Arghhhh!!!

[zeke37]

I have for years believed that the second death menat just that.
I always thought only the devil and fallen angels would be tormented forever because God made them immortal they could not be destroyed.
But if this is the case the false prophet and beast must also be fallen angels ( not human ).



12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

this is the second death...that of the son of Perdition...Satan/antiChrist...and all who do not choose God over Satan in the End of the Millennium test, when God releases Satan for a short season one last time....shall follow him in the Lake of Fire...

Revelations 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them,

first fruits...those elect alive at Christ's return and the dead in Christ who return with Him at the 2nd coming...the 7th trump.

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

the proper way to translate this is... destroyed forever and ever....turned to ashes from within, and never living in Eternity...not being tortured forever...thee is no need...our Father is not a Sadist...

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

so there is no hell forever and ever but they are totally done away with as well, after their purpose has been served....

when God is done at Judgement day....then all are non over-comers are absolutely destroyed in the Lake of Fire, and then the Lake is destroyed, not tormenting souls forever...the result of the destruction of the soul is absolutely forever...the smoke of their torments rises forever, but they are not getting tortured forever...that is evil...

15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

and after that, the lake of fire is destroyed itself...

no tears in heaven, so the over-comers will not even remember those who did not overcome...

in His service
c

 

[Nadiine]

I have for years believed that the second death menat just that.
I always thought only the devil and fallen angels would be tormented forever because God made them immortal they could not be destroyed.
But if this is the case the false prophet and beast must also be fallen angels ( not human ).



12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

this is the second death...that of the son of Perdition...Satan/antiChrist...and all who do not choose God over Satan in the End of the Millennium test, when God releases Satan for a short season one last time....shall follow him in the Lake of Fire...

Revelations 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them,

first fruits...those elect alive at Christ's return and the dead in Christ who return with Him at the 2nd coming...the 7th trump.

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

the proper way to translate this is... destroyed forever and ever....turned to ashes from within, and never living in Eternity...not being tortured forever...thee is no need...our Father is not a Sadist...

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

so there is no hell forever and ever but they are totally done away with as well, after their purpose has been served....

when God is done at Judgement day....then all are non over-comers are absolutely destroyed in the Lake of Fire, and then the Lake is destroyed, not tormenting souls forever...the result of the destruction of the soul is absolutely forever...the smoke of their torments rises forever, but they are not getting tortured forever...that is evil...

15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

and after that, the lake of fire is destroyed itself...

no tears in heaven, so the over-comers will not even remember those who did not overcome...

in His service
c

Uh, no offense, but you ALSO teach the doctrine of "satans-seed" that Cain is from the Seed of Satan who eve had sex with instead of Adam (like Gen. 4:1 clearly says) - which promotes a racial issue. so.......
uh, if you adhere to that false doctrine, I'm a little worried about your perception of this one next.

I'm REAL careful who I learn from and people that show problems in other serious doctrines I usually watch out for.
Thanks anyways.

PS: annihilationism has plenty of problems as a doctrine as well - and not only is it not punishment for sin, IT'S RELEASE FROM PUNISHMENT altogether.
Atheists promote that there is no more after death - according to this, THEY'RE RIGHT! So just do what you want to do in this life & just stop existing; hope you all enjoyed your sins.

Annihilationists Reduce God’s Nature to Love
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell3.html

part one: http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell4.html

More links offered here to follow on this subject
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell.html

 

[Nadiine]

Universalism - what it produces and theologically REDUCES:

"The rejection of the doctrine of Endless Punishment cuts the ground from under the gospel.

Salvation supposes a prior damnation.

He who denies that he deserves eternal death cannot be saved from it so long as he persists in his denial.
If his denial is the truth, he needs no salvation.

If his denial is an error, the error prevents penitence for sin, and this prevents pardon. No error, consequently, is more fatal than that of Universalism. It blots out the attribute of retributive justice; transmutes sin into misfortune, instead of guilt; turns all suffering into chastisement; converts the atonement work of Christ into moral influence; and makes it a debt due to man, instead of an unmerited boon from God.

No teaching is more radical and revolutionizing, in its influence upon the Christian system. The attempt to retain the evangelical theology in connection with it is futile."

http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell.html

 

[Carey]

Uh, no offense, but you ALSO teach the doctrine of "satans-seed" that Cain is from the Seed of Satan who eve had sex with instead of Adam (like Gen. 4:1 clearly says) - which promotes a racial issue. so.......
uh, if you adhere to that false doctrine, I'm a little worried about your perception of this one next.

I'm REAL careful who I learn from and people that show problems in other serious doctrines I usually watch out for.
Thanks anyways.

PS: annihilationism has plenty of problems as a doctrine as well - and not only is it not punishment for sin, IT'S RELEASE FROM PUNISHMENT altogether.
Atheists promote that there is no more after death - according to this, THEY'RE RIGHT! So just do what you want to do in this life & just stop existing; hope you all enjoyed your sins.

Annihilationists Reduce God’s Nature to Love
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell3.html

part one: http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell4.html

More links offered here to follow on this subject
http://www.bible-researcher.com/hell.html

Someone teaches Cain was Satans son??

Wow that is a new one on me. Do they actually use scripture to rty to back that rediculous theory??

 

[Lightcreated]

Anyone that don't believe in "HELL" you're calling God a liar! anyway weather you believe it or not it's real and that will never change, just as JESUS was the SAVIOR and the pharasees didn't believe HE was the SAVIOR, but that didn't stop the fact the the Lord jesus christ was is and always will be the SAVIOR.

 

[Nadiine]

Someone teaches Cain was Satans son??

Wow that is a new one on me. Do they actually use scripture to rty to back that rediculous theory??

Well it's not a popular theology - it's actually led to racist issues bcuz some of the groups that teach it claim that the JEWS come from Cain's line - so it's used against Jews (that's what I read from it).
Arnold Murray of Shepherds chapel has taught this for a long time..
http://www.carm.org/chapel/serpent_seed.htm

this lady obviously worked w/ some pastor that believed this serpent seed theology and has alot to say on what's wrong with it & what it promotes:
http://www.satansrapture.com/sherrypage.htm

I don't know her or anything, but I do see how this theology can turn UGLY when you claim a certain "line of people" come from CAIN - "who came from satan directly" & are an "evil race"...
There's more info on it if you do a Google search on Serpent Seed doctrine.

All I know is, I'm VERY careful not to just read a post here and start believing it automatically without alot of study.
*note: something's wierd with the post quotes - it's not listing the right people who quoted what's being replied to

 

[Lightcreated]

Hey Carey, Make no mistake every human is created to exist forever and ever, and you will certainly have to spend your eternity in either 1 ofgetting 2 places, HEAVEN or HELL, and that's a fact..
You know everyone that is talking about there's no HELL, and putting their twist and ideas of what God plainly saids is or will be, they seriously need to think to themselves "am i truely a child of God.
Because a true child of God would never second guess Gods word, especially when he saids over and over again this is the situation and this is the case and this will surely happen.And you better believe it will with out a doubt happen.

 

[Zecryphon]

OH DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN, HAS THIS TURNEED INTO YET ANOTHER THREAD THAT UNIVERSALISM IS RUNNING RAMPANT IN?
(i notice the SAME players are here bright & early to dig in with it yet again too).
OH LORD help me.

Can I ask why in theee world people AREN'T PREACHING THE GOSPEL instead of incessantly rehashing Universalism and how God is just SO loving and kind that He just wouldn't harm a fly in the way the bible describes?

Since God DOES allow little children to be molested, battered, cancer-ridden & starved in His divine sovereignty, then God CAN condemn a soul eternally in a place of punishment.

If YOUR love wouldn't allow these things to happen to an innocent little boy or girl, then you cannot know how GOD'S ATTRIBUTE OF LOVE AND MERCY OPERATE IN THEIR DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY.
I for one wouldn't let one animal get hurt or killed on this planet if I were God - let GOD be God and leave JHis judgment to HIM as HE clarifies it in scripture (repeatedly).

universalism defeats the necessity of salvation in this lifetime.
IT IS HERESY. "You MUST be born again".
*fainting*

Nadiine,

in all fairness Tavita has pretty much stayed out of this one and James is nowhere to be seen. So I'm not dealing with the same people promoting universalism. Nope, this one is all Ben12.

 

[Nadiine]

Nadiine,

in all fairness Tavita has pretty much stayed out of this one and James is nowhere to be seen. So I'm not dealing with the same people promoting universalism. Nope, this one is all Ben12.

Sorry, I was mainly talking about Ben (which my posts were mainly replies to), and had only read 2 of Tavita's & one of Chris413's which made a statement re. Tavita's unfavorabe post -- so I went on that, I'm still slowly going thru this thread to try to catch up.

Thanks for your comment - but all the same, I'm just getting dog tired of this issue popping up everywhere like a rowboat with new holes in it. It does get old.
Might as well make a subforum for this at this rate like they had to do w/ abortion & homosexuality.

 

[Zecryphon]

If you notice, this is the mark of MOST people that bring false doctrines; they're unchurched and refuse to sit under spiritual authority of others.

THEY are their own teachers and they seek people TO TEACH instead.
God has always kept a system of corporate gathering with a STRUCTURE OF AUTHORITY WITHIN IT. Paul gave us all the offices and how to judge correctly within the church.

Instead, they stay out of the churches and seek to lead others AWAY From the church. If people can't see it for what it is, they need God or discernment.... or both.
Only the TRUE God teaches them PRIVATELY AND INDIVIDUALLY. The "secret truth" kinda stuff... cults use this too.
God teaches ME truth... the others are evil organizations that God left to their error...

I call it rebellion to God's established order for His flock. Again, I don't claim people have to be in church 24/7 - go ahead and skip a week or 2 - my issue is towards the Rebellion against any regular worship that should be a red flag to a Christian's spirit.

Anyways, this hits the nail on the head. And I REFUSE to let these types of people BE MY SPIRITUAL TEACHERS when they shun spiritual authority over themselves!

"If you notice, this is the mark of MOST people that bring false doctrines; they're unchurched and refuse to sit under spiritual authority of others."

I have noticed that. But I do know people that do not attend church anymore because of the "corporate mindset" that permeates alot of churches today and they do not profess this type of false teaching. So while forsaking the assembly is bad, I'm not quick to say that it will automatically lead to what we're seeing displayed by Ben. In my opinion, there is something more sinister at work here.

"THEY are their own teachers and they seek people TO TEACH instead.
God has always kept a system of corporate gathering with a STRUCTURE OF AUTHORITY WITHIN IT. Paul gave us all the offices and how to judge correctly within the church."

Actually God established the offices, remember Paul was just conveying God's message. Paul was God's pen so to speak.

"Instead, they stay out of the churches and seek to lead others AWAY From the church. If people can't see it for what it is, they need God or discernment.... or both.
Only the TRUE God teaches them PRIVATELY AND INDIVIDUALLY. The "secret truth" kinda stuff... cults use this too."

Yeah, all that secret truth and hidden meaning stuff, I'm leery of, and what's happening in this thread and others is the reason why. People place more emphasis on the hidden meaning and discovering those than they do on the plain meaning of the text, which is the message God wants all to hear. So turn off the History and Discovery channels Christian, and open up your Bible.

"God teaches ME truth... the others are evil organizations that God left to their error... "

I'll agree with that and the verses I quoted earlier prove that. God will harden your heart against Him, if you make it known that you do not want Him or His truth in your life. He did it Pharaoh and I believe he's doing it to Ben. I'm not talking about Universalism here, I'm talking about his other erroneous comments, such as Jesus not practicing the Jewish faith. I've gotta wonder if he's ever read the NT.

"I call it rebellion to God's established order for His flock. Again, I don't claim people have to be in church 24/7 - go ahead and skip a week or 2 - my issue is towards the Rebellion against any regular worship that should be a red flag to a Christian's spirit."

Yeah, that is a red flag, but there are those who are shut-ins that can't go to church and I think some people justify their not going to church by pointing at the shut-ins and asking "well what about them? Why are you so worried about me?"

"Anyways, this hits the nail on the head. And I REFUSE to let these types of people BE MY SPIRITUAL TEACHERS when they shun spiritual authority over themselves!"

Ben has said that he does sit under the teaching of people that God has appointed and annointed to teach him. But to know if these teachers are annointed Ben would have to test them in some way, which he has made clear he is against. There's alot of flip-flopping going on here. He's against one practice in the church, but he's just fine with it when it suits his needs. I just don't know what to believe anymore in his posts and since I'm not a cherry-picker of what is true and what is not true, everything he writes is suspect and not worthy of my attention. It just leads to headaches.

 

[Zecryphon]

Sorry, I was mainly talking about Ben (which my posts were mainly replies to), and had only read 2 of Tavita's & one of Chris413's which made a statement re. Tavita's unfavorabe post -- so I went on that, I'm still slowly going thru this thread to try to catch up.

Thanks for your comment - but all the same, I'm just getting dog tired of this issue popping up everywhere like a rowboat with new holes in it. It does get old.
Might as well make a subforum for this at this rate like they had to do w/ abortion & homosexuality.

I would love to see Ben start a thread about this in the Theology section or a section where interdenominational debate is allowed. But he won't do it, even though he says he'd love to.

 

[Zecryphon]

BEN .. it's not about "what you believe"; YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT YOU ARE JUDGING WHAT IS JUST AND UNJUST IN YOUR HUMAN 'WISDOM'.

You are putting your HUMAN FEELINGS of justice and fairness and forcing them on a Holy, Just GOD! How can you say it's UNJUST for God to punish them eternally?

As I asked in a prev. post, would YOU stand by and let a little girl be molested?
(please say NO!). Would I? no!
Would you sit by and watch innocent kids starving next door to you without intervening? listen to them being brutally beaten?

Would God?
​

You cannot possibly know how God would JUDGE sin and sinners if you answered NO to any of my above questions to you. My point is, WE cannot sit by and ignore evil when we can step in to stop it - God COULD stop it, yet lets people suffer by it every single day for thousands of years.

HOW CAN YOU ASSUME WHAT IS JUST AND UNJUST when God lets what we see continue daily? You said He's loving & merciful & gracious - so how does THAT MESH with the evil we see going on? SOVEREIGNTY AND A PLAN.
God's WILL is that none sin too --- but He permits it to continue and permits many people to be tortured and murdered in the process.
Could God stop the Darfur genocide? Sure, He could. HAS HE? not yet. Girls are raped there all the time - they're starved and homeless!
How are YOU judging what Love & mercy are in your human capacity - yet claiming God CAN'T condemn eternally???

He has a plan and allows evil in His permissive will - yet you want to tell us that God CANNOT punish Evil eternally bcuz He's love?
MY idea of love and His aren't quite the same - BUT I'M NOT GOD. Who am I to say God's version of love isn't as loving as mine?

& Do you realize that sin doesn't get "removed" unless Jesus' blood covers it to remove it? SIN CONTINUES TO EXIST, it's not "taken away" from the lost. They "die in their sin", it's never remitted or removed bcuz Jesus' blood wasn't accepted as their sacrifice for it.

IT IS JUST FOR GOD TO ETERNALLY CONTAIN THE SINNERS WHO DIE IN THER SIN WHICH NEVER GETS REMOVED. GOD CONTAINS THEIR SOULS AND THEIR SIN IN GEHENNA WHERE DEATH AND HELL ARE THROWN WITH SATAN TO STAY FOREVER.
Sin remains locked up there never to get back out.

THE SINS OF THE SAINTS ARE REMOVED BY JESUS bcuz they accepted His payment for their sins in this life.

Sadly, you're deciding what's just and unjust and what love is by YOUR human emotion and intellect - NOT GOD'S. You are judging GOD by your flawed standards & perceptions.
YOU have the unjust problem; not God. It's actually UNJUST for you to claim that God is unjust in eternal condemnation.
Bcuz until you view sin for what it truly is, and what it does when it's let out to do it's work, you will not grasp how JUST it is for God to put people and their sins in Gehenna so as never to be let out again to corrupt what is remade PURE for the Saints who eternally reside with God.

Hebrews 10:28
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

(rejected the blood of Christ - rejected His sacrifice for them).

You need to get in line with how GOD views sin & rejection of Christ's death.

They also need to realize that God has commanded that all men repent and that a day of Judgment is coming. Acts 17:30-31 bears out this truth. A Judgment Day is not neccessary if everyone is saved because Christ died on a cross and rose from the dead. What's left to judge? Works done in this life? Well that's fine and good because there's no punishment associated with that judgment just rewards and the degree of how well a person will be rewarded. It's the punishment aspect of Judgment Day that people fear and they should.

 

[Nadiine]

I have noticed that. But I do know people that do not attend church anymore because of the "corporate mindset" that permeates alot of churches today and they do not profess this type of false teaching. So while forsaking the assembly is bad, I'm not quick to say that it will automatically lead to what we're seeing displayed by Ben. In my opinion, there is something more sinister at work here.

I think too many Christians are getting more permeated by the world than renewed by God lately. Too deep into the world, so they start believing the subtle lies - it all starts with SMALL suggestions and comments.

It doesn't make them 'nonChristian', it makes them ripe for Satan to more easily work over. And without a church 'network' - or spiritual authority/ accountability, they run a higher risk of getting burnt spiritually.
And, I do believe some of those AREN'T Christians.. (not that it's my job to start sorting who's who!).

Actually God established the offices, remember Paul was just conveying God's message. Paul was God's pen so to speak.

Yes.

Yeah, that is a red flag, but there are those who are shut-ins that can't go to church and I think some people justify their not going to church by pointing at the shut-ins and asking "well what about them? Why are you so worried about me?"

Well, my point was to the Attitude of those who WON'T go, not the ones that can't go. God can protect and feed a person with an open & soft heart... (like you had mentioned, harden your heart and God can start hardening you further - Romans 9).
I was pointing to "heart" issue of refusal of God's order rather than just "not going" sometimes - or if you can't.
I think there's a big difference in that. Sometimes I don't go if I'm really tired or not feeling too well - it's not that I'm anti Church attending or out there trying to propagandize others into not going!

 

[Zecryphon]

[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]

I think too many Christians are getting more permeated by the world than renewed by God lately. Too deep into the world, so they start believing the subtle lies - it all starts with SMALL suggestions and comments.

It doesn't make them 'nonChristian', it makes them ripe for Satan to more easily work over. And without a church 'network' - or spiritual authority/ accountability, they run a higher risk of getting burnt spiritually.
And, I do believe some of those AREN'T Christians.. (not that it's my job to start sorting who's who!).



Yes.




Well, my point was to the Attitude of those who WON'T go, not the ones that can't go. God can protect and feed a person with an open & soft heart... (like you had mentioned, harden your heart and God can start hardening you further - Romans 9).
I was pointing to "heart" issue of refusal of God's order rather than just "not going" sometimes - or if you can't.
I think there's a big difference in that. Sometimes I don't go if I'm really tired or not feeling too well - it's not that I'm anti Church attending or out there trying to propagandize others into not going!

You're right about the difference between a shut-in and someone who absolutely refuses to go to church. I just wanted to bring up the justification a lot of non-attenders will bring up in defense of their refusal to obey God. For these people it's not a health issue, in the physical sense but a health issue in the spiritual sense because this is a submission problem of the worst kind.

 

[zeke37]

Uh, no offense, but you ALSO teach the doctrine of "satans-seed" that Cain is from the Seed of Satan who eve had sex with instead of Adam (like Gen. 4:1 clearly says) - which promotes a racial issue. so.......
uh, if you adhere to that false doctrine, I'm a little worried about your perception of this one next.

ouch....Cain was not mentioned in this thread. On that other thread, there is plenty of proof that shows that Eve was wholly seduced in every way, including sex with Satan the fallen angel, just as the descendants of Adam were in Gen6. As for racial problems, that exists in each section of life...in every denomination and belief...this has no more or no less. If there are teachers that teach it as such, then they are incorrect and shall have to answer to that. Judgement begins at the house of God.

knowing the serpent has a seed is easy from Gen3:15...Cain is that seed as Jesus explains more than one time....Cain's offspring are the scribes, not the Jews, the scribes....not physically identifiable...only spiritually...and we are told not to harm them for God will deal with them after they fulfill their part of His plan...He deals with them, not man....so any racial bs that comes from this is out of warped individuals...not from the doctrine...the true one any way...

I believe you have an adequate answer on the other thread...You cannot control what people do with truth....

examples...1/2 the church believes in pre trib rapture and the other 1/2 believes in Post trib (mainly). Both have the truth and see things differently...

1/2 the church believes in the charismatic tongue or the possibility of it being real (what they say it is)
1/2 think that it is a farce or worse...demonic...

Both groups have the truth, and claim the guidance of God but in these cases, both groups cannot be right...

I'm REAL careful who I learn from and people that show problems in other serious doctrines I usually watch out for.

Ya me to...

Thanks anyways.

No problem...

PS: annihilationism has plenty of problems as a doctrine as well - and not only is it not punishment for sin,

sure it is....it is absence of life forever...eternal separation from God...nothingness...not only the ultimate punishment but fulfills God's desire to ween out all the losers for the Eternity.....for ever is a long time.

And I am not speaking of Pre vs post but rather all the ungodly people of the world...we don't need them or want them in the forever after....but we must give everyone the opportunity to choose God in this life....our timetable is not necessarily God's.

All who believe in Christ shall over come...many not until after the Millennium, but they shall over come....those that do not love God shall not over come but face the second death, that of the soul in the lake of fire....for we are not to fear man but rather we are to fear/revere God who can kill the soul...the Same Who created it can destroy it...or refine it....many shall be purified in the refinement of the Millennium....as precious metal is refined.

Many Christians shall be refined during that time.

IT'S RELEASE FROM PUNISHMENT altogether.

well, it is release from life, into nothingness....

Atheists promote that there is no more after death - according to this, THEY'RE RIGHT!

No, they are wrong...there is either Life forever with Jesus for over-comers....or there is nothingness for those who do not overcome. Every fair chance will be given to the ones that do not overcome...Our God is a just God.

This is not about a guessing game...the second death is for those who refuse to love God, not for those who "think" there is not God....for when they find out for real that there is a God, many shall realize it, accept it and eventually (IMO) overcome. Only those whoa re truly against God and what HE says...they shall be destroyed forever.

So just do what you want to do in this life & just stop existing; hope you all enjoyed your sins.

A believers promise is life ever-after...

a non believers promise is the second death...

make out of it what you want. I just point it out....drop a seed...God grows the seed, not me.

in His service
c

 

[Nadiine]

They also need to realize that God has commanded that all men repent and that a day of Judgment is coming. Acts 17:30-31 bears out this truth. A Judgment Day is not neccessary if everyone is saved because Christ died on a cross and rose from the dead. What's left to judge? Works done in this life? Well that's fine and good because there's no punishment associated with that judgment just rewards and the degree of how well a person will be rewarded. It's the punishment aspect of Judgment Day that people fear and they should.

To go a step further, I don't even believe there's anything "TO JUDGE" - my view is that the "judgment" is just a Formality for the person for their own realization.
They're already found guilty at the moment they die (if lost of course) - they already get contained in hell to await sentencing.

 

[Ben12]

I thought Luther was dead; sorry my mistake? One of the most common phases I hear coming out of churches today is; “I slept thought the whole sermon”; I cannot blame them; there is no life.

The reason you all are getting head aches is because you approach God’s Word by you mind (human/carnal earthy) God’s Word is spirit and it is truth. There is nothing natural; or carnal about it; and if there was it always has a deeper meaning.

I have explained to you why I do not attend any religion; let me ask you a simple question. Out to the thousands upon thousands of little man made social clubs; made up very un-scriptural pagan creeds and doctrines of damnations; what little social group is the true Church.
The greatest opposition that Jesus ever faced was not the government in Rome, but the religious spirit that ruled in the hearts of his own people. Jesus himself said, “A man’s foes shall be those of his own household.”

The greatest opposition Joseph ever faced was not Potiphar or Pharaoh but escaping death by the hand of his own religious brothers. The greatest foe of the Israelites in the wilderness was not the heathen nations they encountered on their journey through the wilderness, but those who were in their midst who were not circumcised in heart. It was this religious group that caused more Israelites to die in the wilderness than all of their enemies combined. The greatest foe of the Anabaptists (a group of believers that rose up after the protestant reformation) was not the Church of Rome, but their Lutheran brethren who still practiced infantile baptism, who just thirty years before were God’s anointed instrument in the Earth. I’ll be bold enough to say that the greatest hindrance of the move of God today in the United States and in the hearts of those that profess to know God is the spirit of this World, whose greatest guise is RELIGION!

“After the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee” (Acts 26:5).

From the above scripture Saul/Paul plainly states that he was a VERY religious man until one day he had a direct encounter with the Lord (Acts 9:3-5). From that moment on his “religion” began to fade away, and he began to embrace the new and living way. Later on he again declared, “But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ” (Phil 3:7-8; NAS). Paul’s own assessment of his past religious achievements was rubbish and something to be discarded. He gave up a religion that trusted in human attainments and the work of man to appease God. To the Pharisee salvation was a work of man that gave them a sense of self-satisfaction (Rom. 10:2-4). Sadly enough there are many religious minded believers today that are working for God, not with God. Jesus addresses this mindset when He says; “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in
Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness’ (Mt. 7:22-23; NAS). There are those in the body of Christ that use their God given gift outside of His will and base their relationship with God around their good works. That’s part of the religion of this world, not an intimate relationship with the Heavenly Father!

Unlike those above who thought that their identity was in their gifting, Paul had a new goal that cried out from the depths of his soul, “That I may gain Christ, and be found in Him!” The etymology of our English word “gain” comes from Old High German that has a literal meaning: “a pasture without fences.” When God starts to usher us into the fullness of Christ it truly is a pasture without fences. To change the metaphor, “there are waters to swim in” (Ezek. 47:5), or “skip about like calves let from the stall” (Mal. 4:2). I have found that many who profess the name of Christ do not worship Him in truth but are confined to worship a religious image of Christ that keeps them spiritually confined and fenced in. So we find the body of Christ worshipping the graven image of a Baptist Jesus, Pentecostal Jesus, Methodist Jesus, Church of Christ Jesus, a Lutheran Jesus, Presbyterian Jesus, and many non-denominational yet denominational Jesus’. It is easy to name that spirit and the kind of worship that surrounds it; it’s called IDOLATRY! We have changed the incorruptible image of God into a corruptible image made by the hands of men (Rom. 1:23; Ps. 106:19-20).

Paul said it this way; “That each one of you is saying, ‘I am of Paul’, and ‘I of Apollos’, and ‘I of Cephas’, and ‘I of Christ’” (1Cor. 1:12). I pray that God will destroy all of the graven images we have erected in His name. Yes, mystery Babylon is going to be destroyed in a day by the Daystar Himself!

Our English word “religion” comes from the Latin “religio” which means “a taboo, a restraint” and bespeaks of a system exercised by the will of man designed to gain favor with God. The word broken down is “re” (return) +”ligare” (to bond with a restraint). Simply stated the word means… RETURN TO BONDAGE! Religion keeps us eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, living in a realm of “do this, don’t do that.” Religion in a scriptural nutshell is living in Romans chapter seven when we ought to be living in Romans chapter eight. It is an impossibility to do both. The Greek word for “religion” is threskeia, which means “outward ceremonial observance.” The religious sects of Jesus’ day asked Him when the Kingdom would come. He said, “The Kingdom of God does not come with observation” (Lk.17:21), it is not ushered in by some outward ceremonial observance.

I do not believe by scriptural definition that true Christianity is a religion. Christianity can become a religion as soon as we inject it with self-effort and self-will. When we turn it into some form of enterprise that becomes primarily self-serving for the interests of the flesh, it becomes a religion. For some, quote, Christian folk, if they were to really be truthful with themselves, the primary reason they go to Church is to FEEL GOOD! Jesus had these kinds of folk following Him. He spoke a message concerning them eating His flesh and drinking His blood which afterwards many quit following Him and not being intimidated by this he turned to the twelve and asked if they were going to leave also (Jn. 6:54).

In the side notes of the Companion bible, Bullinger points out in Genesis three that the sphere of Satan is always denying the Word of God. He comments that Satan is the god of this world’s religion, not of its crimes and immoralities. His sphere is the corruption of the truth rather than the degradation of the flesh.

I believe Christianity can be summed up in five words; “His bond-servants shall serve Him”(Rev. 22:3). Jesus said, “True worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth” (Jn. 4:23). Any form of worship that requires an atmosphere to stimulate an attitude or mood through ceremonial observances (MUST-meet in a certain place, have robed choirs, stain glassed windows, sing three ditties, offering, 15minute message) is not a spontaneous outflow from our spirit initiated by His! It is a religious expression generated for body-conscious people who require something to be seen or felt, or they believe that God did not show up for the meeting. Religion is man-centered, that by his own works he seeks to appease god. Religion always tries to entice man to “DO” rather than “BECOME.” If you need to exercise good works (ceremonies, programs, rituals, read Bible more, pray more, fellowship more) to feel close to God, you have become religious. All you need to do is get alone with the shepherd of your heart, your first love, this is truly the higher assembling of ourselves together in the Lord which some have FORSAKEN (Heb. 10:25). As Ray Prinzing has written so well concerning religion, “And thus…man is the subject; God is the object. Man is the doer; God is the one that it is done for. Man is the giver; God is the receiver. That my friend is OLD COVENANT, and THAT’S RELIGIOUS! So religion is man-seeking God, Christianity is GOD SEEKING MAN! Jesus said, “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you” (John 15:16-17; NKJV). And thus it is in truth; God is the subject; man is the object. God is the doer; man is the one it’s done for. God is the giver; man is the receiver. THAT’S NEW COVENANT!” End Quote.

We’ve all been hatched out from underneath some Babylonian hen. I believe the spirit of Religion is being judged in the church today. It’s like the ship that Paul was on that was on its way to Rome, it’s destined for the rocks. Let’s cut all of the anchors loose (man made programs and sin conscious preaching) for it’s hopeless to fight against the winds of the Spirit, and let’s let her DRIVE (Acts 27)! It’s time the lively stones of the true house of God cease to offer up strange fire and come out and be separated to God, worshipping Him in spirit and in truth!

 

[Nadiine]

I thought Luther was dead; sorry my mistake? One of the most common phases I hear coming out of churches today is; “I slept thought the whole sermon”; I cannot blame them; there is no life.

I suppose your whole shpeel NULLIFIES THE CORPORATE WORSHIP EXAMPLED IN THE NT that the apostles promoted and started!!???

You've injected YOUR personal opinions to nullify God's direct example of church assembly. And have you personally attended a majority of churches in everyone's local areas around the world to KNOW how "boring" they all are?

MINE'S FAR FROM BORING- it's fantastic! My husband and I have never felt more thrilled with the church we found! Picking out some BAD churches doesn't presuppose THAT NO GOOD ONES EXIST! OR that it's WRONG to assemble as our NT specifies & gives structured guidelines for proper function!

The error here is YOURS, not the people who attend! YOUR opinion based on YOUR doctrines.
I go by my Bible, not YOU.

 

[Ben12]

Sure there are good Churches and God is in them. I will even say God is in the bad churches; I am happy for you. But I also gave you explanations of how I see this awesome verse in Hebrews is declaring. In stead of reaching out for the reality; you go for the throat. Most Christians forsake and neglect that wonderful seating we have together WITH CHRIST IN THE HEAVENLIES! That is precisely what the passage is saying. Hebrews 10:25 is nothing but lifeless words, until one sits in the presence of the Father, joined in worship with kindred spirits, and partakes of that holy communion within the veil! It is only as spirit calls to spirit that the depths of eternal truth are opened. And multitudes who meet together every week for singing, teaching, etc., have never discovered the glorious and eternal reality of that ABOVE SYNAGOGUE.

Heb. 13:13

Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach​

​

Revelation 18:3

For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies 4. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


The Greek word for "assembling" is EPISUNAGOGE. The word, literally, is a verb meaning to synagogue. It is a compound of the Greek prefix EPI with the word SUNAGOGE from which we get our transliterated English word Synagogue. EPI means super- imposition - that which is above, higher than, highest, upon. SUNAGOGE means a meeting, assembly, or gathering. Putting these two words together, EPI- SUNAGOGE means THE ABOVE SYNAGOGUE, THE HIGHER MEETING, THE HIGHEST ASSEMBLY, THE HIGHER-THAN-ALL-GATHERINGS! It bespeaks of something far greater than merely collecting so many breathing bodies together in one place. It is a meeting in a higher realm, on a higher plane, in the high places of the Spirit, and in the heights of Truth. It is a gathering together in a dimension above. It indicates an assembling IN THE SPIRIT, as Paul also testified, "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:6). Tens of thousands, yea, tens of millions of believers gather together in "church buildings" every Sunday morning, and because they make the effort to get out of bed, get the family ready, and drive off to a warm pew, they are convinced that they have met the requirements of the divine fiat: "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together

All I see and hear in this so called shallow debate is personal attacks; frustrations and a few head aches. You can quote a thousand verses to someone and they mean nothing unless God’s Spirit quickens you carnal understanding and I will add my carnal understanding.

I see God’s Word as Spirit (which has nothing to do with your or my bias, and everything to do with God is saying) and I have to wonder if any of you even know what spirit is; it seems you whole understanding has to do with the literal letter of the verse; its context. Anything that appears hidden or a parable, mystery, type, shadow or spiritual must always come to your level of understanding and not asking the Spirit of truth for the deep hidden meaning.

Christ, the Spirit, is completely without the camp! He is outside the camp of the systems of this world, including the political, economic, and religious systems of man; He is outside the camp of the denominations, churches, and fellowships; He is outside the camp of those who continue in the old ways of the dead, church order of the past; He is also outside the camp of anything that is of man, or that man’s works have created. No longer is He dealing with the apostate systems of man, but knocking, knocking, knocking at the heart’s door of individual men and women, saying to them, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” This passage can only refer to the spiritual presence of Christ coming to any individual, to any man or woman who will open their heart’s door to intimacy of fellowship and vital union with Christ

 

[Zecryphon]

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I suppose your whole shpeel NULLIFIES THE CORPORATE WORSHIP EXAMPLED IN THE NT that the apostles promoted and started!!???

You've injected YOUR personal opinions to nullify God's direct example of church assembly. And have you personally attended a majority of churches in everyone's local areas around the world to KNOW how "boring" they all are?

MINE'S FAR FROM BORING- it's fantastic! My husband and I have never felt more thrilled with the church we found! Picking out some BAD churches doesn't presuppose THAT NO GOOD ONES EXIST! OR that it's WRONG to assemble as our NT specifies & gives structured guidelines for proper function!

The error here is YOURS, not the people who attend! YOUR opinion based on YOUR doctrines.
I go by my Bible, not YOU.

Nadiine,

I've stopped talking with Ben12 because he continually posts wrong information. He gave a false definition of the word signify in post # 78 of this thread on page 8. He wrote the following: Revelations 1:1

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols."​

The word I believe he's looking for above is relevant not reverent. This post is leading people to believe that signified means only signs and symbols, when in fact the word symbol is not found in any definition of "signified" that I have come across. Here is one definition I've found for "signify".​

sig·ni·fy

/ˈsɪg

nəˌfaɪ/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sig-nuh-fahy]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciationverb, -fied, -fy·ing. ​

–verb (used with object) 1.to make known by signs, speech, or action. 2.to be a sign of; mean; portend. –verb (used without object) 3.to be of importance or consequence.

Now on to the definition of the Latin word Religio. The following Etymology has been given for the word "religio".

Our English word “religion” comes from the Latin “religio” which means “a taboo, a restraint” and bespeaks of a system exercised by the will of man designed to gain favor with God. The word broken down is “re” (return) +”ligare” (to bond with a restraint). Simply stated the word means… RETURN TO BONDAGE!"

Notice how this is presented as a fact? The Latin word "religio" has never meant taboo. Plus the exact meaning of this word is heavily debated among scholars. Wonder why this detail was left out. I mean the information being presented is supposed to educate us, right? But if this information is not correct, is the post educating us or deceiving us? Here are a few sources I've found on the etymology of the Latin word "religio".

The first one is found at: http://www.takeourword.com/et_q-s.html#religion


From Jack Worlton :

The word religion is notoriously difficult to define. It comes, of course, from the Latin religio, but whence comes this word? One etymology is from religare, from re- `again' and ligare `to bind.' Thus, religion is that to which we are double or strongly bound. But we have many bonds, so we conclude that we have many religions. An good thought, but are there other etymologies of religio?​

Excellent question. The current meaning of religion has evolved to `belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.' However, as you suggest, that specific meaning is not found in the etymological history of the word religion. The root of the word is indeed thought to be Latin religare, which means `to tie fast,' as you have noted. From that came Latin religio which originally meant `obligation, bond.' This word developed a more specialized sense: `bond between human beings and gods.' In the 5th century the word came to pertain to `monastic life,' and it was this sense that the word possessed when English acquired it via Old French religion in the 12th century. The current meaning did not evolve until, surprisingly, the 16th century.

Interestingly, a lone source attributes the source of Latin religio to relegere `go through' or `read again.' The source does not indicate how the progression from `read again' to `belief in supernatural powers' might have occurred, however.

This next one is found at everybody's favorite source for info the Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

The etymology of the word "religion" has been debated for centuries. The English word clearly derives from the Latin religio, "reverence (for the gods)" or "conscientiousness". The precise origins of religio, however, are obscure. It is usually accepted to derive from ligare "bind, connect". Likely from a prefixed re-ligare, i.e. re (again) + ligare. This interpretation is favoured by modern scholars such as Tom Harpur and Joseph Campbell, but was made prominent by St. Augustine, following the interpretation of Lactantius. Another possibility is derivation from a reduplicated *le-ligare. A historical interpretation due to Cicero on the other hand connects lego "read", i.e. re (again) + lego in the sense of "choose", "go over again" or "consider carefully".

This final one is a bit long as well, but worth it, I believe. It is found at:http://www.giffordlectures.org/Browse.asp?PubID=TPNATR&Volume=0&Issue=0&ArticleID=4

Etymological Definition of Religio.

The etymological definition of religion has attracted considerable interest among theologians, owing to that kind of tacit persuasion that the etymology of the word must somehow or other help to disclose its real meaning. It is well known that Lactantius derived religio from religare, to bind or hold back, and he did so, not simply as a philologist, but as a theologian. ‘We are born,’ he says, ‘under the condition that, when born, we should offer to God our justly due services, should know Him only, and follow Him only. We are tied to God and bound to Him (religati) by the bond of piety, and from this has religion itself received its name, and not, as Cicero has interpreted it, from attention (a relegendo)9.’

Before we examine this etymology, it will be useful to give the etymology which Lactantius ascribes to Cicero, and which he is bold enough to reject. Cicero says: ‘Those who carefully took in hand all things pertaining to the worship of the gods, were called religiosi, from relӗgere,—as neat people (elegantes) were so called from elegere10, to pick out; likewise diligent people, diligentes, from diligere, to choose, to value, and intelligent people from intelligere, to understand; for in all these words there is the meaning of legere, to gather, to choose, the same as in religiosus11.

Let us first clear the ground of some statements which are repeated again and again, but which have really no foundation. It is often said that Varro12 supports the etymology of Lactantius, but Varro simply treats of lӗgere and lӗgio, and thus supports indirectly the etymology of Cicero, rather than that of Lactantius.
Festus, again, if he is to be quoted at all as having given an etymology of religio, sides with Cicero, and not with Lactantius, for he says that people are called religiosi if they make a choice (delectus) of what has to be done or to be omitted in the worship of the gods, according to the custom of the state, and do not entangle themselves in superstitions13.

Of later writers St. Augustin follows sometimes the one, sometimes the other derivation, as it suits his purpose; while among modern theologians it has actually been maintained that religio was descended from religare as well as from relegere, so as to combine the meanings of both14.

From a purely philological point of view it cannot be denied that religio might have sprung from religare quite as well as from relegere. The ordinary objection that from religare we should have religatio, and not religio, has no real weight, for we find by the side of opinari such words as opinio, not opinatio, and necopinus; and by the side of rebellare, rebellis and rebellio. In lictor also, if it meant originally a man who binds the criminal, we should have to admit a root ligere, by the side of ligare.

The real objection to our deriving religio from religare is the fact that in classical Latin religare is never used in the sense of binding or holding back. In that sense we should have expected obligatio, or possibly obligio, but not religio. Cicero's etymology is therefore decidedly preferable, as more in accordance with Latin idiom. Relegere would be the opposite of neglegere or negligere15, and as neglegere meant ‘not to care,’ relegere would naturally have meant ‘to care,’ ‘to regard,’ ‘to revere’16. From a verse quoted by Nigidius Figulus from an ancient writer, and preserved by Gellius (iv. 9), we learn that religens was actually used, as opposed to religiosus. He said: Religentem esse oportet, religiosus ne fuas, ‘it is right to be reverent, but do not be religious,’ that is, superstitious17.

The German word Andacht, literally thoughtfulness, then reverence, has sometimes been compared with religio, but there is a slight difference, for Andacht conveys the meaning of meditation rather than of regard and reverence.

There is one more etymological definition of religion which Gellius (iv. 9) ascribes to one Masurius Sabinus. He derived religiosum, in the sense of sacred, from relinquere, to leave or put aside, as something too sacred for ordinary purposes18. As phonetic laws would not allow of this derivation, we need not discuss it further.

So much for the etymology of religio, which in its first conception can only have meant respect, care, reverence.

Alot of the claims found in the posts of Ben12 are easily disproven with about 5 minutes of research on the internet. His posts have been found to contain false information that is presented as fact and therefore the posts can not and should not be taken as fact or even as informed opinion. For this reason I do not consider him a teacher that has been appointed or annointed by God to teach the body of Christ anything that would be edifying to us as a whole.