Argument for God's existence.

[Skreeper]

as far as hells are concerned, eternal burning hell I believe takes the cake. I would rather sit on a bed of nails. Or get cut up, or hanged repeatedly. Most religion's hells are a cake walk compared to burning every cell in your body in an unending way. See my other post how burning a skin cell hurts more than cutting one. Besides most religions fail philosophically. Most religions don't reveal a Holy God. And most religions don't reveal the depravity of man, and most religions don't reveal that man is bound for Hell naturally. Most religions are by good works, but if man is depraved and imperfect, how can he attain a perfection? It's not possible philosophically. That is why most if not all religions fail just on those few points. Christianity passes all of those tests with flying colors.

Do you think eternal torture is just?

I wouldn't want eternal torture for my worst enemy. I wouldn't even wish this for someone like Stalin or Hitler.

There is no action that I could concieve of that would justify being burned in agony for eternity.

 

[gaara4158]

I like it. It just proves right there that christianity should be believed and followed, for infinite reward and for avoiding infinite loss, it's the only one that does that. Thanks for pointing it out. I will bookmark it. The conclusion of the wager does not follow as I have pointed out in at least three other threads, christians are more moral than atheists. Mainly because they at least are mindful of objective moral truth. If moral truth does not exist, as in the case of situational ethics, why love your enemies? If it does not pay you? Why be humble when you can gloat over your success. Only christianity in all of the world teaches a humble love of others. So if one wanted to hedge their bets and live morally, the most moral you can live is in a grace centered christianity, where you live morally but you don't gloat over your holiness as you would in all other moral systems. Because of Grace.

Your comprehensive and complete knowledge of all competing religions and moral philosophies is impressive. Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

The truth is, I know you feel strongly about your personal opinion, but until you actually demonstrate that there’s anything to it, that’s all it will ever be, your opinion. And it seems that you’re only able to buttress your opinions with more opinions, and when pressed you’re unable to defend any of them with facts or logic. Everyone sees this but you now, so unless you’ve got something else, consider this thread concluded with your inability to support any of your assertions.

 

[createdtoworship]

Do you think eternal torture is just?

I wouldn't want eternal torture for my worst enemy. I wouldn't even wish this for someone like Stalin or Hitler.

There is no action that I could concieve of that would justify being burned in agony for eternity.

I made a thread that answers your question, you can reply there.

Eternal Conscious Hell Fire is completely Justified

 

[createdtoworship]

and when pressed you’re unable to defend any of them with facts or logic. Everyone sees this but you now,

you act like facts can be proven? would you like to try to prove a single well known fact? I didn't think so. So basically this refutes this entire post.

 

[createdtoworship]

Your comprehensive and complete knowledge of all competing religions and moral philosophies is impressive. Truly you have a dizzying intellect.

The truth is, I know you feel strongly about your personal opinion, but until you actually demonstrate that there’s anything to it, that’s all it will ever be, your opinion. And it seems that you’re only able to buttress your opinions with more opinions, and when pressed you’re unable to defend any of them with facts or logic. Everyone sees this but you now, so unless you’ve got something else, consider this thread concluded with your inability to support any of your assertions.

I have studied dozens of religions, I know that there are thousands, but they are very similar to their parental main religions they separated from. I used to teach a class on how to defend christianity against world religions and christian cults. Christianity is very different from all of those, and I can prove that fact. All I need to do is quote the Bible, the main text for christianity. That is solid proof that christianity is very unique to all religions, and most religions are very similar to each other, and very different from christiainty. This proves that verse "narrow is the way that leads to life, and broad is the way that leads to destruction."

 

[gaara4158]

you act like facts can be proven? would you like to try to prove a single well known fact? I didn't think so. So basically this refutes this entire post.

I’d settle for a solid defense, but you can’t even provide that. Instead you fall back on the fundamental problem of skepticism, proving that you actually don’t have anything.

I have studied dozens of religions, I know that there are thousands, but they are very similar to their parental main religions they separated from. I used to teach a class on how to defend christianity against world religions and christian cults. Christianity is very different from all of those, and I can prove that fact. All I need to do is quote the Bible, the main text for christianity. That is solid proof that christianity is very unique to all religions, and most religions are very similar to each other, and very different from christiainty. This proves that verse "narrow is the way that leads to life, and broad is the way that leads to destruction."

You go from saying we can’t prove a single fact to a simple passage of the Bible being proven by your aesthetic preference of Christianity over others. Could you be any more illogical?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

So they are scared. I get it. If I was them I would be afraid of being exposed as false, I would say anything to get out of it. And that appears to be what is happening. Fear of being exposed has set in.

Non sequitur. Seeing futility in discussing anything with you doesn’t equate with being scared. It’s more the case that they don’t want to waste their time arguing with someone that either doesn’t understand the objections or doesn’t want to understand the objections.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Can you find 3?, I know of none.

I said “potential” hells. I don’t need to demonstrate them. That’s what “potential” means...

If I were you, I’d create a separate thread about Pascal’s Wager and how it proves Christianity. It would be quite helpful to me.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

read the OP sir, it's been proven over and over that God exists, empiracle solid proof. You would have to be foolish not to see it according to psalm 14:1

I’ve already said that I’ve read it. It’s not proof to any of the non theists here, and it’s not proof to the Christians I’ve shown it to (now 4).

But please, keep insisting it is.

Oh and since I’m not saying “there is no god”, that passage in Psalms doesn’t apply to me, now does it? I just say that I don’t believe in any god claim that’s been presented to me.

 

[gaara4158]

read the OP sir, it's been proven over and over that God exists, empiracle solid proof. You would have to be foolish not to see it according to psalm 14:1

New International Version
For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

New Living Translation
Only fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!

English Standard Version
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.

Berean Study Bible
For the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt; their acts are vile. There is no one who does good.

New American Standard Bible
For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

King James Bible
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Christian Standard Bible
The fool says in his heart, "There's no God." They are corrupt; they do vile deeds. There is no one who does good.

Contemporary English Version
Only a fool would say, "There is no God!" People like that are worthless; they are heartless and cruel and never do right.

Good News Translation
Fools say to themselves, "There is no God!" They are all corrupt, and they have done terrible things; there is no one who does what is right.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the choir director. Davidic. The fool says in his heart, "God does not exist." They are corrupt; they do vile deeds. There is no one who does good.

International Standard Version
Fools say to themselves, "There is no God." They are corrupt and commit evil deeds; not one of them practices what is good.

NET Bible
For the music director; by David. Fools say to themselves, "There is no God." They sin and commit evil deeds; none of them does what is right.

New Heart English Bible
[For the Chief Musician. By David.] The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They do abominable works. There is none who does good.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The evil one has said in his heart, “There is no God”. They are corrupted and they are defiled in their schemes and there is none who does good.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
[For the choir director; by David.] Godless fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They do disgusting things. There is no one who does good things.

JPS Tanakh 1917
For the Leader. [A Psalm] of David. The fool hath said in his heart: 'There is no God'; They have dealt corruptly, they have done abominably; There is none that doeth good.

New American Standard 1977
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

Jubilee Bible 2000
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is no one that does good.

King James 2000 Bible
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

American King James Version
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

American Standard Version
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works; There is none that doeth good.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
For the end, Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, and become abominable in their devices; there is none that does goodness, there is not even so much as one.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Unto the end, a psalm for David. The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God, They are corrupt, and are become abominable in their ways: there is none that doth good, no not one.

Darby Bible Translation
{To the chief Musician. [A Psalm] of David.} The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, they have done abominable works: there is none that doeth good.

English Revised Version
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works; there is none that doeth good.

Webster's Bible Translation
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

World English Bible
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They have done abominable works. There is none who does good.

Young's Literal Translation
To the Overseer. -- By David. A fool hath said in his heart, 'God is not;' They have done corruptly, They have done abominable actions, There is not a doer of good.

This is pure gold. "Empiracle" evidence and proof in good old Psalms. It just doesn't get better than this

 

[TBDude65]

Many people try to prove God's existence with irreducible complexity. But you don't even need to do that. All that is needed is this.... If you have a painting how do you prove there was a painter? It's inherent. If you see something made how do you prove there was a maker that made it? It's inherent. We don't even need to go into intelligence or creationism. I am simply talking about cause and effect. If you see something made, it had a maker, if you see something painted it had a painter. The universe is here. So it boils down to the fact that it made itself from nothing, or something made it. Period. The maker on the other hand would be supernatural, and prexisted time and space. So there was no beginning to the maker. Time is a physical property that requires mass to operate according to Einsteins theory of relativity. If a maker was supernatural (beyond the physical universe), then it would naturally follow that He was beyond time as well. Because of the fact He superseded the physical universe.

When it comes to the origin of life there are only two possibilities: creation or spontaneous generation. There is no third way. Spontaneous generation was disproved one hundred years ago, but that leads us to only one other conclusion, that of supernatural creation.

(here is an article showing a survey done in 2009 that 51% of scientists believe in a higher power: Scientists and Belief)

update:

(disclaimer: I don't believe we can prove most things. Most facts cannot be proven, most science cannot be proven etc. However I believe that some things can be proven. The universe had a maker. We all accept this, or the alternative is that the universe made itself, spontaneous generation was disproven 100 years ago, thus there is only one option. The universe was created. Now the thing that created the universe, must according to cause and affect have intelligence, and be rational. It must also contain any positive character traits, self sacrificial love etc. Things that are not explained by herd instinct. Herd instinct accounts for some morality, but not self sacrificial love. A wolf may gather food for the rest of the pack, but not at it's own demise, it will most likely eat first, then get it. Humans on the other hand have been known to sacrifice for others. This type of love has no natural origins. Thus the one who created the universe must have that type of love, in order to create it in it's creation. The only thing that resembles a loving creator that is intelligent and rational. Is the Christian God. This to me is proof.

If a kid were raised by magicians who always presented to them food via sleight of hand, and maintained these everyday illusions with respect to every facet of the child's imagination. For that child, food and other things can be manifested from thin air, and their parents are literal wizards.

Now...for that kid...when he goes to someone else's house and they turn on the tv, for that kid raised by (as far as he knew) literal wizards, would assume that it was an inherent explanation that the tv worked via magic.

So...is the kid correct? To him, it's inherent. Does it matter if it's the same argument and rationale by the time he becomes an adult? That this logic may be so in-grained (for some people) that what is "inherent" is akin to "magic."

 

[createdtoworship]

This is pure gold. "Empiracle" evidence and proof in good old Psalms. It just doesn't get better than this

Not proof in psalms but corroboration from a divine text that it is foolish not to see the evidence. It's God saying your stupid for not believing in Him basically. (not my words, by all means but slang for foolish, that is why I posted dozens and dozens of various translations, which all agree that it is indeed foolish not to accept the evidence provided in the OP.

 

[gaara4158]

Not proof in psalms but corroboration from a divine text that it is foolish not to see the evidence. It's God saying your stupid for not believing in Him basically. (not my words, by all means but slang for foolish, that is why I posted dozens and dozens of various translations, which all agree that it is indeed foolish not to accept the evidence provided in the OP.

Bless your heart.

 

[createdtoworship]

Bless your heart.

thank God for His word, don't thank me. I am just the messenger. Here let me post it again:

it's been proven over and over that God exists, empirical solid proof. You would have to be foolish not to see it according to psalm 14:1

New International Version
For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

New Living Translation
Only fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!

English Standard Version
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.

Berean Study Bible
For the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt; their acts are vile. There is no one who does good.

New American Standard Bible
For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

King James Bible
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Christian Standard Bible
The fool says in his heart, "There's no God." They are corrupt; they do vile deeds. There is no one who does good.

Contemporary English Version
Only a fool would say, "There is no God!" People like that are worthless; they are heartless and cruel and never do right.

Good News Translation
Fools say to themselves, "There is no God!" They are all corrupt, and they have done terrible things; there is no one who does what is right.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the choir director. Davidic. The fool says in his heart, "God does not exist." They are corrupt; they do vile deeds. There is no one who does good.

International Standard Version
Fools say to themselves, "There is no God." They are corrupt and commit evil deeds; not one of them practices what is good.

NET Bible
For the music director; by David. Fools say to themselves, "There is no God." They sin and commit evil deeds; none of them does what is right.

New Heart English Bible
[For the Chief Musician. By David.] The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They do abominable works. There is none who does good.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The evil one has said in his heart, “There is no God”. They are corrupted and they are defiled in their schemes and there is none who does good.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
[For the choir director; by David.] Godless fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They do disgusting things. There is no one who does good things.

JPS Tanakh 1917
For the Leader. [A Psalm] of David. The fool hath said in his heart: 'There is no God'; They have dealt corruptly, they have done abominably; There is none that doeth good.

New American Standard 1977
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

Jubilee Bible 2000
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is no one that does good.

King James 2000 Bible
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

American King James Version
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

American Standard Version
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works; There is none that doeth good.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
For the end, Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, and become abominable in their devices; there is none that does goodness, there is not even so much as one.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Unto the end, a psalm for David. The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God, They are corrupt, and are become abominable in their ways: there is none that doth good, no not one.

Darby Bible Translation
{To the chief Musician. [A Psalm] of David.} The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, they have done abominable works: there is none that doeth good.

English Revised Version
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works; there is none that doeth good.

Webster's Bible Translation
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

World English Bible
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They have done abominable works. There is none who does good.

Young's Literal Translation
To the Overseer. -- By David. A fool hath said in his heart, 'God is not;' They have done corruptly, They have done abominable actions, There is not a doer of good.

 

[gaara4158]

thank God for His word, don't thank me. I am just the messenger. Here let me post it again:

it's been proven over and over that God exists, empirical solid proof. You would have to be foolish not to see it according to psalm 14:1

New International Version
For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

New Living Translation
Only fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!

English Standard Version
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.

Berean Study Bible
For the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt; their acts are vile. There is no one who does good.

New American Standard Bible
For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

King James Bible
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Christian Standard Bible
The fool says in his heart, "There's no God." They are corrupt; they do vile deeds. There is no one who does good.

Contemporary English Version
Only a fool would say, "There is no God!" People like that are worthless; they are heartless and cruel and never do right.

Good News Translation
Fools say to themselves, "There is no God!" They are all corrupt, and they have done terrible things; there is no one who does what is right.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the choir director. Davidic. The fool says in his heart, "God does not exist." They are corrupt; they do vile deeds. There is no one who does good.

International Standard Version
Fools say to themselves, "There is no God." They are corrupt and commit evil deeds; not one of them practices what is good.

NET Bible
For the music director; by David. Fools say to themselves, "There is no God." They sin and commit evil deeds; none of them does what is right.

New Heart English Bible
[For the Chief Musician. By David.] The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They do abominable works. There is none who does good.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The evil one has said in his heart, “There is no God”. They are corrupted and they are defiled in their schemes and there is none who does good.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
[For the choir director; by David.] Godless fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They do disgusting things. There is no one who does good things.

JPS Tanakh 1917
For the Leader. [A Psalm] of David. The fool hath said in his heart: 'There is no God'; They have dealt corruptly, they have done abominably; There is none that doeth good.

New American Standard 1977
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

Jubilee Bible 2000
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is no one that does good.

King James 2000 Bible
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

American King James Version
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

American Standard Version
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works; There is none that doeth good.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
For the end, Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, and become abominable in their devices; there is none that does goodness, there is not even so much as one.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Unto the end, a psalm for David. The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God, They are corrupt, and are become abominable in their ways: there is none that doth good, no not one.

Darby Bible Translation
{To the chief Musician. [A Psalm] of David.} The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, they have done abominable works: there is none that doeth good.

English Revised Version
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works; there is none that doeth good.

Webster's Bible Translation
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

World English Bible
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They have done abominable works. There is none who does good.

Young's Literal Translation
To the Overseer. -- By David. A fool hath said in his heart, 'God is not;' They have done corruptly, They have done abominable actions, There is not a doer of good.

How do you know Psalm 14:1 is true?

 

[createdtoworship]

How do you know Psalm 14:1 is true?

well I have seen it first hand that it is true, dealing with yall. lol.

Sorry you set yourself up for that one.

 

[gaara4158]

well I have seen it first hand that it is true, dealing with yall. lol.

Sorry you set yourself up for that one.

Us? Which one of us has said “there is no God?”

 

[createdtoworship]

Us? Which one of us has said “there is no God?”

you have said numerous times that there is not enough evidence to believe in God. So in your mind you believe there is no God. You don't have to say the words, we all know what you believe.

God knows more importantly, and He says it's dumb.
by the way I think the little squiggles and wiggles you guys do to get out of debate, is totally hilarious. It's totally obvious that you are on the losing side.
but on another note, I just saw this video, and I wanted to post it.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Us? Which one of us has said “there is no God?”

He doesn’t understand that there’s a difference between a disbelief in something and believing something isn’t true.

It’s something you learn in your first logic class.

 

[gaara4158]

you have said numerous times that there is not enough evidence to believe in God. So in your mind you believe there is no God. You don't have to say the words, we all know what you believe.

God knows more importantly, and He says it's dumb.
by the way I think the little squiggles and wiggles you guys do to get out of debate, is totally hilarious. It's totally obvious that you are on the losing side.
but on another note, I just saw this video, and I wanted to post it.

Nope, not the same thing. Disbelieving a positive claim is not the same as believing a negative claim. This is not controversial. I take the skeptical position, which is to withhold belief from both the positive and the negative claim until it can be demonstrated that either is true.

It’s rather alarming that as a self-branded logical debater you don’t understand this. But as long as you don’t, you’re going to keep failing.