Arminianism and Works Righteousness: Seeking Clarification

[BronxBriar]

Dear Friends,

I am a former Roman Catholic who has recently accepted Jesus and been freed from works righteousness. Amen! I am now on a spiritual journey, listening to the Spirit, hoping to be able to find a solid bible based church.

If I may please allow me to ask the baptists in this forum a question: I have often heard baptist theology described as "Armininian". One aspect of that theology that I hear criticized is that the believer "comes to faith" and is therefore saved. The implication is that our salvation, and our acceptance of Christ as Lord is something we "do" and is therefore just another form of works righteousness. What is the appropriate way to respond to this critique? Are there some good online resources regarding baptist theology that you might recommend?

Thank you and God Bless you all.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

http://www.biblebaptist.de

If you go to the resouce page there are several links about theology and Baptist history.
Getting saved is like giving birth, there must be 2 willing partners.
GEL

 

[FreeinChrist]

Dear Friends,

I am a former Roman Catholic who has recently accepted Jesus and been freed from works righteousness. Amen! I am now on a spiritual journey, listening to the Spirit, hoping to be able to find a solid bible based church.

If I may please allow me to ask the baptists in this forum a question: I have often heard baptist theology described as "Armininian". One aspect of that theology that I hear criticized is that the believer "comes to faith" and is therefore saved. The implication is that our salvation, and our acceptance of Christ as Lord is something we "do" and is therefore just another form of works righteousness. What is the appropriate way to respond to this critique? Are there some good online resources regarding baptist theology that you might recommend?

Thank you and God Bless you all.

Congradulations on your decision!! I will pray for your spiritual journey.

Obviously you heard a Calvinist's version of Arminianism.
That is quite a debate, one I don't like to engage in much. I am not a Calvinist, but I appreciate some of their doctrines. But I prefer to just stick with scripture.

I believe "we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ; not by works, lest any man should boast..". Ephesians 2:8-9

(I must point out here, though, that many Baptists are Calvinists. Many are not. That is why I stick with scripture.)

Definition of works - labor, performance, deeds,

We can't earn salvation, we ca't be good enough to earn salvation, or good enough to keep it.


I beleive we must beleive in order to be saved and receive eternal life:
Jhn 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Jhn 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Calvinists have said that a man is incapable of coming to beleif, and that God must change him - make him a new person - and make it possible for it to happen. Therefore, the Calvinist believes that when we say one must believe in Jesus, they consider that a work...but that flies in the face of the Bible, OT and NT. Belief is not a work. You either believe or you don't.

Throughout the Bible, God has demanded belief, that a choice is made. "Choose this day who you will serve..", "whoever believes in Him"
Jhn 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.




So, the God-ward (man to God) action in salvation is belief, accepting the gift of grace.
But before a man beleives, we know this:
Jhn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Jhn 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Jhn 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

God draws us, and if we respond, He gives us to Christ, having granted it to us to come to Christ. Then He does alot:


Col 2:10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; Col 2:11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
Col 2:14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Tts 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Tts 3:6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tts 3:7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to {the} hope of eternal life.




Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,Eph 1:14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God's own} possession, to the praise of His glory.


The 'man-ward part of salvation - God draws us...knowing since the beginning who would respond... and He grants, gives, forgives, cleanses, qualifies, perfects, seals us with His spirit as a pledge from Him, regenerates, renews, establishes us, adopts us - not on the basis of the works we have done but because Jesus died on the cross, and we beleived. (I have scriptural back up for all of this is you have a question)

We do have to beleive.

Now, some resources:

http://www.sbc.net/bfm/default.asphttp://www.sbc.net/bfm/default.asp

http://www.gty.org/~phil/creeds/nh_conf.htm#3

The second site points out that many Baptists are Calcvinists, and the SBC had been calvinist. I had attended SBC churches for many years (40 plus) and found a mix. Presently I atend a nondenom, which also has mix. So I think the difference in doctrines isn't so great, if the Spirit is allowed to work in the church.

hope this helps!

 

[theseed]

Many Baptists are Calvinists. The Southern Baptist Covention big whigs are Calvinists. The SBC is the largest single denomination in the US, even more than Roman Catholics.

 

[BBAS 64]

Dear Friends,

I am a former Roman Catholic who has recently accepted Jesus and been freed from works righteousness. Amen! I am now on a spiritual journey, listening to the Spirit, hoping to be able to find a solid bible based church.

If I may please allow me to ask the baptists in this forum a question: I have often heard baptist theology described as "Armininian". One aspect of that theology that I hear criticized is that the believer "comes to faith" and is therefore saved. The implication is that our salvation, and our acceptance of Christ as Lord is something we "do" and is therefore just another form of works righteousness. What is the appropriate way to respond to this critique? Are there some good online resources regarding baptist theology that you might recommend?

Thank you and God Bless you all.

Good day, BronxBriar

Let me say congrats on you jouney, and the freedom you have found. I am a Baptist who happens to be a Calvinist which is not as rare as one might think there are many like me. I attend a Church that teaches a mix of historical armininian and semi- peliganism as they are hard to seperate now a days.

My trip to Calvinism was not with out some pain to me. I find the calvin ideas to be biblical and allways centered on the work of God to draw his people to faith and out of darkness

Spurgeon has written a defense of Calvinism that represents baptist though with in history that does contuine to this very day. I have given this to my pastor to help him understand the biblical precepts that represent the Calvinist ideals.

Hope this helps,

Bill

 

[theseed]

BBAS, my church is semi Calvinist or Arminist--either way you look at it. And I'm Calvinist, but not by choice (pun intended). I don't like the the fact that Christ does not regenerate all so that they will seek him. But it is what I see in Scripture.

And I must trust God's wisdom. And it trully humbles me, and I cry sometimes because he chose me, even though "there no reason to be given" (Angry God, Edwards)

But to my question. Why do you remain at your church? I have thought about this lately, and I have considered that I agree on everthing else with my Chruch, and they are doing much work for the Kingdom of God.

But some would consider me as comprising, would they not?

One advantage of being Baptist is that we don't have to agree, and can interpret Scripture for ourself, while at the same time be in harmony.

 

[BBAS 64]

BBAS, my church is semi Calvinist or Arminist--either way you look at it. And I'm Calvinist, but not by choice (pun intended). I don't like the the fact that Christ does not regenerate all so that they will seek him. But it is what I see in Scripture.

And I must trust God's wisdom. And it trully humbles me, and I cry sometimes because he chose me, even though "there no reason to be given" (Angry God, Edwards)

But to my question. Why do you remain at your church? I have thought about this lately, and I have considered that I agree on everthing else with my Chruch, and they are doing much work for the Kingdom of God.

But some would consider me as comprising, would they not?

One advantage of being Baptist is that we don't have to agree, and can interpret Scripture for ourself, while at the same time be in harmony.

Good Day, Seed

You all ways ask the hard questions, for that you are to be comended. Why do I remain, there are no Churches who believe the same things in my area that I do. If there was a reformed Baptist Church I would go there. My church turly has a heart for the condition of mans soul, even though they do err IMO as to the complete soverinty of God and his plan for those whom are of the Believing ones.

I have had many talks with my pastor on this issue, I belive he knows where I stand and the process I have gone though in my jouney to the understanding of the doctrine of Grace. He is now asking me question on many issues around Calvinism, and I love to answer them. His understanding of Calvinism is backed up by his traditions of what he bring to the Scripture and from what I can see is based on emotions much like mine where. I do not what to say those are not real, cause they are but are they compleling? I think not.

I do see it as comprising, as this is an inside discussion. I see that one can hold to one side of this issue or the other. One is clearly in err, but the Lord will chose to rescue them from the error based on his own plan for his own Glory.

How do I stay is a other question, it is not easy all he time some times I just want to shout "hey that is not Calvinism" but rather your misunderstanding of it to make your position more acceptable and pleasing to the masses.

Seed it is not an easy road to walk, as you know. I would ask for your prayers in this matter and would welcome any insights you might have.

For His Glory Alone!

Bill

 

[theseed]

However, I tend towards covenant theology

I will pray for you.
My church is moderately large (600 people), and is growing. One of the deacons is directing my college group. And he teaches that no one comes to Christ without the Holy Spirit, and there is no such thing as luck or accidents, becasue God knows what we do and where we are. He emphasizes the Providence of God.

Rarely do I hear soteriological statements from the pulpit, other than a call to come forward and seek Christ as Savior. The Pastor did say that the prayer had nothing special about it, but that it was a condition of the heart.

So I see some forms of Calvinism from the clergy. But If I were to guess, I would say thier are many Calvinist and many Semi-Calvinists--some by name and others not.

I've never seen a Baptist church teach that God choses some people to go to hell, and not others, they focus on the other aspects of Calvinism that have more relevance in Christian walk.

I did hear one statement though from the Pastors son, who is in my college group--he said that God works to bring all people to him. But I did not want to say anything--but he stuttered has he said it . . . hmmmmm.


My church (www.beechgrove.org) is doing a Purpose Driven Life campaign., and Rick Warren, like other writers (Beth Moore) write/slip in comments how God tries to save everbody. So its easy to see where Baptists get thier opiniions from.

I thnk the PDL campaign is a good thing though, and it is helping with the revival that seems to have started in my church--a steady fire that is growing larger.

 

[theseed]

Bronxbriar, I will pray that you find a good bible based church, and that God continues to give you wisdom on your journey.

 

[kayanne]

If I may please allow me to ask the baptists in this forum a question: I have often heard baptist theology described as "Armininian". One aspect of that theology that I hear criticized is that the believer "comes to faith" and is therefore saved. The implication is that our salvation, and our acceptance of Christ as Lord is something we "do" and is therefore just another form of works righteousness. What is the appropriate way to respond to this critique? Are there some good online resources regarding baptist theology that you might recommend?

Thank you and God Bless you all.

Hmmm....I have never heard baptist theology described as "Arminian." I thought baptists were pretty much Calvinistic (kind of the opposite!) In baptist churches I've attended, faith/acceptance of Christ/salvation was believed to be given to believers (the elect) by God, and had nothing to do with the individual person himself.
I happen to disagree with that particular teaching (and much of Calvinism in general). But when anyone tries to argue that coming to faith in Christ and accepting his gift of salvation is a "work," well, that has always sounded a bit far-fetched to me. The word "work" in general has the connotation of "toil" or "labor." When I think of a person who is known for doing "good works" I think of the person who drives the elderly lady at church to the grocery each week, who volunteers at the homeless shelter, teaches Sunday School, takes meals to someone who is ill, helps with yardwork for the neighbor whose heart is failing. Those things are *WORK.* They take time, effort, sweat, and love. Believing in Jesus, repenting from my past, and asking Him to save me--that is a mental action that I did one time, which caused me to be "saved." It certainly wasn't "works righteousness." If I was doing all the things like yardwork and volunteering and making meals etc, and thinking I was "impressing" God with my own goodness and expected to go to heaven on that basis....THAT would be an attempt at "works righteousness."

 

[terry13]

I am not a 5-point Calvinist either.
Further, the advent of 5-point Calvinism into Baptist churches has not met with enough study, in my opinion.

The 5 points of Calvinist thought are (as I understand them)
1. Total inability
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perseverance of the saints

I am of the the conviction that neither Calvinism or Armenianism is totally correct. I believe that the truth lays somewhere in the middle.

1. Total Inability

The teaching of Five-Point Calvinism is that man is totally unable to do anything to obtain salvation. The theory states very emphatically that he cannot repent or believe the Gospel. The teaching is that man cannot believe until he is born again. This new birth is brought about by God who chooses certain individuals and regenerates them. Those whom He regenerates are then capable of believing by virtue of their new birth. Man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ for salvation.
I find the Bible stating the exact opposite. In Acts 17:30 we find that God commands all men everywhere to repent, and that having so commanded, He expects they can and will. In 2 Peter 3:9 we find that God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. If they should come, then they can come. God does not mock men by asking them to do what they cannot do. In Acts 11:18 we are told that God hath granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life. Notice that the repentance comes first and it results in life.
Concerning the statement that man cannot believe the Gospel, and that man cannot believe until his is born again, look at the following scripture- John 1:12, 3:15, 16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 7:39, 12:36, and 20:31. These Scriptures all show that spiritual life follows upon the sinner's believing in Jesus Christ. A notable example is Acts 16:31 where Paul said, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." The full Calvinist in my opinion would twist it to read, "when thou art saved by the Lord Jesus Christ thou shalt believe.”

2. Unconditional Election
The teaching of 5-Point Calvinism is that God has determined and decreed that some are to be saved. This election is not based on God's foreknowing that certain would believe, but is based on His sovereign will to elect certain ones. The Scriptures are very plain that God has His Elect ones who by faith in Jesus Christ are predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son (Rom. 8:29). They are adopted by God and Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4,5). However, this election is plainly declared to be based on the foreknowledge of God (1 Peter 1:2 and Rom. 8:29). Since God knows the end from the beginning He foreknows those who will believe in Christ. He has purposed that they will be to the praise of His glory throughout the ages and through them He will show the exceeding riches of His grace (Eph. 2:7)

Concerning the statement that man does not have a free will by which he is able to come to Christ, please note what Jesus said in John 7:17: "if any man will do His will he shall know of the doctrine." Here He said that a man may will to do God's will. Again in John 5:40 Jesus rebuked the Jews when He said "ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." It was not that they could not come, but that they would not come. In Rev. 22:17 the Word of God declares "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Here God makes a real offer of the water of life to "Whosoever will."

3. Limited Atonement

Calvinist theology states that Christ died on the Cross for the sins of the Elect. To say that He died for the sins of the non-elect is not reasonable. Since, according to absolute Calvinism, God has chosen some to be saved and chosen the rest to be lost, He cannot require the death of Christ for those He does not plan to save anyhow. Therefore the Atonement of Christ is limited to the Elect only.
If one accepts Total Inability and Unconditional Election it is necessary to limit the scope of Christ's death on Calvary. The only problem is that the Scriptures directly state that the death of Christ was for every man and is effective for the sinner the moment he believes. In 1 John 2:2 it is said that His death was a propitiation not only for our sins but for the sins of "the whole world." In Hebrews 2:9 it says that Christ tasted death for "every man." 1 Tim. 2:6 says that He gave Himself a ransom for "all." John the Baptist declared in John 1:29 that Jesus was the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the "world." In Isaiah 53:6 the Word of God states that "all" have gone astray and that the Lord laid on Jesus the iniquity of us "all." Since the Gospel is for "whosoever will" and it consists of the good news that Christ died for sinners, I believe that the Atonement of Christ is not limited.

4. Irresistible grace

Calvinists teach that all those whom God has chosen to be saved will be unable to resist the call of God. Since He has predetermined them to be saved, He effectually calls and regenerates them without any condition to be met on their part.
The Word of God teaches that the Grace of God that bringeth salvation has appeared to all men (Titus 2:11). Since God has provided salvation for all men, and yet all do not come; that is proof enough that men do resist the Grace of God. The Bible gives clear instances of men resisting the Grace of God. Jesus stood over Jerusalem and said that He wanted to gather them unto Himself, but they would not (Matt. 23:37). When Stephen preached to the Jews he said that regarding their attitude toward God's Word they were stiff-necked and that they were resisting the Holy Spirit Who was calling them (Acts 7:51).

5. Perseverance of the Saints

I agree with the last point in the Calvinist system that those whom are saved will persevere to the end and will not depart from the faith. The one who is truly born again is eternally secure in Christ and is never in danger of losing his salvation.