Argument for God's existence.

[createdtoworship]

Well, if you believe that, you’re welcome to be wrong. Your evidence is weak, and your only defense of it is to demand I categorically discredit the entire class of evidence you provided. When I do that, you deliberately mischaracterize the science behind it. If you’re content to accept that 200 people’s account of hellish NDE’s is enough to prove that Hell exists, I would suggest you ask yourself why you don’t accept *all* claims with just 200 or so “corroborators.” Your argument for the supernatural was an embarrassing travesty not unlike the one you’re making here, so I don’t know why you think that can help you.

Look into the actual scholarly articles on Google investigating the nature of NDEs, eyewitness testimony, and scientific methodology. Then come back and tell me if you still think this doctor’s case stands up to scrutiny.

First you say it was uncorroborated, I show it's corroborated. Now it's still not enough. I see how you work. I know that you don't want to believe in Hell because maybe it's the life style choices you have made and you don't want to worry about that. But if I were you, I would worry. Pascals wager, (if I remember it correctly), basically deals with this: If God exists, and Hell exists and I am going there, I risk going to hell if I don't believe in the 1 requirement to be saved. (Repentance and faith in Jesus). If I am wrong, I go to hell, if I am correct.....I just die and nothing happens. But as I proved in posts past, our souls are eternal. (if you don't have mass, time does not apply to you, as proven by Einsteins theory of relativity). Souls don't have mass, therefore when we die, they live on. Your soul I believe will be reunited with your body, both will be resurrected and glorified so that the flesh is eternal as well. Then you will be cast into the lake of fire. If I am correct you burn forever in anguish. If you are correct, you die and live on endlessly somewhere (you don't know much about it). So my chances are mathematically and logically hedging my bets against burning in hell for eternity, and that was what pascals wager was about.

"Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas he stands to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (eternity in Hell).[2]"

Pascal's wager - Wikipedia

 

[gaara4158]

First you say it was uncorroborated, I show it's corroborated. Now it's still not enough. I see how you work.

I'm adopting your layman's terminology to save time, but if you're going to throw it back at me as a concession we can dissect your posts sentence by sentence to enumerate every single wrong statement you've made. I prefer a faster pace.

I know that you don't want to believe in Hell because maybe it's the life style choices you have made and you don't want to worry about that. But if I were you, I would worry.

Of course I don't want Hell to exist, that would be horrifying even if I weren't destined to go. To think there's currently billions of souls endlessly being tortured... that's the ultimate evil. If it existed, I would want to know. I want to believe what's true. If it's true that Hell exists, I'd want to know how to avoid it. It would be idiotic to just pretend it doesn't exist. So your hypothesis about my motivation doesn't really make sense.

Pascals wager, (if I remember it correctly), basically deals with this: If God exists, and Hell exists and I am going there, I risk going to hell if I don't believe in the 1 requirement to be saved. (Repentance and faith in Jesus). If I am wrong, I go to hell, if I am correct.....I just die and nothing happens.

Not exactly. Pascal's Wager is aimed at those who "are so made that they cannot believe" in God, and he encourages them to adopt all the behaviors associated with belief until hopefully they can settle into sincere belief in order to avoid Hell and get to Heaven. There are, of course, several problems with this: 1) It assumes God rewards belief that is garnered just to avoid punishment and gain reward, 2) It assumes you have the right god, and you're not actually earning your spot in some other religion's Hell by believing in a false god, 3) It assumes belief is a choice at all, as though we could force ourselves to believe the sky isn't blue or fire isn't hot. There are more objections in the link you yourself posted, which you'll immediately dismiss on the grounds that they're from Wikipedia, but you get the idea. Not many philosophers take Pascal's wager seriously.

But as I proved in posts past, our souls are eternal. (if you don't have mass, time does not apply to you, as proven by Einsteins theory of relativity). Souls don't have mass, therefore when we die, they live on. Your soul I believe will be reunited with your body, both will be resurrected and glorified so that the flesh is eternal as well. Then you will be cast into the lake of fire.

You never proved anything about the soul, much less its existence. No one has demonstrated the existence of a soul. These are pure, unsupported assertions you're making. I do admire your creativity in applying relativistic physics to a soul to demonstrate that time does not affect souls, but there's no need for that. You left the realm of science as soon as you proposed the existence of souls in the first place, so you can just say anything you want about them.

If I am correct you burn forever in anguish. If you are correct, you die and live on endlessly somewhere (you don't know much about it). So my chances are mathematically and logically hedging my bets against burning in hell for eternity, and that was what pascals wager was about.

"Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas he stands to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (eternity in Hell).[2]"

Pascal's wager - Wikipedia

This could be said about any indemonstrable threat, and yet I doubt you'd find it compelling. If you don't touch your toes every day at noon, the Earth will be destroyed by aliens. Will you remember to touch your toes tomorrow? Probably not. And that's because no actual threat has been demonstrated. There's no reason to believe aliens are coming for us, and there's no reason to believe in Hell, whatever manipulative tactics you can come up with notwithstanding.

But if such wagers actually do sway you, you should check out the Atheist's Wager. Atheist's Wager - Wikipedia

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I would love to speak to him, have him message me, with clips of where I "punched people in the face." Most likely he either wont, or he does not want to invest much time into it. If I really believed what he said I would have went in the thread, and or messaged myself rebuking him for lack of love. But if I didn't care much about it I would reply to you and do nothing about it. That appears to be what happened. But using the law is not popular in christianity. Neither is young earth creationism, or fundamentalism. All of this does have a biblical precedence. So I listen to people, I do. But I listen to the Bible more. The methods I have used many times are directly from the word. So if you want, let him message me or point out his concern here. Most will not. I welcome all criticism. I have absolutely nothing to hide before God or man. All of my methods are beyond reproach. So again, by all means invite them to reply or again, have them message me. I talk to christians old and new every day. Non christians too. I care about them all. regarding my views, if you know someone is driving their car off a cliff, you either help them steer to safety, or you provide a parachute. You don't watch them perish. You are responsibLe for them perishing, so you take partial responsibility if you have a parachute and you don't provide it. But christians can disagreen with fundamentalism.. most evangelicals are staunch republican for example. If Jesus was president he would let in all the immigrants but then force them to get a job if they wanted food. That puts him at odds with democrat and republican. I am more inline with Ron paul, but I really don't know much about him. But the point is that christianity is so vast that you have people from all walks of life represented by christianity. There are christians that believe in social justice (democrats) as in the christian black community. They can be on fire christians, then you have the christian right novement. They can be on fire christians. But when they talk politics. The devil comes out and they cant unite over squat. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I just think the true Jesus following puts you at odds with most of man's systems.

I’ll ask my friends, but since their objections to your arguments are the same objections non theists are presenting to you - the ones you’re dismissing out of hand - I’m wondering what the point would be.

Just be aware that there are Christians that find your arguments faulty, and think you’re doing more harm than good.

What you do with that is up to you. But I already have an inkling as to what that will be...

 

[ToddNotTodd]

But as I proved in posts past...

Didn’t you say in a previous post that people couldn’t “prove” anything?

Have you ever heard the phrase “talking out of both sides of your mouth”

So my chances are mathematically and logically hedging my bets against burning in hell for eternity, and that was what pascals wager was about.

There’s an almost infinite number of potential deities that will send you to their version of hell if you remain a Christian.

Talk to me about hedging your bets again...

 

[createdtoworship]

I'm adopting your layman's terminology to save time, but if you're going to throw it back at me as a concession we can dissect your posts sentence by sentence to enumerate every single wrong statement you've made. I prefer a faster pace.

Of course I don't want Hell to exist, that would be horrifying even if I weren't destined to go. To think there's currently billions of souls endlessly being tortured... that's the ultimate evil. If it existed, I would want to know. I want to believe what's true. If it's true that Hell exists, I'd want to know how to avoid it. It would be idiotic to just pretend it doesn't exist. So your hypothesis about my motivation doesn't really make sense.

Not exactly. Pascal's Wager is aimed at those who "are so made that they cannot believe" in God, and he encourages them to adopt all the behaviors associated with belief until hopefully they can settle into sincere belief in order to avoid Hell and get to Heaven. There are, of course, several problems with this: 1) It assumes God rewards belief that is garnered just to avoid punishment and gain reward, 2) It assumes you have the right god, and you're not actually earning your spot in some other religion's Hell by believing in a false god, 3) It assumes belief is a choice at all, as though we could force ourselves to believe the sky isn't blue or fire isn't hot. There are more objections in the link you yourself posted, which you'll immediately dismiss on the grounds that they're from Wikipedia, but you get the idea. Not many philosophers take Pascal's wager seriously.

You never proved anything about the soul, much less its existence. No one has demonstrated the existence of a soul. These are pure, unsupported assertions you're making. I do admire your creativity in applying relativistic physics to a soul to demonstrate that time does not affect souls, but there's no need for that. You left the realm of science as soon as you proposed the existence of souls in the first place, so you can just say anything you want about them.

This could be said about any indemonstrable threat, and yet I doubt you'd find it compelling. If you don't touch your toes every day at noon, the Earth will be destroyed by aliens. Will you remember to touch your toes tomorrow? Probably not. And that's because no actual threat has been demonstrated. There's no reason to believe aliens are coming for us, and there's no reason to believe in Hell, whatever manipulative tactics you can come up with notwithstanding.

But if such wagers actually do sway you, you should check out the Atheist's Wager. Atheist's Wager - Wikipedia

maybe you should re read the quote I posted about pascals wager, print it on a 11 by 17 poster board, then print out the atheist wager on a different one, and hang them in your room. Meditate on which of the two makes logical sense to follow.

 

[createdtoworship]

Didn’t you say in a previous post that people couldn’t “prove” anything?

Have you ever heard the phrase “talking out of both sides of your mouth”


There’s an almost infinite number of potential deities that will send you to their version of hell if you remain a Christian.

Talk to me about hedging your bets again...

no I said people can't prove basic facts. But there are some things you can prove. I am stepping back on it a bit. I actually do believe you can prove God's existence. And I do so in this thread. Read the OP

 

[createdtoworship]

Didn’t you say in a previous post that people couldn’t “prove” anything?

Have you ever heard the phrase “talking out of both sides of your mouth”


There’s an almost infinite number of potential deities that will send you to their version of hell if you remain a Christian.

Talk to me about hedging your bets again...

as far as hells are concerned, eternal burning hell I believe takes the cake. I would rather sit on a bed of nails. Or get cut up, or hanged repeatedly. Most religion's hells are a cake walk compared to burning every cell in your body in an unending way. See my other post how burning a skin cell hurts more than cutting one. Besides most religions fail philosophically. Most religions don't reveal a Holy God. And most religions don't reveal the depravity of man, and most religions don't reveal that man is bound for Hell naturally. Most religions are by good works, but if man is depraved and imperfect, how can he attain a perfection? It's not possible philosophically. That is why most if not all religions fail just on those few points. Christianity passes all of those tests with flying colors.

 

[gaara4158]

maybe you should re read the quote I posted about pascals wager, print it on a 11 by 17 poster board, then print out the atheist wager on a different one, and hang them in your room. Meditate on which of the two makes logical sense to follow.

No need for all that, the atheist’s wager is the obvious winner.

 

[createdtoworship]

No need for all that, the atheist’s wager is the obvious winner.

well the fact that you are not willing to post them and compare them, is telling.

one: hedging your bets for eternal bliss, while avoiding eternal torture being burned alive forever

two: doesn't really matter because of number one above.

eternal hell either exists or it does not, 50/50 chance.

I am betting on the odds and logic and the math behind it.

 

[createdtoworship]

I’ll ask my friends, but since their objections to your arguments are the same objections non theists are presenting to you - the ones you’re dismissing out of hand - I’m wondering what the point would be.

Just be aware that there are Christians that find your arguments faulty, and think you’re doing more harm than good.

What you do with that is up to you. But I already have an inkling as to what that will be...

thanks for the concern. But if they are not willing to debate it, then they either don't believe it, or don't care. Pick your choice.

I am not going to defend my position, God defends his position very well, and Jesus talked about hell twice as much as he talked about heaven. he specifically stated that wicked people will go to hell, and a typical moral person sins 30,000 times in a typical life time, at only one sin a day (lust after a seeing a woman), (white lies) (stealing a paper clip), those are all sins. so on judgement day, the wicked will be guilty, and we are all wicked. It's just that I have accepted the free gift of eternal life, and you have not. Pascals wager is....will you be foolish and hedge your bets that hell doesnt' exist, and potentially send your soul to burn forever? Or will you make the wise choice and double check?

 

[cvanwey]

be foolish and hedge your bets that hell doesnt' exist, and potentially send your soul to burn forever? Or will you make the wise choice and double check?

Don't you think a smart and loving God would see right through such? I would assume your believed God is smart enough to see right through someone stating they 'believe', if they weren't quite sure, just to hedge their bets. But is that genuine? Here's a thought...

Aside from almost everything you've asserted in this thread... Even if much was true, all doubters, non-believers, skeptics, atheists, etc., would all not be sure WHICH GOD was the true God anyways. Heck, even apologists here don't agree on much of practically any of the things you are saying, I would bet... And as you know, there are also other books floating around, which also claim the very same thing as yours. You know, that their god(s) is/are the creator, etc....

Since God wants a personal relationship with His creation, wouldn't you think He would at least reach out in a way, to all whom are either worshiping other god(s), or no god(s), to at least let them know that He does truly exist (in a way they would all at least understand of His existence)?

People could still make a fare and educated decision, as to whether or not to follow this now realized God, couldn't they? But instead, at least for my sake, I must instead content with the 'divine hiddenness' argument, to a degree. And blank assertions to boot.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

no I said people can't prove basic facts. But there are some things you can prove. I am stepping back on it a bit.

Stepping back... backpedaling... I get you.

You can’t “prove” anything, other than “something exists”.

I actually do believe you can prove God's existence. And I do so in this thread. Read the OP

I have. You realize that no non theist believes you’ve done this, right? Along with the Christians I’ve shown this thread to.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

as far as hells are concerned, eternal burning hell I believe takes the cake. I would rather sit on a bed of nails. Or get cut up, or hanged repeatedly. Most religion's hells are a cake walk compared to burning every cell in your body in an unending way. See my other post how burning a skin cell hurts more than cutting one. Besides most religions fail philosophically. Most religions don't reveal a Holy God. And most religions don't reveal the depravity of man, and most religions don't reveal that man is bound for Hell naturally. Most religions are by good works, but if man is depraved and imperfect, how can he attain a perfection? It's not possible philosophically. That is why most if not all religions fail just on those few points. Christianity passes all of those tests with flying colors.

There’s an almost infinite number of potential hells where the torture is at least equal to the Christian hell.

So talk to me about odds again...

 

[ToddNotTodd]

thanks for the concern. But if they are not willing to debate it, then they either don't believe it, or don't care. Pick your choice.

False dichotomy. My Christian friends both said that that arguing with you would be foolish, since you either don’t seem to understand the objections, or aren’t trying to understand them.

Pascals wager is....will you be foolish and hedge your bets that hell doesnt' exist, and potentially send your soul to burn forever? Or will you make the wise choice and double check?

As it’s been shown, you don’t seem to understand anything about Pascal’s Wager.

 

[createdtoworship]

Don't you think a smart and loving God would see right through such? I would assume your believed God is smart enough to see right through someone stating they 'believe', if they weren't quite sure, just to hedge their bets. But is that genuine? Here's a thought...

Aside from almost everything you've asserted in this thread... Even if much was true, all doubters, non-believers, skeptics, atheists, etc., would all not be sure WHICH GOD was the true God anyways. Heck, even apologists here don't agree on much of practically any of the things you are saying, I would bet... And as you know, there are also other books floating around, which also claim the very same thing as yours. You know, that their god(s) is/are the creator, etc....

Since God wants a personal relationship with His creation, wouldn't you think He would at least reach out in a way, to all whom are either worshiping other god(s), or no god(s), to at least let them know that He does truly exist (in a way they would all at least understand of His existence)?

People could still make a fare and educated decision, as to whether or not to follow this now realized God, couldn't they? But instead, at least for my sake, I must instead content with the 'divine hiddenness' argument, to a degree. And blank assertions to boot.

The doctrine of salvic repentance keeps the fakers from being sAved. But the initial act of being saved is always a selfish endevor. Later on th christian grows and slowly becomes more like Christ. But almost 100% pray the sinners prayer out of selfishness. Very few say, I want to be sAved because I want to glorify God. That almost never happens, yet as they mature in their relationship the love for God grows and consumes them. Thus God's investment into their life matures.

 

[createdtoworship]

False dichotomy. My Christian friends both said that that arguing with you would be foolish, since you either don’t seem to understand the objections, or aren’t trying to understand them.



As it’s been shown, you don’t seem to understand anything about Pascal’s Wager.

So they are scared. I get it. If I was them I would be afraid of being exposed as false, I would say anything to get out of it. And that appears to be what is happening. Fear of being exposed has set in.

 

[createdtoworship]

There’s an almost infinite number of potential hells where the torture is at least equal to the Christian hell.

So talk to me about odds again...

Can you find 3?, I know of none.

 

[createdtoworship]

Stepping back... backpedaling... I get you.

You can’t “prove” anything, other than “something exists”.



I have. You realize that no non theist believes you’ve done this, right? Along with the Christians I’ve shown this thread to.

read the OP sir, it's been proven over and over that God exists, empiracle solid proof. You would have to be foolish not to see it according to psalm 14:1

New International Version
For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

New Living Translation
Only fools say in their hearts, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their actions are evil; not one of them does good!

English Standard Version
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.

Berean Study Bible
For the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt; their acts are vile. There is no one who does good.

New American Standard Bible
For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

King James Bible
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Christian Standard Bible
The fool says in his heart, "There's no God." They are corrupt; they do vile deeds. There is no one who does good.

Contemporary English Version
Only a fool would say, "There is no God!" People like that are worthless; they are heartless and cruel and never do right.

Good News Translation
Fools say to themselves, "There is no God!" They are all corrupt, and they have done terrible things; there is no one who does what is right.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the choir director. Davidic. The fool says in his heart, "God does not exist." They are corrupt; they do vile deeds. There is no one who does good.

International Standard Version
Fools say to themselves, "There is no God." They are corrupt and commit evil deeds; not one of them practices what is good.

NET Bible
For the music director; by David. Fools say to themselves, "There is no God." They sin and commit evil deeds; none of them does what is right.

New Heart English Bible
[For the Chief Musician. By David.] The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They do abominable works. There is none who does good.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The evil one has said in his heart, “There is no God”. They are corrupted and they are defiled in their schemes and there is none who does good.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
[For the choir director; by David.] Godless fools say in their hearts, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They do disgusting things. There is no one who does good things.

JPS Tanakh 1917
For the Leader. [A Psalm] of David. The fool hath said in his heart: 'There is no God'; They have dealt corruptly, they have done abominably; There is none that doeth good.

New American Standard 1977
The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

Jubilee Bible 2000
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is no one that does good.

King James 2000 Bible
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

American King James Version
The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

American Standard Version
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works; There is none that doeth good.

Brenton Septuagint Translation
For the end, Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, and become abominable in their devices; there is none that does goodness, there is not even so much as one.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Unto the end, a psalm for David. The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God, They are corrupt, and are become abominable in their ways: there is none that doth good, no not one.

Darby Bible Translation
{To the chief Musician. [A Psalm] of David.} The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, they have done abominable works: there is none that doeth good.

English Revised Version
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works; there is none that doeth good.

Webster's Bible Translation
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

World English Bible
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They have done abominable works. There is none who does good.

Young's Literal Translation
To the Overseer. -- By David. A fool hath said in his heart, 'God is not;' They have done corruptly, They have done abominable actions, There is not a doer of good.

 

[gaara4158]

well the fact that you are not willing to post them and compare them, is telling.

one: hedging your bets for eternal bliss, while avoiding eternal torture being burned alive forever

two: doesn't really matter because of number one above.

eternal hell either exists or it does not, 50/50 chance.

I am betting on the odds and logic and the math behind it.

Ah, so you didn’t click. The atheist’s wager calculates even odds for infinite gain and infinite loss no matter the position you take. You should have clicked, but you didn’t, which is telling.

 

[createdtoworship]

Ah, so you didn’t click. The atheist’s wager calculates even odds for infinite gain and infinite loss no matter the position you take. You should have clicked, but you didn’t, which is telling.

I like it. It just proves right there that christianity should be believed and followed, for infinite reward and for avoiding infinite loss, it's the only one that does that. Thanks for pointing it out. I will bookmark it. The conclusion of the wager does not follow as I have pointed out in at least three other threads, christians are more moral than atheists. Mainly because they at least are mindful of objective moral truth. If moral truth does not exist, as in the case of situational ethics, why love your enemies? If it does not pay you? Why be humble when you can gloat over your success. Only christianity in all of the world teaches a humble love of others. So if one wanted to hedge their bets and live morally, the most moral you can live is in a grace centered christianity, where you live morally but you don't gloat over your holiness as you would in all other moral systems. Because of Grace.