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Argument for God's existence.

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by gradyll, Apr 4, 2019.

  1. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    You’re the one who keeps bringing up the bandwagon fallacy as an objection to any scientific consensus that is inconvenient to your thesis. As soon as you stop I’ll stop directing you to this knock-down argument against that objection.

    We’re talking about the value of a scientific consensus in principle. If you want to discuss some kind of evidence directly, that’s fine, but ultimately it doesn’t matter what you think because you are not qualified to evaluate the evidence in the way that the scientific community is.
     
  2. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    Realize that your the only one who thinks this argument is valid. I have not seen another athiests or agnostics attempt to validate a band wagon fallacy. Your the first in over ten years, so why aren't others believing the same thing? Now I say this to use the bandwagon fallacy against you, to see if you spot it. You say the majority of scientists agreement on something makes it true. Well several hundred years ago the majority of scientists believed in God, does that make it true (at least for them?.). See under this argument it would be true that God existed, until disproven by science. So then by that definition there was in fact scientific proof of God in the past. So you refute yourself.

    secondly, Scientism cannot prove a single fact. So to use them as your sole evidence is faulty. And I suppose this is why your the first agnostic to believe this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  3. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    If that was what he said, then you would be right about the Bandwagon Fallacy. But that's not what he said. Their opinion doesn't cause something to be true. If the majority of people who are knowledgable about a subject make a claim about that subject, then that is evidence the claim is probably accurate.
    That would be an Appeal to False Authority that I pointed out you used in the other thread, "Where does morality come from?". Scientists aren't authorities on the subject of God. In fact, I'd go so far to say that no one is. Theologians are experts on religion, not God Himself.
     
  4. Eight Foot Manchild

    Eight Foot Manchild His Supreme Holy Correctfulness

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    That is FALSE.

    What the actual consensus says, is that the Big Bang accounts for the earliest known conditions, expansion, and early evolution of the universe.

    That is not to be equivocated with the ex nihilo 'creation' of the totality of existence, which is what you are doing here. There is no 'consensus' about what constitutes the totality of existence - whether the universe is all there is to it, or not. Cosmology has nothing at all to say about anything pre-Planck time, because none of our current physics are capable of addressing it.

    You've been corrected on this point at least a half-dozen times. Kindly stop spreading this canard for the sake of your crappy apologetics.
     
  5. Ed1wolf

    Ed1wolf Well-Known Member

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    1. Since according to Einstein, laws require a lawgiver, for the universe that lawgiver is most likely God since only a being like Him could create a universe like this one.

    2. He had an additional reason to make it so large and mostly uninhabitable and that is because He foresaw that humans would rebel against Him and do evil things. He did not want that evil to be widespread throughout the universe so by making it so large and hard to travel from earth He kept it localized to earth.

    But from what we do know about the rest of the universe and what is necessary for life, it is highly unlikely.

    See above.

    Yes, but see above. And if there are other life forms they are most likely to be something more like bacteria not advanced creatures due to the hostile environments on other planets.

    No, I didnt use the argument from ignorance, I used an argument from knowledge. What we know about effects and how we reason from the effects to determine a cause, this is done everyday in science.

    No, I am referring only to real religious beliefs not something made up with hindsight to try to win argument. And that has many people that actually believe in it.

    Even if it was eternal (which goes against all the evidence so far as I have shown in other posts) it is still contingent since everything in it is contingent therefore there is something upon which it depends for its existence and that would most likely be God.

    That primarily happened because at first after Darwin came up with his theory the evidence seemed to strongly support his theory so Christians became intimidated especially after the Scopes Trial but then later the tide turned with the discovery of DNA in the 1950's and ever since then the scientific evidence in both cosmology and biology has started strongly pointing toward an intelligent designer.

    Many reasons. For one the systematic gaps in the fossil record between genera and phyla. And how even beneficial mutations result in a net loss over time of genetic information resulting in what is called genetic entropy and therefore making it impossible to progress toward a more advanced organism.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  6. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    I can do this all day, Gradyll. Your hand-waving isn’t going to make this go away. Please actually engage these points:

    So this is yet another fallacy you gleefully misuse every single time. You're going to have to read Where does morality come from? again.

    The difference between the bandwagon fallacy and the scientific consensus is that we actually have good reason other than mere consensus to believe the scientific community knows best on scientific matters. We know that scientists are far more educated than the average person and that they are the ones most familiar with the data and evidence, plus they are most qualified to interpret it. The bandwagon fallacy, on the other hand, contains no such premise.

    The reason logical fallacies are so convincing is because they are so close to legitimate logical arguments. Scientific consensus is the legitimate argument that the bandwagon fallacy imitates to make it so appealing. You’re doing the opposite here, which is just as fallacious. You’re rejecting the legitimate argument on the grounds that it’s so close to the fallacy. Which is a little funny, but not unexpected.


    As Nicholas Deka has told you, the fact that scientist all agree about something doesn’t make it true, but it counts as evidence that it’s probably true. So when you ask people for evidence of something and they point to the scientific consensus, that counts. That’s evidence.
     
  7. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    To be fair, I don't know if he's just ignoring me or if I'm actually on his Ignore List at this point. I'm correcting all of his many mistakes for the sake of any lurkers that actually want to understand how to make a logical argument. He seems to be responding to show people how not to.
     
  8. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    First and foremost, you are not providing evidence for God. No more or less so then appealing to evidence for 'universe-creating pixies' anyways.

    If your unfounded blank assertion is true, then your asserted God would also have a 'law giver'. Unless you then invoke special pleading? - Yet another example of fallacious reasoning....

    Come on now... Seriously? It doesn't even mention this type of explanation in the Bible. You appear to be starting to grasp at straws.

    Following your logic, it would appear that God already knew humans would become 'wicked'.

    A better question might be... Why knowingly create something so wicked and allow it to continue for thousands/millions of years across the globe? What's the difference really - (containing it to this world only vs a larger/greater area)?


    We have explored a very small area thus far. We have no clue what lurks out there....

    I again ask.... What IF there exists intelligent life out there? Intelligent enough to communicate and harbor cognitive thoughts like humans? Then what?


    Nope. You did, I'm afraid. You stated, 'what else could it be?' Instead of using evidence to demonstrate the existence of your specific God, you instead deduced that it 'has to be God.' Also, "every law has a law giver". So why couldn't it just as well be 'universe-creating pixies?"

    Also, there exists no scientific theory regarding an initial origin over being eternal. It remains theoretical...

    You see, you are begging the question. The 'evidence for God's existence' actually requires evidence for His existence. Thu far, you have presented a small series of 'rule outs', and then assert your God.

    Well, thus far, your arguments violate reasoning. Meaning, demonstrating fallacious reasoning.


    It's not about 'winning an argument.' As I stated a while back...

    Demonstrate the existence of your specific God, and game over. Until then, you can quote Bible passages, 'connect dots', express how many people have believed for centuries, and maybe even argue for 'divine hiddeness.'

    If God's existence was 'known', then this entire topic would not exist.

    So I again ask, where exists this direct evidence?


    Um, like I stated prior, I can provide credible attachments, demonstrating the likelihood that the universe is eternal; just like you can provide the contrary :) As I stated, it is a divided topic entirely. Unlike biologists and the conclusion of 'macroevolution'.

    Again, if the universe is eternal, the concept of creation becomes silly.


    And yet, but not that it really matters, it would appear a larger majority of such are not Yahweh believers.

    The more many study, the harder it becomes for many to retain the same fundamental beliefs. Again, just an observation. The number of believers/non-believers is not really relevant.

    But even IF some intentional agent WAS the creator of our known universe, why assume this agent still exists, is perfect, and is 'good'? Side questions, yes, but still curious....



    Maybe you should attempt to publish a paper, have it peer reviewed, and challenge the scientific community. It's been said, not by me, that evolutionary theory is widely supported. If you have ground-breaking crucial data to share, why not share it with authority? You could be famous :)
     
  9. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    out of that text wall this was the only logical argument I saw and it fails for one simple reason: you provide not evidence for it. So simply saying you have "good reason" is not a good enough " reason" when you keep that reason to yourself, or more likely don't have it.
     
  10. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    In any case, you put it in a way that didn’t occur to me, so I thank you for that!
     
  11. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    You want evidence for the fact that scientists are better at science than laymen? Well, other than the fact that that’s their job and they’re required to go through higher education and discover something new to earn the title, scientists are responsible in part for all of the technology that surrounds you and even enables this conversation to take place. Your objection to scientific consensus as good evidence rests on your assumption that scientists aren’t any better-informed than laymen on matters of science, and the evidence for that just isn’t there.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  12. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    no sir, you repeatedly say that evolution is true because science believes it. But hundreds of years ago, science believed God was creator. So apparently science can be wrong by your own admission. For your theory to work, you must believe God was creator at least until proven wrong by science, so that means that for a few hundred years, that God existed because science had not proven that there was no evidence of Him existing (still hasn't). And thus if He existed then, then He can exist today.

    So really, I don't see why you keep trying to say this stuff, it is so obviously wrong.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  13. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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  14. Ed1wolf

    Ed1wolf Well-Known Member

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    No, because in all cases the eye is doing what it is supposed to be doing, IOW it is fully functional even if it is "simpler". If evolution were true, there would be eyes still under construction and therefore not fully functional yet.
     
  15. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    Think about what you’re saying. Every eye is fully functional as long as it’s doing what it does. You’re proposing evolution produce an eye that does nothing. That’s not how evolution works.
     
  16. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    No, I repeatedly correct you every time you accuse me of saying that. What’s sad is that you make no effort to understand it, you’re just so committed to being wrong. You can kick and scream about how it’s not fair that I get to use science to support my position and there’s no science supporting yours, but that could easily be fixed if you’d just take a better position.
     
  17. cvanwey

    cvanwey Well-Known Member

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    In case this point has not already been drilled down extensively; doesn't it seem odd that a claimed all powerful God's existence is still being debated after such time?

    It also appears odd that God used to 'intervene' with His creation often, but now chooses to remain 'hidden' to many/most.

    Seems as though the mundane knowledge of the one true God's existence might be common knowledge by now?

    And yet, instead, theists appear reduced to presenting such argumentation for His mere existence, to this day; and most likely moving forward.

    Does anyone have anything tangible/useful/relevant to at least lay to rest further skepticism, doubt, or disbelief for His claimed mere existence?
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
  18. Moral Orel

    Moral Orel Proud Citizen of Moralton Supporter

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    [​IMG]
     
  19. gradyll

    gradyll In the grip of grace

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    yes I am jealous over a group of scientists that cannot prove basic facts (that they don't support my theory). I hope you can tell I am joking. But by the way the majority of scientists (52%) believe in either God or a higher power.

    Scientists and Belief

    so I guess you can say the consensus are theists. It's just that the majority are not creationists, they are theistic creationists. But that is because they don't know that there is no evidence. They assume the majority can't be wrong. Even though the majority was wrong a few hundred years ago.
     
  20. gaara4158

    gaara4158 I prefer you trust your reason.

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    52% isn’t a consensus, and the existence of God isn’t a scientific question so the opinion of scientists isn’t actually relevant. Try again.

    And of course you’ve just completely made up your assertion that biologists who accept evolution merely do so because they are unaware that there is no evidence. You have no evidence for that.
     
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