Are you saved?

[Romulas 1XI0]

They are real choices. That's is the problem. The unregenerate can physically choose to trust in Christ. ....

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What ? Absolutely wrong. How can the unregenerate choose against his evil nature as has been expounded so much.

No then they are not real choices. Just like a drug addict. He might harbor a notion to quit but the addiction means he has no real choice but to carry on.

 

[Hammster]

What ? Absolutely wrong. How can the unregenerate choose against his evil nature as has been expounded so much.

His ability to chose against his nature does not make the choice unreal.

No then they are not real choices. Just like a drug addict. He might harbor a notion to quit but the addiction means he has no real choice but to carry on.

But the choice is still real.

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[Skala]

Romans 1:20: For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Seeing proof of a creator is not the same as hearing the gospel message.

You can't get saved by knowing a creator exists. You have to hear the gospel and believe it. Theism is not the same as salvation, or else all religious people who believe that 'a god exists' would be saved. Why would you quote that verse unless you believed this?

 

[Skala]

What ? Absolutely wrong. How can the unregenerate choose against his evil nature as has been expounded so much.

No then they are not real choices. Just like a drug addict. He might harbor a notion to quit but the addiction means he has no real choice but to carry on.

You misunderstood Ham's point when he said "physical" ability to trust in Christ.

When we speak of unregenerate people, it's not that they lack some sort of physical or mental ability to choose Christ. They have a will. They have the ability to use the will to choose Christ.

But they are morally inclined against Christ. A person's will only chooses what it desires at the moment of choice. Since a n unregenerate person is never inclined towards Christ (apart from God's regenerating them), they will never choose Christ. They won't choose him because they will never desire him, because they are never inclined towards him. As the Bible says they are "hostile" to Christ and "haters of God", and "find the gospel foolishness"

So their inability is not rooted in some natural flaw, but a spiritual and moral flaw. And it's their own fault.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Where did it say than in that verse?

Has God ever asked us to breathe air ever?

 

[Hammster]

Has God ever asked us to breathe air ever?

What does that have to do with the verse you quoted? I need a context for the question.

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[greatdivide46]

So are you saying that God CAN lie, but that He won't?

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Well, when you put it that way, maybe not.

 

[JoeyArnold]

What does that have to do with the verse you quoted?

When I asked you if God ever commands us to breathe air. You decided not to answer. See, God didn't exactly command us to breathe air because that is too obvious. There is not much of a choice in that.

 

[Hammster]

When I asked you if God ever commands us to breathe air. You decided not to answer. See, God didn't exactly command us to breathe air because that is too obvious. There is not much of a choice in that.

It's not that I decided not to answer. It's that you asked it after I responded to your post where you quoted from Proverbs. I'm trying to determine the connection.

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[JoeyArnold]

It's not that I decided not to answer. It's that you asked it after I responded to your post where you quoted from Proverbs. I'm trying to determine the connection.

Historically when God commands people have met Him with mixed reactions.

 

[Hammster]

Historically when God commands people have met Him with mixed reactions.

I still don't see the connection between the verse quoted and the question asked.

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[JoeyArnold]

I still don't see the connection between the verse quoted and the question asked.

Remember that when Moses asked Pharaoh, he said no until the very end.

 

[greatdivide46]

Originally posted by Skala

What you really need to do is prove your belief from scripture. You must prove that scripture allows for the power of contrary choice. And I must do the same for my view. Then we'll see who has better scripture support, right?

OK. Only the concept of a truly free will can do justice to the many passages that picture God's blessings and punishments as conditioned upon human choices (see Deuteronomy 11:26-28 for example). There are many other verses, too numerous to list that illustrate this.

The reality of a free will presupposes the reality of sin and evil in general. One reason why determinist doctrines have been challenged so forcefully is that they negate the reality of moral responsbility. If the natural man cannot choose not to sin then he cannot be held responsible for his sin. Without free will one cannot be praised for his good choices, or be held responsible for his wrong choices, because he really had no choice but to follow the inclinations of his nature. When people are really free to put their choices into action whether right or wrong can they be held responsible for their choices and be justly blessed or condemned.

 

[Hammster]

Remember that when Moses asked Pharaoh, he said no until the very end.

And what does THIS have to do with Proverbs 3 and breathing?

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[JoeyArnold]

If the natural man cannot choose not to sin then he cannot be held responsible for his sin.

Agreed. If the natural man cannot choose not to sin then he cannot be held responsible for his sin.

 

[JoeyArnold]

And what does THIS have to do with Proverbs 3 and breathing?

Pharaoh first would say no but then he said yes.

 

[Hammster]

Pharaoh first would say no but then he said yes.

And how does that answer my question?

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[JoeyArnold]

And how does that answer my question?

When you ask about relevance it reminds me of when a defendant in a court of law says that to a judge. It distracts from what I am trying to say.

 

[Hammster]

When you ask about relevance it reminds me of when a defendant in a court of law says that to a judge. It distracts from what I am trying to say.

Then say what your trying to say. This all started with you quoting proverbs 3 in relation to God offing salvation. Please, connect the dots.

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[Hammster]

Agreed. If the natural man cannot choose not to sin then he cannot be held responsible for his sin.

Yes, he can. That's why there are people in hell.

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