Arminianism and Calvinism. Why only two options?

[GenemZ]

There is life outside of Arminianism and Calvinism.
​

Why is it that when someone tries to explain to Calvinists that some of their tenets may not be exactly correct? That they always accuse you of being an Arminianist? Then automatically shut the door and lock their minds? Even when what you say is not Arminian thinking?



Calvinism is correct in saying that fallen man has no free will in his natural state.

Arminianists claim that we all have the ability somewhere in our hearts to choose God.

As it stands? BOTH are incorrect.


Grace enables the will of man (which has its source in man's soul) which places that soul in a position (as long as grace is being applied) to free up man's soul from the domineering enslavement to the depravity of his flesh.


Without grace being given? Unregenerate man could not be placed in a position to chose for - or, against - God. For his depravity in his flesh would not allow the soul to see what it needs to see, to make a choice.

Yet? While grace is being given to suppress the flesh's influence over the soul? Man, at that point in time, will have his soul "freed up" to either choose for - or, against - God.


The total depravity of man is to be found in the fallen nature of the flesh. Our soul (which comes from God) is a slave to that flesh from birth.


Grace when its operational, makes the believer's soul freed up from his flesh. If grace can do that for us? Why can't the Holy Spirit suppress the dominance of the flesh over a man's soul while he is being given the Gospel? After all? We are saved BY GRACE, through faith.

Without grace no man can believe. For, without Grace's enabling power over our flesh, our souls would remain blind to the Gospel.

In contrast..

Arminianism is wrong in thinking man is born with some innate ability to choose for God. They are wrong. Because that would make man not needing grace for salvation.

Feedback time...
​

Grace and peace, GeneZ



.

 

[jiminpa]

It's a weak debate tactic--give a false label and then charge guilt by association. They know what they believe, but haven't the first clue why, so they go for the win in their own mind, without actually making a point. You usually can't get anywhere with someone who uses that tactic, so just move on. There are a lot of semi-calvinists out there who do know why they believe what they believe and you will have a much better exchange of ideas with them.

 

[GenemZ]

It's a weak debate tactic--give a false label and then charge guilt by association. They know what they believe, but haven't the first clue why, so they go for the win in their own mind, without actually making a point. You usually can't get anywhere with someone who uses that tactic, so just move on. There are a lot of semi-calvinists out there who do know why they believe what they believe and you will have a much better exchange of ideas with them.

Did you read the rest of what I presented? I was not just commenting on the Calvinists debate tactic.

I would like to have what I stated as being the means to how men become saved, debated.

I believe its the answer to how men get saved, and explains why Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and yet only some get saved - not all.

It also shows how what the Calvinists see wrong with Arminianists thinking, is true up to a point... And, how Arminianists see the mechanical cold approach too many Calvinists take, as being impossible in the light of the nature of God's love, justice, and mercy.


Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Nathan45]

"Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?" -- Romans 7:24

...

Interesting discussion.

I'm curious for your opinions as to what relation the idea of total depravity, original sin and free will has to the "inner conflict" discussed in romans 7 ( definately one of the more interesting chapters of romans ) .

7 What then should we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet, if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, ‘You shall not covet.’

8But sin, seizing an opportunity in the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law sin lies dead.

9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived

10and I died, and the very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me.

11For sin, seizing an opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

12So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and just and good.

13 Did what is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, working death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin.

15I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.

16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good.

17But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.

18For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.

19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.

20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand.

22For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self,

23but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind, making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

24Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin.

Some issues:

1) This all appears to be present tense. Does paul have free will? Is he regenerate or unregenerate?

2) Can you really be "born again" before you die the first time? Is it possible to truely "Die in the flesh" without being physically dead?

3) Paul says "I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. " and "with my mind I am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin." what relationship does this have to free will and total depravity?

 

[Nathan45]

I would like to have what I stated as being the means to how men become saved, debated.

It seems to me that if God is omniopotent, omniscient, and created everything, then it follows that God is responsible for everything that happens in the universe. Is the universe deterministic?

Although we make many choices, it seems from my reading of the bible that we only make the choices that we were determined to make from the beginning.

Jn 6:64-65

But among you there are some who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who were the ones that did not believe, and who was the one that would betray him.

And he said, "For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted by the Father."

Romans 9:16

So it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who shows mercy.

Faith could be included in "human will" and exertion is works... while according to christianity the "saved" will have both faith and works, it seems this is only because God allows it.

 

[Ormly]

Arminianism and Calvinism. Why only two options? ​

​

Keeps it simple.

BTW, can you show where God gives 'special grace' to man that he might believe? Try real hard.

​

 

[billychum]

There is life outside of Arminianism and Calvinism.
​

Why is it that when someone tries to explain to Calvinists that some of their tenets may not be exactly correct? That they always accuse you of being an Arminianist? Then automatically shut the door and lock their minds? Even when what you say is not Arminian thinking?



Calvinism is correct in saying that fallen man has no free will in his natural state.

Arminianists claim that we all have the ability somewhere in our hearts to choose God.

As it stands? BOTH are incorrect.


Grace enables the will of man (which has its source in man's soul) which places that soul in a position (as long as grace is being applied) to free up man's soul from the domineering enslavement to the depravity of his flesh.


Without grace being given? Unregenerate man could not be placed in a position to chose for - or, against - God. For his depravity in his flesh would not allow the soul to see what it needs to see, to make a choice.

Yet? While grace is being given to suppress the flesh's influence over the soul? Man, at that point in time, will have his soul "freed up" to either choose for - or, against - God.


The total depravity of man is to be found in the fallen nature of the flesh. Our soul (which comes from God) is a slave to that flesh from birth.


Grace when its operational, makes the believer's soul freed up from his flesh. If grace can do that for us? Why can't the Holy Spirit suppress the dominance of the flesh over a man's soul while he is being given the Gospel? After all? We are saved BY GRACE, through faith.

Without grace no man can believe. For, without Grace's enabling power over our flesh, our souls would remain blind to the Gospel.

In contrast..

Arminianism is wrong in thinking man is born with some innate ability to choose for God. They are wrong. Because that would make man not needing grace for salvation.

Feedback time...
​

Grace and peace, GeneZ



.

So if God’s grace frees up man long enough for man to decide one way or the other. Aren’t we still left wondering if God has any influence in that decision?

Billy <><

 

[ScottBot]

There is life outside of Arminianism and Calvinism.
​

Why is it that when someone tries to explain to Calvinists that some of their tenets may not be exactly correct? That they always accuse you of being an Arminianist? Then automatically shut the door and lock their minds? Even when what you say is not Arminian thinking?



Calvinism is correct in saying that fallen man has no free will in his natural state.

Arminianists claim that we all have the ability somewhere in our hearts to choose God.

As it stands? BOTH are incorrect.


Grace enables the will of man (which has its source in man's soul) which places that soul in a position (as long as grace is being applied) to free up man's soul from the domineering enslavement to the depravity of his flesh.


Without grace being given? Unregenerate man could not be placed in a position to chose for - or, against - God. For his depravity in his flesh would not allow the soul to see what it needs to see, to make a choice.

Yet? While grace is being given to suppress the flesh's influence over the soul? Man, at that point in time, will have his soul "freed up" to either choose for - or, against - God.


The total depravity of man is to be found in the fallen nature of the flesh. Our soul (which comes from God) is a slave to that flesh from birth.


Grace when its operational, makes the believer's soul freed up from his flesh. If grace can do that for us? Why can't the Holy Spirit suppress the dominance of the flesh over a man's soul while he is being given the Gospel? After all? We are saved BY GRACE, through faith.

Without grace no man can believe. For, without Grace's enabling power over our flesh, our souls would remain blind to the Gospel.

In contrast..

Arminianism is wrong in thinking man is born with some innate ability to choose for God. They are wrong. Because that would make man not needing grace for salvation.

Feedback time...
​

Grace and peace, GeneZ



.

Good discussion genez. You post is essentially my take on things.

Maybe we can call it Calvaminianism.

 

[jiminpa]

I personally don't see anywhere in the Bible that explicitly says that sin overcame God's image in us, just polluted it very thoroughly. Darkness can't overcome light, just block it out in places. Which, in my way of thinking fits quite nicely with Romans 1. Don't get me wrong, I don't take "man in God's image" to a new age extreme, I just think that there's still enough in us to leave us with a conscience, and the ability to recognize our need for God.

 

[ScottBot]

I personally don't see anywhere in the Bible that explicitly says that sin overcame God's image in us, just polluted it very thoroughly. Darkness can't overcome light, just block it out in places. Which, in my way of thinking fits quite nicely with Romans 1. Don't get me wrong, I don't take "man in God's image" to a new age extreme, I just think that there's still enough in us to leave us with a conscience, and the ability to recognize our need for God.

That would be a form of semi-pelagianism.

 

[GenemZ]

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Keeps it simple.

BTW, can you show where God gives 'special grace' to man that he might believe? Try real hard.

Its not hard at all. The hard part is the willingness to keep plugging and learning from all sides, and never giving up and surrendering to an unresolved teaching. Your enemies errors may hold other answers that you would have never thought of. Don't close your mind.


Now? Jesus said......

John 6:44 (New International Version)
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
​

​

What Jesus did not say, is that all the Father draws will come to him.

And? How are men to be drawn? Jesus also said how...

John 6:65 (New International Version)
"He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
​

The reason Jesus made those statements was because the Jews who were listening to him, many were attempting to gain salvation by their own energy and efforts - works.

Jesus was telling them, if they are to be saved, that it will because of the Father's working on them to get them to the point of salvation.


Now? Does everyone the Father draws, come to Christ? No...

Romans 1:18-19 (New International Version)
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them."
​

God was drawing these men. He made what they needed to know about God known to them by grace, at that stage of drawing them. One aspect of God's grace is the power of enabling those unable.

God then became wrathful with them. Why? Because grace opened their eyes to what they then turned around and willfully suppressed!

God stopped the drawing process, and as punishment, handed these men over to unrestrained depravity. That is one reason why the pro-gay movement is so vehemently anti-Bible. The spirit of their thinking must suppress truth with evil.




.
​

 

[GenemZ]

1) This all appears to be present tense. Does paul have free will? Is he regenerate or unregenerate?

It appears to be, because Paul is speaking from a retroactive perspective. He is placing himself back to where he once found himself, and reinacting it as being in the present, for the benefit of those presently going through the same situation.

2) Can you really be "born again" before you die the first time? Is it possible to truely "Die in the flesh" without being physically dead?

Those are several different questions, all lumped together!

We do not need to die the first time. For, when we are born? We are born dead spiritually.

Remember?

Adam was told if he ate of the tree, that he would die the day he did?

Well? Did he die physically?

No... He died spiritually!



That is why Jesus said about being born again...

John 3:6 (New International Version)
"Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."
​

When Scripture speaks of us having been *dead* in our transgressions?

That speaks of spiritual death. Not physical!

We need to be born again so we can be made spiritually alive!


.

 

[Ormly]

Its not hard at all. The hard part is the willingness to keep plugging and learning from all sides, and never giving up and surrendering to an unresolved teaching. Your enemies errors may hold other answers that you would have never thought of. Don't close your mind.


Now? Jesus said......

John 6:44 (New International Version)​

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." ​

​

What Jesus did not say, is that all the Father draws will come to him.

And? How are men to be drawn? Jesus also said how...

John 6:65 (New International Version)​

"He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."​

​

The reason Jesus made those statements was because the Jews who were listening to him, many were attempting to gain salvation by their own energy and efforts - works. ​

Jesus was telling them, if they are to be saved, that it will because of the Father's working on them to get them to the point of salvation.​

Now? Does everyone the Father draws, come to Christ? No...​

Romans 1:18-19 (New International Version)​

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them." ​

​

God was drawing these men. He made what they needed to know about God known to them by grace, at that stage of drawing them. One aspect of God's grace is the power of enabling those unable. ​

God then became wrathful with them. Why? Because grace opened their eyes to what they then turned around and willfully suppressed! ​

God stopped the drawing process, and as punishment, handed these men over to unrestrained depravity. That is one reason why the pro-gay movement is so vehemently anti-Bible. The spirit of their thinking must suppress truth with evil. ​

"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
John 14:6 (NKJV)

So which is it?

 

[intricatic]

There is no distinction between flesh and soul. Both are the totality of the individual. When one says that fallen man is totally depraved, that is a statement of total depravity of the totality of the individual.

"The Flesh" is man. Man is spiritual in nature, but man's spirit is part of who he is; his nature is defined by who he is as a total being before a righteous God.

 

[Blank123]

There is life outside of Arminianism and Calvinism.
​

Why is it that when someone tries to explain to Calvinists that some of their tenets may not be exactly correct? That they always accuse you of being an Arminianist? Then automatically shut the door and lock their minds? Even when what you say is not Arminian thinking?


.

because man likes to think inside theological boxes. if what you say falls outside their theological box they have to find another one to force ou into. otherwise the world is a dark and scary places if there are people wandering around without any boxes

 

[Ormly]

There is no distinction between flesh and soul. Both are the totality of the individual. When one says that fallen man is totally depraved, that is a statement of total depravity of the totality of the individual.

"The Flesh" is man. Man is spiritual in nature, but man's spirit is part of who he is; his nature is defined by who he is as a total being before a righteous God.

Since there not to be found in scripture the words, "totally depraved", what do you mean when applying them to man and when do you mean to apply them?

 

[intricatic]

Since there not to be found in scripture the words, "totally depraved", what do you mean when applying them to man and when do you mean to apply them?

Since the words "salvation", "grace", or "peace" doesn't appear in the manuscripts for scriptures, should we also throw them out? The language of theology may not appear directly in scripture, but it is derived from scripture in a direct way.

 

[GenemZ]

There is no distinction between flesh and soul.

What?

You soul leaves the body at death. The soul remains self conscious, but no longer remains locked into the dimensions on earth, of time and space.

Revelation 6:9-10 (New International Version)
"When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"
​

Those were souls without bodies. Who still had self consciousness in the spirit realm of Heaven. In the spirit realm, the soul does not need a physical body for contact with that dimension.

These souls knew very well who they were, and who they are - - without a body!

Our souls while on earth, can not live in the realm of time and space without a link to the material world, which is the flesh = body.

Both are the totality of the individual. When one says that fallen man is totally depraved, that is a statement of total depravity of the totality of the individual.

That is the total expression of the soul while on earth. But its not the soul. The soul is what continues to be you, no matter what kind of body may be next. The resurrection body will be not like the fallen body we now are trapped in.

Your soul continues to have self consciousness and expression after it leaves the body.

Do I really have to explain that to you?

"The Flesh" is man. Man is spiritual in nature, but man's spirit is part of who he is; his nature is defined by who he is as a total being before a righteous God.

While on earth!

Not in Eternity!

Our fallen body (while on earth) places us in a position to make choices for God - or against. We either walk under the control of the Holy Spirit, or choose to follow the dictates of the fallen flesh.

Romans 8:6 (niv/nasb)
"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace."
​

.

 

[Ormly]

Since the words "salvation", "grace", or "peace" doesn't appear in the manuscripts for scriptures, should we also throw them out? The language of theology may not appear directly in scripture, but it is derived from scripture in a direct way.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"
Romans 5:1 (KJV)

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved"
Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)


Please show where the term "total depravity" of man is derived from scripture . . . . . any scripture, OT or NT? In your search I except you not to proof text but to keep context in mind. Thank you.

[You won't find it, my Friend]

 

[GenemZ]

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"
Romans 5:1 (KJV)

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved"
Ephesians 2:5 (KJV)


Please show where the term "total depravity" of man is derived from scripture . . . . . any scripture, OT or NT? In your search I except you not to proof text but to keep context in mind. Thank you.

[You won't find it, my Friend]

Terms are created by the church in order to describe what Scripture reveals.