed, God gets all the credit. You are bringing up the argument that has already been refuted by kangaroodort claiming that somehow we get credit for our salvation by accepting a free gift...

royal priest · Jan 9, 2016

Leevo said:
Indeed, God gets all the credit. You are bringing up the argument that has already been refuted by kangaroodort claiming that somehow we get credit for our salvation by accepting a free gift...

If you accepted Christ and persevere in His will without God moving you to do so, is there not at least some degree in which you ought to pat yourself on the back?

Leevo · Jan 9, 2016

royal priest said:
If you accepted Christ and persevere in His will without God moving you to do so, is there not at least some degree in which you ought to pat yourself on the back?

Nope! The only thing I did was accept a free gift offered to me by God. Faith is not a work!

I also do not hold to the perseverance of the saints as some other Arminians hold. I think once we are born-again that we are eternally secure in our salvation! (though that may change with further research) This is actually the most disputed doctrine among Arminians that I have found.

royal priest · Jan 9, 2016

Leevo said:
Nope! The only thing I did was accept a free gift offered to me by God. Faith is not a work!

I also do not hold to the perseverance of the saints as some other Arminians hold. I think once we are born-again that we are eternally secure in our salvation! (though that may change with further research) This is actually the most disputed doctrine among Arminians that I have found.

But if you are secure, does that not imply that you will persevere? That's how it is with Calvinists anyway. We think of it terms of preservation=perseverance. Since it is God who saves, God will preserve you by causing you to persevere.

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