Arminian Vs. Calvinist

[DD2008]

You change the meaning of each passage to fit your dogma

.

I think the same of your position.

 

[chestertonrules]

Right. For fallen man who is full of pride it is.

1 Corinthians 2:14-16

[14] The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
[15] The spiritual man judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
[16] "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

There is nothing more prideful than the Calvinist notion that God chose them for eternal paradise while rejecting others.

There is nothing more dangerous or prideful than the notion that you cannot lose your salvation.

 

[MamaZ]

Was God surprised by the Fall?

Did he ordain it?

Surprised? I doubt it.. Did he fall off His throne because of the Fall? Absoulutely not. Is God still sovereign? You bet He is. Did He ordain it? He allowed it.

 

[chestertonrules]

I think the same of your position.

You add words to scripture, or change their order.

I accept the words as written.

 

[chestertonrules]

Surprised? I doubt it.. Did he fall off His throne because of the Fall? Absoulutely not. Is God still sovereign? You bet He is. Did He ordain it? He allowed it.

So the Fall had absolutely nothing to do with who goes to heaven or hell according your beliefs?

 

[Thekla]

we read in the scripture where we see after the fall that no one does good no not one.. So why is that do you believe? Why do we also read in the scriptures that the god of this world is now not God but the devil? This is why we are aliens and strangers in this world when we are Christs. For His kingdom is not of this World. Full of sin and death and misery.

so if no-one does good, then what of those that scripture calls "righteous" and "pleasing to God" ?

 

[Thekla]

My friend,

Surely you are not suggesting that Christ's atoning work was insuffient or that He was an incompletely, unsuccessful Savior.

no, I was indicating that this is the logical conclusion of the statement I referenced.

 

[Hentenza]

Unbelievable! You change the meaning of each passage to fit your dogma.

Instead of making such a statement based on opinion, why don't you present evidence of alternate interpretations?

 

[DD2008]

You add words to scripture, or change their order.

I accept the words as written.

The bible has to be read as the complete word of God. If you pick and choose verses you will always take them out of context like you do.

The bible doesn't contradict itself in matters of spiritual truth. So the entire bible must be taken into consideration if any passage is to be understood.

That's what calvin did. He simply expounded on what the bible said.

 

[Thekla]

So, if I understand correctly, there is no good in creation after the Fall.
IE, this feature of what God creates is "destroyable" by evil.

So those who come into being after the Fall - some are created by God in the image of God (the elect) and some are created by Him in the image of evil ?

 

[chestertonrules]

Instead of making such a statement based on opinion, why don't you present evidence of alternate interpretations?

I guess I will, but it will take a lot of space!

Matt 7
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
​

Who's judging. Calvinists simply accept the bible for what it says. God is the judge, that's what we have been saying.

That's not the point of this verse. The point is our actions and how we judge others will impact how God judges us. This directly contradicts unconditional election.

Matt 7

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
9"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!
​

Sure prayer is a good thing. It is a great idea to repent and ask forgiveness for your sins. Why did the person want to ask God I wonder? Because God gave him the grace to believe!

This doesn't say that God gave him the grace to believe. This is a case of reading your dogma into the scripture.

The Wise and Foolish Builders

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
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Right. Faith without works is dead, so if one doesn't produce fruit and follow the words of Christ it is indicative that he is not regenerate and does not realy believe.

That's not what it says. It says that the wise builder HEARS the words and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE. This directly contradicts unconditional election.

Matt 10

32"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
​

True. Christ is faithful to his Elect. No one can take them out of his hand.

This says nothing about Christ being faithful to his elect. Jesus is talking about acknowledging us for our actions. Yet again to insert your dogma into scripture.

40"He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. 41Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. 42And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."
​

Again God is faithful and true to his family. Why would anyone believe that a person preaching the gospel is a friend of God? Because God gave them the grace to believe that. Because he is revealing his election of that person.

This says nothing about being faithful to his family. This says IF ANYONE gives to the disciples he will not lose his reward. ANYONE! Again, you are reading your dogma into scripture and distorting the meaning.

Matt 16

24Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever wants to save his life[h] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. 26What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.
​

This is an excellent passage that shows that man is fallen. If he naturally wanted the things of God he wouldn't have to deny himself to follow Christ! So one is dead in their sins. One must be reborn live forever. Like birth the rebirth isn't a choice it just happens because God wills it. So when one is reborn his spirit is dead to sin and his old self is put aside. Now he is a new creation and is alive in Christ and lives to do His will.


This says nothing about wanting the things of God. It speaks of personal sacrifice. It tells us that God will reward us based on what we have done, not based on whether our name was drawn out of a hat.

 

[Tzaousios]

My friend,

Surely you are not suggesting that Christ's atoning work was insuffient or that He was an incompletely, unsuccessful Savior.

This is begging the question and only serves to try and demonize the other side which neither Thekla nor I have done. What she wrote was in the context of a question and not a definitive statement of the doctrine of her side.

In response to your reply, Orthodoxy does in fact leave things like the issue of God's sovereignty and man's responsibility to the realm of divine mystery. However, when the Reformed side makes it a point to define and systematize the mystery, and uneven logic crops up, it must be pointed out and dealt with.

Evil is a fact of life after the fall. Man cannot save himself because his fallen nature desires evil. So, God saves him. God is the judge not man. God will save who He will. Full freedom from sin and full glorification comes in heaven. Here those regenerated are given the grace to believe and the grace to persevere. Their old self passes away and they are a new creation in Christ with new desires of the heart.

Again, I do not think for Thekla, and definitely not for me, that we hold that man is able to save himself. This would be the Pelagian heresy. We both affirm also that God is the judge. You have not answered the question: how does the Calvinist reconcile the fact that their system says that evil and sin, things which he did not create, totally destroyed something which God specifically created and bestowed upon man to make him different than animals, plants, and inanimate objects? He did not have to give us his image, but Genesis clearly says he did and God does not do things without a purpose.

Genesis 1:27-31

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”
29 And God said, “See, I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. 30 Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food”; and it was so. 31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good.

 

[MamaZ]

So the Fall had absolutely nothing to do with who goes to heaven or hell according your beliefs?

The fall is what put mankind in the position of being sinners.

 

[Chesterton]

A natural man will not love God.

Of course he will not love God. He has no will. He was created programmed to not love God, no?

They are seperated from Him.

By God's doing, right? So I could hardly blame them for not loving God. It's God's fault they don't love Him. (BTW, that's an odd place to put a smiley.)

This is why we can love God is because He first loved us. Salvation is not a lottery,

That seems a mercenary kind of love. "I love you for destroying those other guys and not me."

Why are you born? Because you got lucky and won a cosmic lottery?

Noone dictates the terms of their birth, nor do they dictate the terms of their rebirth.

I don't know, but I know that according to Calvin, my eternal fate depends solely on whether God picked me or not - then there are two kinds of people - the fortunate and the unfortunate.

Rebrobates do not love God, that's why they'd rather be in hell than heaven.

Of course they don't love God. How could they? God created them not to love Him. They don't have the will to choose to love Him, right? Am I missing something?

 

[MamaZ]

so if no-one does good, then what of those that scripture calls "righteous" and "pleasing to God" ?

is it because they are good? Or is it because of their faith?

 

[chestertonrules]

The fall is what put mankind in the position of being sinners.

Since we agree that God knew about the Fall beforehand, it is quite irrelevant.

We are as God designed us to be, which is sinners, according to your analysis.

 

[DD2008]

So, if I understand correctly, there is no good in creation after the Fall.
IE, this feature of what God creates is "destroyable" by evil.

So those who come into being after the Fall - some are created by God in the image of God (the elect) and some are created by Him in the image of evil ?

God is going to destroy the earth completely in the end and make a new one.

 

[Thekla]

is it because they are good? Or is it because of their faith?

is faith in God good ?

 

[DD2008]

I don't know, but I know that according to Calvin, my eternal fate depends solely on whether God picked me or not - then there are two kinds of people - the fortunate and the unfortunate.

The reprobate would consider being picked unfortunate. So really everyone gets what they would rather have.

They don't like hell but they don't like heaven even more. It's the things in hell that maek it hell. Hell is full of burning wickedness.

 

[Chesterton]

That's what calvin did. He simply expounded on what the bible said.

Ah, we've identified the culprit - sola scriptura.