• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Arkansas House Votes to Allow Teaching of Creationism in Science Classes

Status
Not open for further replies.

sjastro

Newbie
May 14, 2014
5,769
4,703
✟349,340.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It's pronounced "R-Kansas".

(Not really, it pronounced "R-Can-Saw" while regular Kansas is pronounced "Can-zass".)
There is more to this that meets the eye.
The ansas in Arkansas is Finnish for truss (structure made up of one or more triangular units made from straight beams of wood or metal, which is used to support a structure as in a roof or bridge).

The ansas clearly refers to the roof structure of the Ark.
It's obvious the long term objective is the creation of a creationist state; next will be the renaming of Little Rock as Noahville and all first born males will be called Noah.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Bradskii
Upvote 0

renniks

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2008
10,682
3,449
✟156,970.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The bill says "creationism" explicitly. IDists worked really hard to separate ID from creationism, to no avail.



Hey, man. Let's just open the flood gates. Teach it all. Satanism is a legit religion, too ya know. Ironically, their creation story aligns pretty well with science, so...
Since most cultures have creation stories, I think you are just grasping. And you can learn about all kinds of religions in college, so why not start in high school, and understand that the predominant view of the world down through history has always included a creator. I daresay the view that there isn't one is very much a minority view in the history of the world.
 
Upvote 0

ripple the car

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 9, 2010
9,072
11,924
✟132,035.94
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Hank77

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2015
26,642
15,693
✟1,220,790.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Since most cultures have creation stories, I think you are just grasping. And you can learn about all kinds of religions in college, so why not start in high school, and understand that the predominant view of the world down through history has always included a creator. I daresay the view that there isn't one is very much a minority view in the history of the world.
This is to start in kindergarten.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Since most cultures have creation stories, I think you are just grasping. And you can learn about all kinds of religions in college, so why not start in high school, and understand that the predominant view of the world down through history has always included a creator. I daresay the view that there isn't one is very much a minority view in the history of the world.
Still is, nothing to do with teaching biblical creationism. Being it's Arkansas, I seriously doubt that the class will be an even-handed survey of world creation stories--more likely indoctrination in Evangelical doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Even better. Indoctrinating kids to believe they are just smart chimps is no doubt a leading cause of depression by the time they reach the teen years.
Yeah, that would be as much of a mistake as teaching them that science is a lie and the world is only 6000 years old.
 
Upvote 0

Ponderous Curmudgeon

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2021
1,477
944
66
Newfield
✟38,862.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Teaching Creationism or, more precisely, teaching "Creation science" has been ruled unconstitutional in several courts, but teaching of the existence of some alternate theories concerning the origin of the universe--turtles included--is not. Many elementary and secondary schools teach about the culture of pre-Columbian peoples, for example.
Theories are taught in science classes, origin myths are taught as cultural history. You are right that there is no problem teaching cultural history, but that is not what this bill is about as some poor school district will find out.
see
Epperson v. Arkansas - Wikipedia
Edwards v. Aguillard - Wikipedia
Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District - Wikipedia
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Origin myths are also theories. (and that's the wording used in the title of HB1730)
Something they should have learned in science class is that to formally be considered a theory, a proposition has to have reasonable amount of confirming evidence.
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Theories are taught in science classes, origin myths are taught as cultural history. You are right that there is no problem teaching cultural history, but that is not what this bill is about as some poor school district will find out.
see
Epperson v. Arkansas - Wikipedia
Edwards v. Aguillard - Wikipedia
Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District - Wikipedia
Oh, and I would hate to have to teach that class. Have any of you ever taught in a high school? I have never seen a creationist argument that a class of reasonably smart AP biology students couldn't make mincemeat of.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Fact-Based Lifeform
Oct 17, 2011
42,154
45,270
Los Angeles Area
✟1,007,830.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
The actual bill is just a few sentences long. It doesn't define creationism or specify any particular curriculum. What it really is, is intended to be a fig leaf of legal protection so teachers will feel emboldened to teach creationism according to their own lights.

Regardless, it just means the school districts are going to get sued (and maybe the teachers themselves) and they are going to lose in court and cost taxpayers money, just as in Dover v Kitzmiller.
  1. 28 6-16-152. Creationism.
  2. 29 (a) A teacher of a kindergarten through grade twelve (K-12) science

  3. 30 class at a public school or open-enrollment public charter school may teach

  4. 31 creationism as a theory of how the earth came to exist.

  5. 32 (b) This section is permissive and does not require a teacher to teach

  6. 33 creationism as a theory of the earth came to exist.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Site Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,855,776
52,552
Guam
✟5,135,188.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Oh, and I would hate to have to teach that class. Have any of you ever taught in a high school? I have never seen a creationist argument that a class of reasonably smart AP biology students couldn't make mincemeat of.
Here's a test I made up:

Creationist Test:
  1. Explain the difference between creatio ex nihilo and creatio ex materia; and give two examples of each.
  2. Explain the difference between "God" and "LORD God".
  3. Eden in the Bible is known as __________ on a map.
  4. The triune Godhead is a violation of what law?
  5. Put the following in order that they appeared in the universe: whales, stars, trees, sun, land, sea, outer space.
  6. What day was Adam created on?
  7. Was the universe created a closed system and, if not, what kind of energy did it run off of? if it was created open, what closed it?
  8. Describe terra aqua and what kind of water it consisted of and why.
  9. Photosynthesis required light from the sun prior to the Fall. true or false?
  10. Explain how a 24-hour day could transpire before the sun was created.
 
Upvote 0

keith99

sola dosis facit venenum
Jan 16, 2008
23,111
6,801
72
✟378,451.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Of course they have to pick which version of creationism to teach... the 'Noah's ark came here from another planet' one would be fun.

I rather like the one where Earth is resting on the backs of 4 elephants standing on the back of a giant turtle!
 
Upvote 0

Ponderous Curmudgeon

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2021
1,477
944
66
Newfield
✟38,862.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Origin myths are also theories. (and that's the wording used in the title of HB1701)
Which is basically the problem, the persons, and you apparently, who wrote this bill do not understand the difference between the colloquial use of the word theory and its meaning in the sciences and as it has been understood as law when referring to the teaching of science in the US.
 
Upvote 0

sjastro

Newbie
May 14, 2014
5,769
4,703
✟349,340.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
While I have made a joke or two in this thread on a more serious note if this germ of an idea takes off and goes national in your country the beneficiaries will be your enemies China and Russia.

A form of education which decides to put the conclusion first and work backwards is the antithesis to the development of critical thinking skills.
The technological advantage your country has over your opponents is through scientists and engineers who are products of critical thinking education.

The danger is the creation of a generation lacking in critical thinking skills and with it the evaporation of any technological advantage the US has over its opponents.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: ArchieRaptor
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Which is basically the problem, the persons, and you apparently, who wrote this bill do not understand the difference between the colloquial use of the word theory and its meaning in the sciences and as it has been understood as law when referring to the teaching of science in the US.
Of course I do, but the point is that the bill apparently has been crafted in order to avoid the reasons for the failure of earlier attempts in the courts.

It is probably possible to reveal to students what other people think accounts for the origin of the universe without attempting to "prove" them as if they were science. "Creation science" so-called, had attempted in the past to show a supposedly scientific basis for a direct act of creation by some superior intelligence, i.e. God.
 
Upvote 0

Ponderous Curmudgeon

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2021
1,477
944
66
Newfield
✟38,862.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Divorced
Of course I do, but the point is that the bill apparently has been crafted in order to avoid the reasons for the failure of earlier attempts in the courts.

It is probably possible to reveal to students what other people think accounts for the origin of the universe without attempting to "prove" them as if they were science. "Creation science" so-called, had attempted in the past to show a supposedly scientific basis for a direct act of creation by some superior intelligence, i.e. God.
Actually, it is particularly poorly crafted for that purpose. There has never been an impediment to teaching cultural accounts of origin ideas. In that sense the proposed law is pointless. However Creationism has the specific meaning that life is the result of the actions of a divine being. This already runs into first amendment issues as to which creationism to teach. Theory however as used in the sciences as opposed to colloquially is understood to be a part of methodological naturalism where possible supernatural influences are not considered. The combination of the two in this short sentence is guaranteed to create legal hassles as it immediately pits two different educational objectives against each other, both of which have already had their appropriate spheres of influence adjudicated.
 
Upvote 0

durangodawood

re Member
Aug 28, 2007
27,473
19,169
Colorado
✟536,492.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Single
Origin myths are also theories. (and that's the wording used in the title of HB1701)
Yeah they are religious theories.

We also have literary theories, music theory, critical theory (whatever that is). None of those are scientific theories. Nor is creation.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.