Arguing with scripture

[probinson]

Have you ever heard someone say (or maybe you've said it yourself), "You're not arguing with me. You're arguing with scripture." I used to say foolish things like that all the time. It sounds great. It sounds Spiritual. It sounds final. It's the trump card of trump cards to "win" any debate.

Almost always when I hear someone arguing dogmatically from the standpoint that they understand scripture "in context®" better than someone else, it's a huge red flag for me.

The truth is, we all see through a glass dimly (that's scriptural, even though I didn't provide a reference ). None of us has a complete and full understanding of scripture and therefore even if we reference a boat load of scripture for our beliefs, we are all giving our opinion of what that scripture says. We might be right. We might be wrong. But it's inevitable that in our imperfect human understanding, we are going to taint what we read with our preconceived ideas, biases, past experiences and more. All someone who posts copious amounts of scripture is really proving is that they know how to use one of the many online Bible resources to do a keyword search.

Obviously we all hold our beliefs sincerely, and obviously we all believe that what we believe is correct (or else we wouldn't believe it ), but you should be wary of people who are so enamored with their own understanding of scripture that they can't even listen to another viewpoint without pointing out their superior, "in context®" understanding of scripture.

God dealt with me about this very thing a few years back. That is why you will never hear me claim that you're not arguing with me when I'm referencing scripture. If you ever do find yourself arguing with me for any reason , than you most certainly are arguing with me, with my ideas, with my opinions, with my interpretations. It's also why I preface much of what I say with "I believe..." That is an accurate description of what I'm saying when I reference scripture. "I believe that scripture says..." acknowledges that while I believe something from scripture sincerely, it is still my belief of what that scripture says.

So don't be intimidated by the people who say they want to hear only scripture and not your thoughts or opinions. The truth is, every one of us giving our thoughts and opinions even when we post scripture. I've found that the most productive discussions are had when both parties understand this viewpoint. It introduces a humility into the discussion that simply does not exist otherwise.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Very good point and hits home a little bit. I know I can get carried away at times, I try not too. My ADD flaring up

 

[Scottmcc1]

Have you ever heard someone say (or maybe you've said it yourself), "You're not arguing with me. You're arguing with scripture." I used to say foolish things like that all the time. It sounds great. It sounds Spiritual. It sounds final. It's the trump card of trump cards to "win" any debate.

Almost always when I hear someone arguing dogmatically from the standpoint that they understand scripture "in context®" better than someone else, it's a huge red flag for me.

The truth is, we all see through a glass dimly (that's scriptural, even though I didn't provide a reference ). None of us has a complete and full understanding of scripture and therefore even if we reference a boat load of scripture for our beliefs, we are all giving our opinion of what that scripture says. We might be right. We might be wrong. But it's inevitable that in our imperfect human understanding, we are going to taint what we read with our preconceived ideas, biases, past experiences and more. All someone who posts copious amounts of scripture is really proving is that they know how to use one of the many online Bible resources to do a keyword search.

Obviously we all hold our beliefs sincerely, and obviously we all believe that what we believe is correct (or else we wouldn't believe it ), but you should be wary of people who are so enamored with their own understanding of scripture that they can't even listen to another viewpoint without pointing out their superior, "in context®" understanding of scripture.

God dealt with me about this very thing a few years back. That is why you will never hear me claim that you're not arguing with me when I'm referencing scripture. If you ever do find yourself arguing with me for any reason , than you most certainly are arguing with me, with my ideas, with my opinions, with my interpretations. It's also why I preface much of what I say with "I believe..." That is an accurate description of what I'm saying when I reference scripture. "I believe that scripture says..." acknowledges that while I believe something from scripture sincerely, it is still my belief of what that scripture says.

So don't be intimidated by the people who say they want to hear only scripture and not your thoughts or opinions. The truth is, every one of us giving our thoughts and opinions even when we post scripture. I've found that the most productive discussions are had when both parties understand this viewpoint. It introduces a humility into the discussion that simply does not exist otherwise.

It is important to know how the person you are talking with interprets Scripture. I was talking with one person and he saw everything I shared from Scripture as relative and not literal. When I came to this realization, I just sat back and looked at him and thought, "there is no basis for a conversation if this is the way he looks at Scripture."

If a person takes the view that Scripture could mean anything, then there is not basis for a discussion. Words have meaning and God wrote to us to show us the way of life. We should not reject His words as meaningful.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have found this forum extremely helpful when I have had a new "revelation" and have been able to bounce it around different people. I love a lively discussion because I learn from it. It's like being a witness in Court and once the prosecutor has finished asking his question, the defending lawyer gets up to cross-examine. His job is to test my story to the limit and to pick holes in it. It is good when people disagree with me because it makes me think and to work at supporting or justifying my view from Scripture.

I don't have much time for those on the forum who think they are right all the time and tend to get personal, criticise and abuse someone who disagrees with them. I call that playing the person and not the ball. Since 2005 when I joined this forum we have gone through times when some have been just plain ornery and nasty and the Mod has had to jump in and sort them out. People behaving like that are really out of order, and I really wonder whether they are actually saved when they would treat brothers and sisters in Christ like that.

If you get 10 economists in one room, you will get 10 different opinions about the economic state of the nation. We all see the things of God from different perspectives because we all have different backgrounds, experiences, and are on different journeys. Of course, there are non-negotiable parts of the Scripture, but most of our discussions are around getting to know the Scripture better and to sort out what parts of the Scripture are written FOR us and which are written TO us.

Also, there are ones who are on the forum because they enjoy the fellowship of others. There are some who are house-bound because of disability and this forum may be the only way they can have fellowship with their brothers and sisters in Christ. I think we should understand that and not pick them to pieces just because they might write stuff that we don't agree with.

John said something about a person not knowing God if he doesn't love, because God is love. Love doesn't always have to agree with another, but love is seen on how we go about our disagreements and discussions.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Arguing with scripture Have you ever heard someone say (or maybe you've said it yourself), "You're not arguing with me. You're arguing with scripture." I used to say foolish things like that all the time. It sounds great. It sounds Spiritual. It sounds final. It's the trump card of trump cards to "win" any debate.

Almost always when I hear someone arguing dogmatically from the standpoint that they understand scripture "in context®" better than someone else, it's a huge red flag for me.

The truth is, we all see through a glass dimly (that's scriptural, even though I didn't provide a reference ). None of us has a complete and full understanding of scripture and therefore even if we reference a boat load of scripture for our beliefs, we are all giving our opinion of what that scripture says. We might be right. We might be wrong. But it's inevitable that in our imperfect human understanding, we are going to taint what we read with our preconceived ideas, biases, past experiences and more. All someone who posts copious amounts of scripture is really proving is that they know how to use one of the many online Bible resources to do a keyword search.

Obviously we all hold our beliefs sincerely, and obviously we all believe that what we believe is correct (or else we wouldn't believe it ), but you should be wary of people who are so enamored with their own understanding of scripture that they can't even listen to another viewpoint without pointing out their superior, "in context®" understanding of scripture.

God dealt with me about this very thing a few years back. That is why you will never hear me claim that you're not arguing with me when I'm referencing scripture. If you ever do find yourself arguing with me for any reason , than you most certainly are arguing with me, with my ideas, with my opinions, with my interpretations. It's also why I preface much of what I say with "I believe..." That is an accurate description of what I'm saying when I reference scripture. "I believe that scripture says..." acknowledges that while I believe something from scripture sincerely, it is still my belief of what that scripture says.

So don't be intimidated by the people who say they want to hear only scripture and not your thoughts or opinions. The truth is, every one of us giving our thoughts and opinions even when we post scripture. I've found that the most productive discussions are had when both parties understand this viewpoint. It introduces a humility into the discussion that simply does not exist otherwise.

Good point Pete. Although, if I'm going to be convinced to change my stance on something people need to give more than a lifted out of context scripture to prove it to me. There are times when I'm willing to say "I may be wrong" and then there are times when I don't believe I am wrong and I'm not going to say I may be if I don't believe I am.

 

[jiminpa]

Sorry Pete but you are wrong and I have scripture to prove it. There are things that are pretty clear though. The complete lack of scriptural support for cessation is my favorite.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Sorry Pete but you are wrong and I have scripture to prove it. There are things that are pretty clear though. The complete lack of scriptural support for cessation is my favorite.

Yup, yet there are some here that are semi cessasionist at best and full blown cessasionists at worst....So sad to tell yourself you believe in the power of God and deny it by doctrine and practice.

To the OP, Luke 24:45 always fascinated me. Even after walking with Jesus for 3.5 years they didn't understand the scriptures. That is what I need. Jesus open my understanding concerning the scriptures!

 

[rdclmn72]

Arguing to prove a point is an exercise in parrotology, spouting scripture doesn't help when people are no longer listening.
We're not in it to win, only to share.

Arguing with scripture happens when we find something that makes us think as the challenge will always be that of knowing what to do about what the Spirit is trying to teach us, as in Psalm 32.
The Spirit then tells to handle it as best we can, as no one can teach as God can.

 

[Scottmcc1]

There are other aspects to Scripture. It is not what we know but what we can testify to that is important. To know what the Bible says and not do anything about it is deception. James 1:22 "But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves."

And to know the Bible without love just brings a person to arrogance. 1 Corinthians 8:1 "Now concerning things sacrificed to idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge makes arrogant, but love edifies."

So some could argue from their deception and arrogance. With that approach, of course, nothing is accomplished.

 

[Svt4Him]

Although I do understand this, and agree that there are times where it feels like someone has taken the position they are speaking from God's mouth to your ear, so to argue with them is to argue with God, there is truth that is truth. For instance if I say Jesus isn't the only way to heaven, you'd probably counter that the Bible is pretty clear He is, or would you say there may be other ways?

Examine truth, look at it from both sides, see what others have to say. So often we don't question our own beliefs. But one can find truth, even if it is a glimpse.

Have you ever heard someone say (or maybe you've said it yourself), "You're not arguing with me. You're arguing with scripture." I used to say foolish things like that all the time. It sounds great. It sounds Spiritual. It sounds final. It's the trump card of trump cards to "win" any debate.

Almost always when I hear someone arguing dogmatically from the standpoint that they understand scripture "in context®" better than someone else, it's a huge red flag for me.

The truth is, we all see through a glass dimly (that's scriptural, even though I didn't provide a reference ). None of us has a complete and full understanding of scripture and therefore even if we reference a boat load of scripture for our beliefs, we are all giving our opinion of what that scripture says. We might be right. We might be wrong. But it's inevitable that in our imperfect human understanding, we are going to taint what we read with our preconceived ideas, biases, past experiences and more. All someone who posts copious amounts of scripture is really proving is that they know how to use one of the many online Bible resources to do a keyword search.

Obviously we all hold our beliefs sincerely, and obviously we all believe that what we believe is correct (or else we wouldn't believe it ), but you should be wary of people who are so enamored with their own understanding of scripture that they can't even listen to another viewpoint without pointing out their superior, "in context®" understanding of scripture.

God dealt with me about this very thing a few years back. That is why you will never hear me claim that you're not arguing with me when I'm referencing scripture. If you ever do find yourself arguing with me for any reason , than you most certainly are arguing with me, with my ideas, with my opinions, with my interpretations. It's also why I preface much of what I say with "I believe..." That is an accurate description of what I'm saying when I reference scripture. "I believe that scripture says..." acknowledges that while I believe something from scripture sincerely, it is still my belief of what that scripture says.

So don't be intimidated by the people who say they want to hear only scripture and not your thoughts or opinions. The truth is, every one of us giving our thoughts and opinions even when we post scripture. I've found that the most productive discussions are had when both parties understand this viewpoint. It introduces a humility into the discussion that simply does not exist otherwise.

 

[probinson]

Although I do understand this, and agree that there are times where it feels like someone has taken the position they are speaking from God's mouth to your ear, so to argue with them is to argue with God, there is truth that is truth. For instance if I say Jesus isn't the only way to heaven, you'd probably counter that the Bible is pretty clear He is, or would you say there may be other ways?

Examine truth, look at it from both sides, see what others have to say. So often we don't question our own beliefs. But one can find truth, even if it is a glimpse.

Of course there are exceptions, and I would agree that there are certain Truths contained in scripture that we must be sure of. But I'm finding that list is pretty small.

What I'm talking about is people who pick some non-essential doctrine or theology and act as if what they say can never be questioned because to do so would be "arguing with scripture". But all of us believe that our beliefs are supported by scripture, and most of us could probably show why we believe that.

When I enter into debates, I try to remember to preface what I say with, "I believe..." and then explain why. This is a more accurate statement that takes into account my dimly lit view of things.

I believe that we should all be confident in what we believe, and I also believe that what we believe should be supported by scripture, but I also believe that we're fallible human beings and we can quickly fall into pride and arrogance when we think we have it all figured out.

 

[Svt4Him]

Okay, I like threads that get me thinking.

If there are self-evident truths, how many? What if I know 3 and another knows 6, can they say if I don't accept it, that I'm arguing with the Bible? Now I know few say that, but they mean the same thing.

For instance if I say there are different punishments for different sins in hell, to me it's self-evident. Or that God can be in the presence of sin in heaven.

Okay, I think anyone reading the Bible would see that, so maybe it's for subjective things?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Well there are certainly truths contained in the scriptures that can and should be used in such persuasive manners....

Jesus is the only way to heaven. This is one.
The Holy Spirit lives within all believers. This is another.
God is eternal.
God is all powerful.

ETC.

Most of the time though the "you are arguing with scripture and not me" statement is really just a cover up for someone who is interjecting their own thoughts into scripture or trying to bully someone into siding with them on a matter. Either way it is wrong.

BTW, I am not disagreeing with your statement