Are your churches using Jesus Culture songs in praise and worship?

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DawnStar

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Moral relativism was wrong when Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth?" Two thousand years later it's still just as wrong.
If you were speaking about differences in truth between people and cultures I would agree with you. But we are speaking about denominations or non-denominations that each base their version of the truth on the bible. We are speaking about differences in interpretation. Each claims the spirit guides their interpretation. Each claims to have a monopoly on the truth.
 
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DawnStar

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AGTG you never answered my question.

AGTG why did you post this in the Baptist forum instead of the non-denominational forum? Since your are non-denominational it would seem like you would be more concerned with them instead of Baptists.
 
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AGTG

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Christians should not embrace "interpretations" because it's bad to embrace error. Christians can, however, readily find clear truths in the scriptures that are irrefutable.

If it's not clearly found in the Bible, it should be regarded as error and discarded.

Paul warned the Galatians about witchcraft when he found they were embracing the error of legalism:

Galatians 3:1
Oh you foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?

The word "bewitch" is the Greek word baskanos. It is Strong's word #940:

940 baskaínō (from baskanos, "to cast an evil spell, wishing injury upon someone; to bewitch") – properly, to exercise evil power over someone, like putting them under a spell; (used only in Gal 3:1); (figuratively) captivate ("be spellbinding"), appealing to someone's vanity and selfishness; "to blight by the evil eye, bewitch" (Abbott-Smith).

[In classical Greek, Aristotle used 940 (baskaínō) for "bewitching through the use of an evil power." That is, putting someone under a spell so they no longer could think (act) according to reason. 940 (baskaínō) is also associated with envy (so Josephus V:425; Demosthenes 20,24; Theocr. 5,13, ala Abbott-Smith).]
 
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AGTG

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AGTG you never answered my question.

Because the desire of this movement is to devour all of Christendom. This thread is a warning to stand strong in the truth for churches that have not come under the witchcraft manipulation of this movement.
 
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OzSpen

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I am always amused that many Christians immediately ascribe satanic influence to any form of worship they disagree with.

That's your personal opinion. I'm not of that view. I want to know the biblical theology taught in the songs and how it agrees with the truth of Scripture. If it is not affirming of sound theology, I chuck it. Throughout Christian history, much of Christian theology has been put to music. This was done by Charles Wesley, Isaac Watts, John Newton and other hymnists.
 
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OzSpen

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If you were speaking about differences in truth between people and cultures I would agree with you. But we are speaking about denominations or non-denominations that each base their version of the truth on the bible. We are speaking about differences in interpretation. Each claims the spirit guides their interpretation. Each claims to have a monopoly on the truth.

And the Bible speaks about those who are false teachers (Gal 5:7-12; 2 Tim 4:3-4; 1 John 4:1-6; Jude 1:4) and false prophets (Matt 7:15; 24:24; 2 Pet 2:1) who can all be using the Bible. Nevertheless they are false teachers and prophesying falsehood.

They may sound OK but be false. False teaching and false prophesy can find their ways into songs we sing.

In 2013, Christianity Today had an article, 'Reformed Rapper Calls Out 12 Popular Pastors as "False Teachers"'.

Have you read Sandy Simpson's article, 'Worship song rating'?

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Because the desire of this movement is to devour all of Christendom. This thread is a warning to stand strong in the truth for churches that have not come under the witchcraft manipulation of this movement.

AGTG,

Why don't you find one song from 'Jesus Culture' that has lyrics that are promoting false theology so that we can discuss the biblical content of this song?

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Christians should not embrace "interpretations" because it's bad to embrace error. Christians can, however, readily find clear truths in the scriptures that are irrefutable.

If it's not clearly found in the Bible, it should be regarded as error and discarded.

AGTG,

It's impossible to read any document, whether the local newspaper, Shakespeare, John Calvin's Institutes, or Scripture without making interpretations. With Scripture being a translated language into English, there are many reasons why what is stated needs to be interpreted grammatically and in context.

If I use incorrect Greek grammar (I read and teach NT Greek) for the NT, I'll arrive at incorrect interpretations.

It's a misnomer to say that Christians should not embrace 'interpretations' and that there are clear truths in Scripture that is uninterpreted. Truth is obtained by correctly interpreting Scripture with grammatical, historical and cultural tools and context.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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This post clearly states Jesus' warning against submitting yourself to ministries that are operating in hypocrisy. Since mass-media ministries cannot be scrutinized face to face, people would do well to listen to Jesus' warning and stay clear of the influence of such ministries.

I have recently come out from a ministry under such influences. It was a very bad experience, and brought great trouble upon me. As I came out from their influence, I recognized there was great deception at work in those ministries that clouded my judgment.

When I asked God how and why this could have happened, those were the scriptures (Luke 12:1 and 1 Tim. 4:1-2) that He brought to my attention so I could be more careful in the future, and I feel I should warn others so they can be more careful, too.

The simple fact is, if we don't love the truth we will fall for lies.

AGTG,

Here are the lyrics from a Jesus Culture song:

Rooftops Lyrics
[Metro Lyrics: Jesus Culture Lyrics]

from Come Away
New! Highlight lyrics to add Meanings, Special Memories, and Misheard Lyrics...

Here I am before You, falling in love and seeking Your truth
Knowing that Your perfect grace has brought me to this place
Because of You I freely live, my life to You, oh God, I give
So I stand before You, God
I lift my voice cause You set me free

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours

All the good You've done for me, I lift up my hands for all to see
You're the only one who brings me to my knees
To share this love across the earth, the beauty of Your holy worth
So I kneel before You, God
I lift my hands cause You set me free

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours
All that I am, I place into Your loving hands
And I am Yours, I am Yours

Here I am, I stand, with arms wide open
To the One, the Son, the Everlasting God, the Everlasting God

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours
All that I am, I place into Your loving hands
And I am Yours, I am Yours

Is all OK biblically with these lyrics? Is there anything we should warn people about in this song?

Oz
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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AGTG,

Here are the lyrics from a Jesus Culture song:



Is all OK biblically with these lyrics? Is there anything we should warn people about in this song?

Oz

Are you guys serious? What's wrong with this song? It's Praising God. I would not let my wife listen to ANYTHING that is against the Gospel,

I am quoting TWIN 1954 here:

What separates those who are preaching another gospel and those preaching the truth is that the Gospel is according to the Scriptures as Paul laid out very clearly in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. (1Co 15:1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; (1Co 15:2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. (1Co 15:3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (1Co 15:4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

I asked you many times show me scripturally how these songs are against the Gospel of Jesus Christ, please show me.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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And the Bible speaks about those who are false teachers (Gal 5:7-12; 2 Tim 4:3-4; 1 John 4:1-6; Jude 1:4) and false prophets (Matt 7:15; 24:24; 2 Pet 2:1) who can all be using the Bible. Nevertheless they are false teachers and prophesying falsehood.

They may sound OK but be false. False teaching and false prophesy can find their ways into songs we sing.

In 2013, Christianity Today had an article, 'Reformed Rapper Calls Out 12 Popular Pastors as "False Teachers"'.

Have you read Sandy Simpson's article, 'Worship song rating'?

Oz

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse! Galatians 1:8

This is not another Gospel
 
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AGTG

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AGTG,

Why don't you find one song from 'Jesus Culture' that has lyrics that are promoting false theology so that we can discuss the biblical content of this song?

Oz

The point of my warning goes beyond their message. Jesus' point in warning about the intent of the heart of the ministers is that they can actually bring a message that is Biblically sound, but once they have drawn you into a measure of submission they can abuse their authority over you.
 
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PrettyboyAndy

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If it's not clearly found in the Bible, it should be regarded as error and discarded.

Paul warned the Galatians about witchcraft when he found they were embracing the error of legalism:

Galatians 3:1
Oh you foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?

The word "bewitch" is the Greek word baskanos. It is Strong's word #940:

940 baskaínō (from baskanos, "to cast an evil spell, wishing injury upon someone; to bewitch") – properly, to exercise evil power over someone, like putting them under a spell; (used only in Gal 3:1); (figuratively) captivate ("be spellbinding"), appealing to someone's vanity and selfishness; "to blight by the evil eye, bewitch" (Abbott-Smith).

[In classical Greek, Aristotle used 940 (baskaínō) for "bewitching through the use of an evil power." That is, putting someone under a spell so they no longer could think (act) according to reason. 940 (baskaínō) is also associated with envy (so Josephus V:425; Demosthenes 20,24; Theocr. 5,13, ala Abbott-Smith).][/QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



AGTG,

Your not answering my question, from the 1st time you posted till now.

You Quoted:
I will quote you here again:

For example, a stable Biblically sound mainstream evangelical church can begin to use Jesus Culture songs in their praise and worship to appeal to young people (a seemingly harmless thing to do). This kind of decision, however, puts the people in that church under a measure of influence of the ministry of Bethel Church. You can bet Bethel is praying over their ministries, and you can bet those prayers are manipulative and unleash foul spiritual forces against those who carelessly come under their influence.

Pretty soon, the young people who grew up stable in the faith begin to look into Jesus Culture and buy their music, submitting at an even greater level. As they open themselves up to such influences, they are drawn deeper and deeper into the snares of their control. Before long, they are buying the books put out by these ministries which are not grounded in Biblical truth, but are born of demonic deception. If one is not careful, they may end up attending a school of ministry.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Questions for you:
1) How can you say that Bethel/These songs are purposely praying manipulative prayers that unleash foul spiritual forces against those that listen to their music/that are under their influence? Are you Omniscient?

2) How is the books/music they produce born from demonic deception?

3) a. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse! Galatians 1:8
3) b. Pursuant to scripture, is Bethel's music preaching another gospel other then the Gospel of Christ Jesus?

Please answer this, you made very serious accusations, your dividing the body of Christ because they are slightly different then you.

Ephesians 4- There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.
 
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OzSpen

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Are you guys serious? What's wrong with this song? It's Praising God. I would not let my wife listen to ANYTHING that is against the Gospel,

I am quoting TWIN 1954 here:

What separates those who are preaching another gospel and those preaching the truth is that the Gospel is according to the Scriptures as Paul laid out very clearly in 1 Cor. 15:1-4. (1Co 15:1) Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; (1Co 15:2) By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. (1Co 15:3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (1Co 15:4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

I asked you many times show me scripturally how these songs are against the Gospel of Jesus Christ, please show me.

What's wrong with this song? Do you mean to say you can't see it? Can't you see the me-centeredness in this song? Let's look again at it and I'll highlight in bold the ego-centric emphasis:
Here I am before You, falling in love and seeking Your truth
Knowing that Your perfect grace has brought me to this place
Because of You I freely live, my life to You, oh God, I give
So I stand before You, God
I lift my voice cause You set me free

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours

All the good You've done for me, I lift up my hands for all to see
You're the only one who brings me to my knees
To share this love across the earth, the beauty of Your holy worth
So I kneel before You, God
I lift my hands cause You set me free

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours
All that I am, I place into Your loving hands
And I am Yours, I am Yours

Here I am, I stand, with arms wide open
To the One, the Son, the Everlasting God, the Everlasting God

So I shout out Your name, from the rooftops I proclaim
That I am Yours, I am Yours
All that I am, I place into Your loving hands
And I am Yours, I am Yours

This is a me-centered song that wants to tell God who I am: 'I am Yours, I am Yours', etc. This song misses the greatness of the Lord God whom we serve and praise. Exalt Him; laud His praise.

This song leaves me flat because the theocentric emphasis is not there. From what you say in your post, that doesn't seem to bother you.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse! Galatians 1:8

This is not another Gospel

That's a red herring fallacy of a reply because you did not address the verses I raised about false teachers and false prophets.
 
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The point of my warning goes beyond their message. Jesus' point in warning about the intent of the heart of the ministers is that they can actually bring a message that is Biblically sound, but once they have drawn you into a measure of submission they can abuse their authority over you.

There are those who have investigated the Bethel Church, Redding CA and called it a 'cult' because of these control issues. See HERE.
 
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twin1954

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That's a red herring fallacy of a reply because you did not address the verses I raised about false teachers and false prophets.
No it isn't. You have a penchant for calling things a fallacy when you can't argue against the points made.

He gave you an answer. He has asked several times for someone to show him how this man is a false prophet and has received no answer. Perhaps when you can answer his questions he might deal with your use of the Scriptures.

BTW I believe the preacher this thread is concerned about to be a false prophet as well. Still I see nothing Scripturally wrong with the songs quoted here. I dislike how they speak about how much they love God, we none love Him as we ought and our love for Him is nothing to shout about.

As far as the elect are concerned I do not worry about them being ruled by demons or Satan they are protected by Christ. As for the non-elect they are eventually going to end up in the same destruction as the devils.

I am aware of demonic forces who seek to infest churches and we ought to heed Paul's warning in 2Cor. 11:13-15.

(2Co 11:13) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.


(2Co 11:14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.


(2Co 11:15) Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


We are to be as the Bereans and make sure that any man we hear is speaking by the Spirit of God according to the Scriptures.
 
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AGTG

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AGTG,

It's impossible to read any document, whether the local newspaper, Shakespeare, John Calvin's Institutes, or Scripture without making interpretations. With Scripture being a translated language into English, there are many reasons why what is stated needs to be interpreted grammatically and in context.

If I use incorrect Greek grammar (I read and teach NT Greek) for the NT, I'll arrive at incorrect interpretations.

It's a misnomer to say that Christians should not embrace 'interpretations' and that there are clear truths in Scripture that is uninterpreted. Truth is obtained by correctly interpreting Scripture with grammatical, historical and cultural tools and context.

Oz

Perhaps calling anything that is not completely clear by scriptural standard error is not fair, but it should not be called truth as it has not met the standard of truth.

Moreover, I think it's really clear the modern church movements have lowered the bar so much doctrinally, no one scrutinizes anything.

Jesus said to beware of the leaven of the pharisees in reference to their teachings. Why? Because some of it may have been accurate, but some of it was false.

The modern church movement says, "Eat the meat and spit out the bone."

But Jesus didn't teach about eating buffalo wings! He used the metaphor of leaven in bread because it's impossible to take a slice of bread and eat around the leaven. The leaven permeates the whole loaf, and so ministries willing to mix truth with error should be avoided.
 
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twin1954

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Perhaps calling anything that is not completely clear by scriptural standard error is not fair, but it should not be called truth as it has not met the standard of truth.

Moreover, I think it's really clear the modern church movements have lowered the bar so much doctrinally, no one scrutinizes anything.

Jesus said to beware of the leaven of the pharisees in reference to their teachings. Why? Because some of it may have been accurate, but some of it was false.

The modern church movement says, "Eat the meat and spit out the bone."

But Jesus didn't teach about eating buffalo wings! He used the metaphor of leaven in bread because it's impossible to take a slice of bread and eat around the leaven. The leaven permeates the whole loaf, and so ministries willing to mix truth with error should be avoided.
I wholeheartedly agree.
 
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