Arminian Vs. Calvinist

[chestertonrules]

God loves prayer. I love God.

Do you think asking for his mercy matters?

I thought you believed that God would have mercy on whom he wills and nothing we do matters in this regard.

Am I wrong?

 

[Tzaousios]

CaliforniaJosiah and DD2008, I would be grateful if you would see my reply in post #130 at the bottom of page 13. Thanks.

 

[Thekla]

He didn't fail at all. Adam failed and our sin is imputed through him. We are sinners.

God allowed all of this to happen and by his Soverign edict has destined all things to turn out for the good as decided by his good will.

We just trust in God to know better than we.

Are the elect created in the image of God, or are they a "different creation" ?

 

[chestertonrules]

No fallen man can love God unless he gives them the grace to do so. I am only a christian by the grace of God.

Circular reasoning. Unbiblical reasoning.

God gives all men the grace that enables them to follow him.

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

 

[Thekla]

A HUGE question occurs to me:

what is the Calvinist definition or understanding of the image of God ?

 

[Tzaousios]

CaliforniaJosiah and DD2008, I would be grateful if you would see my reply in post #130 at the bottom of page 13. Thanks.

A HUGE question occurs to me:

what is the Calvinist definition or understanding of the image of God ?

I have wondered the same thing.

 

[DD2008]

Again, I do not think for Thekla, and definitely not for me, that we hold that man is able to save himself. This would be the Pelagian heresy. We both affirm also that God is the judge. You have not answered the question: how does the Calvinist reconcile the fact that their system says that evil and sin, things which he did not create, totally destroyed something which God specifically created and bestowed upon man to make him different than animals, plants, and inanimate objects? He did not have to give us his image, but Genesis clearly says he did and God does not do things without a purpose.[/

quote]

Because man judged God a liar and ate of the tree of knowledge. Man trusted the snake and eve more than God.

Now with knowledge of good and evil he has chosen evil and God cursed him because of it. Due to that curse we die. We are children of Adam. His sinful nature is imputed to us. We can only be saved by God's grace.

Here is a link on Total Depravity.

http://www.the-highway.com/depravity_Boettner.html

CaliforniaJosiah and DD2008, I would be grateful if you would see my reply in post #130 at the bottom of page 13. Thanks.[/

quote]

 

[MamaZ]

Are the elect created in the image of God, or are they a "different creation" ?

When you say in the image of God what are you saying?

 

[Chesterton]

A HUGE question occurs to me:

what is the Calvinist definition or understanding of the image of God ?

I think I could accurately answer that, but I'd probably get another staff notice.

 

[MamaZ]

Do you believe that God looks like us? Is this the image you are protraying? Or that we are created with intellegence ,emotion ,and wills?

 

[MamaZ]

Does God create each one of us as He did Adam and call each one of us good?

 

[DD2008]

A HUGE question occurs to me:

what is the Calvinist definition or understanding of the image of God ?

John Calvin on the issue:

"Since the image of God had been destroyed in us by the fall, we may judge from its restoration what it originally had been. Paul says that we are transformed into the image of God by the gospel. And, according to him, spiritual regeneration is nothing else than the restoration of the same image. (Colossians 3:10, and Ephesians 4:23.)"

Link: http://branemrys.blogspot.com/2005/07/john-calvin-on-image-of-god.html

 

[chestertonrules]

Does God create each one of us as He did Adam and call each one of us good?

You previously said that God knew the Fall was coming. Why, then, did he call Adam good?

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

This is a good point. I never understood how the Imago Dei in man could be utterly defaced and destroyed by the evil of sin, which, although Calvinists say God ordained for his ultimate purpose, did not in fact create. How can something that God did not create utterly destroy something he did create?

Calvin believed individuals retained at least some portion of the image of God after the fall. I think "utterly" and "destroyed" are too strong to describe the Calvinist positions regarding the image of God. "Marred" or "impaired" would be more accurate.

But behind that is the key issue: What exactly is the image of God?

Different traditions have different answers. Even within traditions there are a lot of different views.


LDG

 

[Thekla]

When you say in the image of God what are you saying?

I'm using the terminology of Genesis; we were created in the image and toward the likeness of God.

It seems the image of God - per what I've read here - can be destroyed by evil.

Are the elect created in the image of God, or (since the image of God can be utterly destroyed by evil per the Calvinist position) are the elect some other sort of creation ?

 

[DD2008]

Circular reasoning. Unbiblical reasoning.

God gives all men the grace that enables them to follow him.

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32

For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

Again, unless you believe in universalism those verses mean all of a group: the Elect.

Christs atonement is sufficient for every person but it is limited in effectiveness for just the elect as they are the ones who will be in heaven.

 

[simonthezealot]

how does the Calvinist reconcile the fact that their system says that evil and sin, things which he did not create, totally destroyed something which God specifically created and bestowed upon man to make him different than animals, plants, and inanimate objects? He did not have to give us his image, but Genesis clearly says he did and God does not do things without a purpose.

It's within Gods tolerance to acheive his ends.

ROM 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
PSA 147:5 Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.

 

[DD2008]

You previously said that God knew the Fall was coming. Why, then, did he call Adam good?

Because God created time as well, so that statment was true once.

 

[Tzaousios]

Because man judged God a liar and ate of the tree of knowledge. Man trusted the snake and eve more than God.

Now with knowledge of good and evil he has chosen evil and God cursed him because of it. Due to that curse we die. We are children of Adam. His sinful nature is imputed to us. We can only be saved by God's grace.

Here is a link on Total Depravity.

With all due respect, please reread my remarks in #130 and before. You still have not answered the question that Thekla and I have posted several times. I know the TULIP and its definitions. But how is "T" reconciled with the Image of God in man? Sin and evil, which God did not create, cannot totally destroy something he created and called good. And, just because I said "good" does not mean I am denying the gravity of the fall or the sufficiency of Christ's atonement.

When you say in the image of God what are you saying?

Please see my post #130 at the botthom of page 13. Also, this is the text to which I have been referring:

Genesis 1:27-30

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.

 

[chestertonrules]

Again, unless you believe in universalism those verses mean all of a group: the Elect.

Christs atonement is sufficient for every person but it is limited in effectiveness for just the elect as they are the ones who will be in heaven.

The word elect is not there.

I don't believe in universalism. I believe God has given us sufficient grace to be saved, but we must respond to and cooperate with this grace.


You are merely repeating Calvinist dogma. Your words have NOTHING to do with the verses I posted.