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Featured ARE YOU READY FOR THE MARK OF THE BEAST?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by LoveGodsWord, Oct 28, 2018.

  1. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    If you use that sort of logic then take away the Anti, and christ means
    anything or anyone who follows God's Word.

    Your definition for the Antichrist is wrong.

    It is only ONE person in Isaiah 14:18-19 who will be in hell, then his soul cast out, who is that person.

    The Antichrist will be one single person - who will fulfill that one of a kind role.

    How many "the" Christ - do you believe there are?
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
  2. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    God has many names in the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT scripture and cannot be confined to a single name. If JESUS is the living WORD of GOD as shown in *JOHN 1:1-3;14, how can you say that according to this definition that the scriptures have provided

    "If this is true, Christ means anything or anyone that follows God's Word"?

    That does not really make much sense brother and is not what the scriptures are saying at all. Regarding the Antichrist please read the following and the linked sections in the OP for a detailed scripture response.

    1 JOHN 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour: and as ye heard that antichrist cometh, even now have there arisen many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last hour.

    *Detailed scriptures support is provided here on the ANTICHRIST click me.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother however we may need to agree to disagree on this one. I hope you can look at the scriptures provided here.

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
     
  3. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    Individual Jews and Gentiles may partake of the New Covenant by simply following the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I do believe we are the same HERE>>Right?????

    However, Israel as a Nation is still Blinded and will be until the Rapture of Jesus' Bride. At the half-way point of Daniel's 70th Week, The remnant of Israel; (Rem, only 1/3 of the population of Israel will live to reach the Millennium), those that flee Jerusalem to Petra will be given the New Covenant directly to their Hearts. They will live in Jerusalem during the millennium. They will have children and will still have their mortal bodies. I am not saying this without scripture backup and if you wish, we can discuss it a little deeper. However, If you are not likely to believe anything I show you (God's Word), there is not use to begin.

    Your choice.

    Blade


    ]
     
  4. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello brother Bladerunner,

    Nice to see you again. For me I think I would be more likely to believe you if you can show what it is in the OP you disagree with and why and provide scripture for your belief. For me Daniel and Revelation are go together in outlining end day events. So happy to discuss the book of Daniel as well as you have outlined in your post above. I do have some problems with what you have stated in this post however. for example;

    Q1. You do know that the timeline for the 70 weeks of Daniel begins at the going forth to rebuild Jerusalem *DANIEL 9:24-27?

    Q2. Could you please show how your statement above fulfills the timeline of DANIEL 9:24-27?

    Can you start by answering these questions in this post?

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
     
  5. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    If you will bare with me I will explain with scripture that is accepted by many scholars throughout. I will try to do one question at a time as one needs to understand from the beginning else it is easy to get lost. I will tell you I am reading it literally, Historically and Grammatically just in case you have not recognized it already..LOL.

    Let's start with Daniel 9:20. Daniel is praying to GOD when in verse 20 we see the Angel Gabriel interrupting Daniel at about the time of the 'Evening Oblation' (time period around 270 BC). Now the evening oblation was at the temple in Jerusalem, yet Jerusalem and the temple was no longer there as during the 70 years of Captivity of the Babylon Empire, it had been destroyed. (Daniel chapters 2-5). Daniel knew that the 70 years of captivity was about up for he had read Jeremiah 25:11–12. God tells Daniel through Jeremiah 29:10.......

    A summary of Daniel's 9:24 was given to Him by Gabriel. "The Idiom “week” of years was common in Israel as a “sabbath for the land,” in which the land was to lie fallow every seventh year
    "{1}.(Leviticus 25:1–22; 26:3–35; Deuteronomy 15.). Thus 70 Weeks = 70 Years.

    Ask yourself if the following have been fulfilled todate for both Israel and Gentiles (the world)?
    1. To finish Transgressions(wrongdoing)?
    2. to make an end of sins?
    3.to make reconciliation for iniquity (atonement for sins)?
    4. to bring in everlasting righteousness ?
    5.to seal up the vision and prophecy?
    6.to anoint the most Holy Place?

    In Daniel's time none of the above were fulfilled. Todate, Only One has been fulfilled. TODAY's time finds only 1 of the 6 that can be argued as fulfilled. This is the Death, burial and resurrection of Christ. (3. to make reconciliation for iniquity).

    Daniel 9:25.."Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times."


    The order (4th order) finally given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C. (Notice that the "....the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times" as this has been deleted is previous commands. The temple could not get built because of warring factions in the area. Nehhemiah got the final commandment in chapter 2:13.

    "unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:" The seven weeks is most likely the time it took to rebuild Jerusalem from the Commandment mentioned earlier. Of course 3 score and two weeks is 62 weeks. Therefore 69 weeks of years times 360 days per year = 173,880 days. From the date of March 14, 445 B.C. (mentioned above), 173,880 days calculates to be the EXACT DAY Jesus rode into Jerusalem on that donkey. The exact day was April 6, 32AD.

    This leaves ONE week that has yet to be fulfilled. I will explain this in another post. If you have any question on this post, let me know...an I will try to answer them before I post events leading up to the final week, Daniel 9:26 and 9:27.


    Q2. Could you please show how your statement above fulfills the timeline of DANIEL 9:24-27? This question(s) answered in a following post.

    Can you start by answering these questions in this post?

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.[/QUOTE]

    May God be with you today and always!

    Blade

    {1}..Koinonia House, Daniel's 70th week
     
  6. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello brother Bladerunner, nice to see you again. Thanks for your post and sharing your thoughts. It is ok brother take your time no hurry although to be honest here I am not sure what is the problem as the scriptures state as highlighted in my previous post that God's WORD already provides us with the start of the timeline in DANIEL 9:25 which says Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. The command to restore and build Jerusalem can be found in EZRA 7:1-27 this gives us a starting date of 457 BC.


    Brother your timeline is out. The start of the 70 weeks in DANIEL 9 is given in DANIEL 9:25 which says Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. The command to restore and build Jerusalem can be found in EZRA 7:1-27 this gives us a starting date of 457 BC.


    Brother there is a few things wrong with this interpretation here that we can view through the scriptures. Let's have a look.


    Firstly the time line of the 70 weeks starts at the commandment to restore and re-build Jerusalem. This was yet future from Daniels perspective as he and his people were still held in captivity.

    Secondly, it is not 70 years it is 70 weeks. In bible prophecy God's WORD says that 1 day = 1 year *EZRA 4:6. So 70 weeks from DANIEL 9:24 is actually 70 x 7 (7 days in one week) = 490 days = 490 years which DANIEL 9:25 says starts at the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem which was 457 BC. So now we have the time line and when that timeline starts all from the scriptures alone. Can you see here this is not of any private interpretation and is only God's WORD?


    Yes I am happy to share the timeline from the scriptures latter. Keep in mind here as well that the scripture says.


    DANIEL 9:24 [24], Seventy weeks are determined on your people (this was not talking about the gentiles here) and on your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. This was a conditional prophecy of judgment and points to the abomination of desolation in *DANIEL 9:24-27 that Jesus talks about in *MATTHEW 24:15


    Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother. I was wondering if you have considered these scriptures below showing this timeline? You are close but out by a few years. I think this may be because there is more than one decree given in EZRA but it is the decree shown in EZRA 7 that is the correct one and matches all the prophecy as outlined in DANIEL 9:24-27.

    Lets have a quick look at what these scriptures starting with those of DANIEL 9

    DANIEL 9:24-27
    [24], Seventy weeks are determined on your people and on your holy city (not the Gnetiles), to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    NOTE: As shown previously SEVENTY WEEKS with 1 day = 1 year *EZRA 4:6 = 490 years. The starting point is from the going forth to rebuid JERUSALEM *EZRA 7:1-27 = 457 BC

    [25], Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    NOTE: The SEVENTY WEEKS is to the MESSIAH the prince is SEVEN WEEKS and SIXTY TWO (score =20) = 69 WEEKS = 27 AD. So according to DANIEL 9:25 at the end of the 69 th WEEK reaches to the MESSIAH. Starting from 457 BC from the command to restore and rebuild JERUSALEM as found in EZRA 7:1-27 did this reach to the MESSIAH? ABSOLUTELY! AD 27 was the exact date that JESUS was BAPTISED and began his MINISTRY of preaching the Gospel of the KINGDOM *DANIEL 9:25; LUKE 3:21-22 and in MARK after JESUS Baptism we read..

    MARK 1:9-15
    [9], And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
    [10], And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending on him:
    [11], And there came a voice from heaven, saying, You are my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
    [12], And immediately the spirit drives him into the wilderness.
    [13], And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to him.
    [14], Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
    [15], And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.

    The time fulfilled here is that of the prophecy of DANIEL 9:25 of the 69th week reaching to the Messaih. But there is more let's read on...

    [26], And after three score and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the ruler that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and to the end of the war desolations are determined.

    [27], And he (JESUS) shall confirm the covenant (NEW COVENANT) with many for one week (7 YEARS or the 70th WEEK which is the completion of the timeline and judgment on God's people the nation of ISRAEL): and in the middle of the week (3 and a half years) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured on the desolate.

    NOTE: This three and a half years where the Messiah was to be vut off and cause the sacrifices to cease brings us to AD 31. This is the exact day that JESUS was crucified. This leads us into the the judgment of the JEWS in DANIEL 9:24-27 and the abomination of desolation as spoken of by JESUS in *MATTHEW 24:15. Perhaps we can save this one for another time

    * So brother your timeline is close but out a bit as the scriptures show that the end of the 69 weeks leads us to the MESSIAH your interpretation leads you to near the Close of the Messiah's ministry where DANIEL 9:25 says it brings us to the beginning of the Messiahs ministry. Further confirmation by JESUS as to this time is given in MARK 1:9-15 where JESUS states after his BAPTISM the time is fulfilled which is a fulfillment of DANIEL 9:25.

    .....................

    * So brother in summary can you see that by answering question 1 asked of you that you have shown that your timelines are out? If your timelines are out then so is your interpretation of the prophecies of DANIEL 9:24-27

    .....................

    Hope this helps brother and thanks for sharing your thoughts. Are you interested in looking at the rest of the timeline and the abomination of deolation as discussed by JESUS in MATTHEW 24:15 and DANIEL 9:24-27?

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  7. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    There were four decrees beginning with Sirus, The Persian General. Nehemiah was the fourth decree and the one that built the walls and streets. As we see in Eza 4:6-23. what can I say, it is in the scripture. somebody has told you wrong my friend. Esra was also around 10-15 years early.



    Yes and some 10-15 years later 445BC, Nehemiah got the order to rebuild the city streets and walls as well.



    Yes, at the time Daniel was getting this information from Gabriel, they were still in captivity. However, Sirus, the Persian General conquered (without destroying it ) Babylon and after Daniel Showed him (Sirus) the letter from GOD enlisting Him to let His people GO. God in this 150 letter called Sirus by Name. Thus the first Decree to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple.




    Yes, you are right,my bad... 7 weeks of years were 1 week = 7 years. therefore 70 weeks *7 years each is like you said 490 total years. But it is only 69 (7 +62) Weeks until the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem which was 457 BC. or 69 weeks * 7 years.wk=483 years or 483 yrs * 360 Days per year = 173,880 days or from March 14,445 BC to April 6, 32 AD. You can calculated it out easily enough.

    It appears we both had it wrong the first time... lol.... Rem all you had was 62 + 7 weeks of years until Jesus road into the city of Jerusalem.



    The summary (Dan 9:24) is the objectives the verses 25,26 and 27 are to accomplish in the coming years. None of them at that time were fulfilled. Today we have one of them fulfilled at least partially. Jesus Died on the Cross thus making reconciliation for inequity.

    In Matthew 24:15, Jesus is referring to Daniel as there are scholars that will deny that Daniel even wrote this book. In the Talmudic religion, Daniel chapter 9 is Banned from reading. Look at the Next verse 16.."Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" This speaks of everyone in Judea, the area around Jerusalem, to FLEE to the MTNS. when they SEE the AoD happen. This did not happen in 70 AD and has not happened yet! It will happen at the beginning of the Midpoint of Daniel's 70th week.



    [/QUOTE]

    I will be answering the rest of these question in the next post.On Daniel 9: 26,27

    Have a good evening.

    Blade
     
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  8. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello brother Bladerunner, nice to see you again. Some comments for your consideration below.


    There were indeed more than one decree to do with the freeing of the JEWS and the restoration of JERUSALEM. This is what I was sharing with you earlier. The question remains which is the correct decree to start the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27?


    Let's look at the scripture brother in detail to determine which is the right one and let God's WORD be the judge here. The date of EZRA is not relevant here it is the date in Ezra to restore and rebuild Jerusalem that is relevant and this is what we will look at and show why it is the correct date.

    Please be patient and read what follows and by God's grace we will look at the scriptures and show why your interpretation is not correct here as the answer to show this is actually quite simple.

    DANIEL 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    NOTE: It is the going forth of the COMMANDMENT to RESTORE AND BUILD THE CITY OF JERUSALEM that determines the right decree.

    In Ezra several as shown earlier there are different decrees concerning the exiles and Jerusalem. The correct one that we are after is the one that is to RESTORE AND RE-BUILD the CITY OF JERUSALEM.

    Here is a list of the scripture references with the different decrees. We find a decree from Cyrus in 538 B.C. (Ezra 1:1-4; cf Isa 45:1), the Decree of Darius in 520 B.C. (Ezra 6:1-12), the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. (7:12-26), and even an authorization given to
    Nehemiah to rebuild the wall of Jerusalem in 444 B.C. (Nehemiah 1).
    Which one of these decrees is the fulfillment of Daniel 9:25?

    Let us look briefly at each one of them.

    First decree not correct

    The decree issued by Cyrus in 537 B.C. is considered by some to be the one prophesied not just by Daniel but particularly by Isaiah. The prophet stated,

    ISAIAH 44:28: Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and he shall fulfill all my purpose’;
    saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be
    laid.’ 45:13: He [Cyrus] shall build my city and set my exiles free, Not for price or reward.

    According to these passages Cyrus was (1) to rebuild the city, and (2) to set the exiles free to go to Jerusalem. Isaiah uses the verb banah, “to build,” employed also by Daniel, but not the verb shûb, “restore.” In its place we find the verb shalach, “to send, let go free.” This is somewhat different from what we have in Daniel and, more important, quite different from its presumed fulfillment recorded in Ezra 1:2-4.

    There we find the following summary of Cyrus’ decree: “This is what Cyrus king of Persia says: The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Anyone of his people among you—may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the Lord, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem. And the people of
    any place where survivors may now be living are to provide him with silver and gold,
    with goods and livestock, and with freewill offerings for the temple of God in Jerusa-
    lem.


    This decree is in some ways in agreement with Isaiah but there are some differences.
    (1) It makes clear that God appointed Cyrus to act on behalf of Israel;
    (2) a building project is authorized;
    (3) exiles are authorized to return to Jerusalem; and
    (4)provisions for the building project were made.

    There is one important difference between this decree and the Isaianic passage: What is built is not the city but only the temple. The decree of Cyrus recorded in Ezra 1:2-4
    does not meet the requirements stipulated by Daniel’s prophecy because it allows only for the rebuilding of the temple and does not address the restoration and rebuilding of Jerusalem.

    Second decree not correct

    The second decree is the one by Darius in 520 B.C. According to Ezra 5, Zerubbabel and Joshua, under the influence of the prophets Haggai and Zechariah, reinitiated the project of rebuilding the temple several years after it was stopped. When Tatnai, governor of the province, saw the building activities, he questioned the legal basis for what they were doing and wrote a letter to Darius asking him to verify the information he had obtained from the Jews in Jerusalem. An investigation was made and the decree of Cyrus was found.
    Consequently, Darius issued another decree confirming the first one (Ezra 6:3-12). The decree of Darius is not significantly different from Cyrus’ edict. The only important difference is that the king ordered Tatnai not to interfere with the project of rebuild-
    ing the temple
    and to impale anyone who would oppose it.

    The second decree of Darius recorded in Ezra 6:3-12 does not meet the requirements stipulated by Daniel’s prophecy because it allows only for the rebuilding of the temple from the first decree of Cyrus and does not address the restoration and rebuilding of Jerusalem.

    Third decree is the correct one

    The third decree is the one of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. recorded in Ezra 7:12-26. This decree is significantly different from the previous ones partially because by then the temple had been finished. The decree of Artaxerxes included several important elements:

    (1) Granted permission to the exiles to return to Jerusalem,
    (2) funds were assigned for the support of the temple in Jerusalem,
    (3) temple and temple personnel were tax exempted,
    (4) Ezra was to investigate the condition of the people in Judah, possibly in order to bring their lives into agreement with the Mosaic law, and
    (5) it established a legal system based on the Torah for all

    The decree of Artaxerxes, recorded in Ezra 7, was comprehensive enough to permit the rebuilding of Jerusalem. In fact, the rebuilding of the city is implicit in the authorization to set up a judicial system at a central place based on the law of God. But in addition we do find clear evidence in Ezra and Nehemiah to the effect that Ezra was authorized to rebuild the city. The first line of evidence is found in Nehemiah

    However, perhaps the strongest argument of all is that when we calculate the Daniel 9 prophecy using the date of this decree, 457 B.C., as marking its beginning, the prophecy reaches exactly to the baptism or annointing of Jesus by the Holy Spirit to begin his ministry in 27 AD. Where Jesus says in his own words after his baptism

    MARK 1:15 [15], And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.

    In fact, Daniel 9:24 suggests that the events that take place within the 70 weeks set God's seal of approval on the whole of the prophecy. They show that the prophecy was divinely given, and thus absolutely dependable. And no other date even begins to satisfy the demands of this prophecy.


    This line of reasoning falls apart as it overlooks the fact that the decree had to include the restoration and the rebuilding of the city not just the walls. The “decree” of 444 B.C. deals only with the walls. But more important, the permission given to Nehemiah is nowhere called a “decree.” as it is in EZRA 7:1-27. The permission given to him to rebuild the city was supplementary to the decree given toEzra, an extension of that one.

    No problem brother happy to help and glad you could see your mistake here. However, no what I posted was not wrong. The 69 weeks or 483 years (a day for a year) that was being posted earlier was in reference to the begining or the annointing of the Messaiah from DANIEL 9:25 which says; Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks (69 weeks to the Messiah or annointed one): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


    This was posted to show that the 457 BC start date in EZRA 7 works out perfectly to the baptism of JESUS by the Holy SPIRIT and the beginning of his ministry from 27 AD to where JESUS says in his own words after his baptism...

    MARK 1:15 [15], And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.

    Brother can you see how the timeline fits perfectly here from 457 BC?

    Hope this is helpful. :wave:


    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  9. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    Q2. Could you please show how your statement above fulfills the timeline of DANIEL 9:24-27?

    Daniel 26-27

    Daniel 9:26..."And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."



    Good evening LoveGodsWord; I will do this in two parts in this post. verse 26 first....

    Of course we know now that the seven (7) + threescore and two weeks (69) from the fourth decree to rebuild the walls, streets and the temple until Jesus arrives that faithful day at Jerusalem on that Donkey.

    As Jesus Approached the city on that Donkey he said: Luke 19:43-44..."For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."

    In verse 26 we see the two first words "And AFTER 62 weeks shall be the Messiah CUT OFF" (Killed). Here we get an idea of how long it took to rebuild Jerusalem. The seven years are no longer in play but the REMAINING 62 weeks are! The time frame is the same and has not change but the first two words tell us that Jesus will Die after he arrives (in hindsight 100%) at Jerusalem.

    The next line is also a prophecy telling us WHO his DYING FOR! "but not for himself:"..'US'

    The next part of verse 26 "and the people of the prince that shall come" First of all WHO is the Prince that Shall come? It is not Jesus for He is the Messiah. It will be the Man who will destroy Jerusalem and in this case, hindsight shows us he is
    (General Titus Vespasian). Now the Question is WHO ARE HIS PEOPLE?

    The Roman empire was split into two parts, one being western and the other eastern. Their soldiers were not all from ROME as one might suspect. Instead, the people in the area could sign into the Roman army (signing for 20 years) and become a Roman citizen afterwards with all the benefits.

    Thus, the Eastern Roman Soldiers (except most of the high command) were from the area that was originally known as Assyria. It is another story of how the Son of a Roman General (Titus Flavius Vespasianus) became a PRINCE?

    The next part of Verse 26:...".shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

    The city being Jerusalem and the temple. The Israeli Jews had rebelled against Rome which is why the Roman Army was there to start with. It was by overwhelming odds, the soldiers of the Roman Army took over the city. It was said by Josephus (the wars of the Jews), The Jews within the city set fires throughout and also did so to the temple in efforts to keep the Roman army from getting anything. This made the Roman commander mad and Titus commanded his troops set the remaining fires that completely destroyed the city and the Temple. We see the prophecy by Jesus in Matt 24:2.."And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

    the four disciples that were with Jesus at the time were showing Him the Still standing temple. He said: "There shall not be left here one stone upon another", was fulfilled during this time. The Temple while burning from being set by the Jewish people, Titus set the remaining parts of the temple and it all went up in smoke.

    The reason for the stones not left undone (moved) is because the Roman Army moved every stone to get at the GOLD (adorned the temple in gold) that Had melted and run down between the stones!

    Because of this burning of the temple prior to the armies arrival and afterward, there was no, nor could their be a AoD at this time in History.

    NOTE: the timeline for the destruction of the Jerusalem was 38 years from its prophecy. This was the same amount of time spent in the Wilderness. Now, I don't know what you can do with that, but there it is?

    I might add that it is said that not one Christian was killed during this war as they believed in the prophecy of Jesus Christ, thus left the city and surrounding area when the Roman Army encompassed the entire city. HOW did they get out is another study?

    ************************************

    Before I go any further, I would like to say that there is a PAUSE, an UNKNOWN INTERVAL between Daniel 9: Verses 26 and verse 27. This internal has lasted some 1900+ years.

    Daniel 9:27..."And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

    Right of the bat we hit a road block for many. "AND HE"---Who is HE. there are some scholars that will tell you that this refers to the "Messiah" however when we look at the writings of the original greek, we find that HE is the Antecedent (preceding in time or order;) of "And He" which will be the "the prince that shall come" from Verse 26. Yes, it is somewhat confusing as in verse 26 we speak of a Prince to come to destroy a city and in Verse 27, we speak of HE-- a prince to come that will in all essence be the Antichrist and confirm the covenant with Israel.

    "shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:" One week = 7 years.; confirm (enforce) a Covenant with MANY. Who are the Many... This refers to Israel as a nation. Their leaders have made a decision most likely to rebuild the 3rd temple. We can see a little more about the WHY in Isaiah 28:14-18

    We see in verse 14; the leaders of Jerusalem are the ones in question.

    In Verse 15; The covenant is between them ( the Many) and 'Death and HELL' (Rev 6:8). we can see they are saying they are hidden from the army approaching them referring back to the enforcement by the antichrist.

    In verse 16-18; The Lord tells them in no uncertain terms that the Covenant will not hold and they will be Trodden down (killed) by the very scrourge tht past them over earlier.

    "and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, " Midst (middle) of the Week (3.5 years) HE (antichrist).

    The Sacrifice and Oblation that is spoken of is in the newly rebuilt temple. They the Talmudic Jews feel that if they sacrifice to GOD, He will send the Messiah (remind you of earlier times -32 AD)who will get rid of the scourge upon them. Of course the oblation is in tandem with the sacrifices.

    "and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

    the overspreading of abominations (Idolatry), he shall make it Desolate (everything destroyed) with the promised Consummation (judgements of GOD); which shall be poured upon the Desolate (people).

    Hope this helps. Again this is my belief and why I beliefe. I ask that everyone reading it act according to Acts 17:11.

    Blade


     
  10. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hi brother Bladerunner, we may need to slow down a little as you still have not answered the first question as shown through the scriptures in post # 426 linked and post # 428 linked which both show that your answer to question one is not correct so is not the correct starting point for the prophecies of DANIEL 9:24-27. The linked posts go through the other decrees showing by the scriptures why they are not the correct ones. I hope you can address these posts first before moving on to question 2 as you have not successfully answered the first question.

    God bless.
     
  11. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    You missed the point my friend. there had been 4 decrees to " restore and to build Jerusalem" But you missed the:
    " the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." This was only appropriated in Nehemiah. It was also the correct year that it happened. 445 BC, March 14th to be exact.

    "The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 BC. (The emphasis in the verse on "the street" and "the wall" was to avoid confusion with other earlier mandates confined to rebuilding the Temple.)" ... Koinonia House.."The Triumphal Entry





    First decree not correct

    The decree issued by Cyrus in 537 B.C. is considered by some to be the one prophesied not just by Daniel but particularly by Isaiah. The prophet stated,

    ISAIAH 44:28: Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and he shall fulfill all my purpose’;
    saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be
    laid.’ 45:13: He [Cyrus] shall build my city and set my exiles free, Not for price or reward.

    According to these passages Cyrus was (1) to rebuild the city, and (2) to set the exiles free to go to Jerusalem. Isaiah uses the verb banah, “to build,” employed also by Daniel, but not the verb shûb, “restore.” In its place we find the verb shalach, “to send, let go free.” This is somewhat different from what we have in Daniel and, more important, quite different from its presumed fulfillment recorded in Ezra 1:2-4.

    There we find the following summary of Cyrus’ decree: “This is what Cyrus king of Persia says: The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Anyone of his people among you—may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the Lord, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem. And the people of
    any place where survivors may now be living are to provide him with silver and gold,
    with goods and livestock, and with freewill offerings for the temple of God in Jerusa-
    lem.


    This decree is in some ways in agreement with Isaiah but there are some differences.
    (1) It makes clear that God appointed Cyrus to act on behalf of Israel;
    (2) a building project is authorized;
    (3) exiles are authorized to return to Jerusalem; and
    (4)provisions for the building project were made.

    There is one important difference between this decree and the Isaianic passage: What is built is not the city but only the temple. The decree of Cyrus recorded in Ezra 1:2-4
    does not meet the requirements stipulated by Daniel’s prophecy because it allows only for the rebuilding of the temple and does not address the restoration and rebuilding of Jerusalem.

    Second decree not correct

    The second decree is the one by Darius in 520 B.C. According to Ezra 5, Zerubbabel and Joshua, under the influence of the prophets Haggai and Zechariah, reinitiated the project of rebuilding the temple several years after it was stopped. When Tatnai, governor of the province, saw the building activities, he questioned the legal basis for what they were doing and wrote a letter to Darius asking him to verify the information he had obtained from the Jews in Jerusalem. An investigation was made and the decree of Cyrus was found.
    Consequently, Darius issued another decree confirming the first one (Ezra 6:3-12). The decree of Darius is not significantly different from Cyrus’ edict. The only important difference is that the king ordered Tatnai not to interfere with the project of rebuild-
    ing the temple
    and to impale anyone who would oppose it.

    The second decree of Darius recorded in Ezra 6:3-12 does not meet the requirements stipulated by Daniel’s prophecy because it allows only for the rebuilding of the temple from the first decree of Cyrus and does not address the restoration and rebuilding of Jerusalem.

    Third decree is the correct one

    The third decree is the one of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. recorded in Ezra 7:12-26. This decree is significantly different from the previous ones partially because by then the temple had been finished. The decree of Artaxerxes included several important elements:

    (1) Granted permission to the exiles to return to Jerusalem,
    (2) funds were assigned for the support of the temple in Jerusalem,
    (3) temple and temple personnel were tax exempted,
    (4) Ezra was to investigate the condition of the people in Judah, possibly in order to bring their lives into agreement with the Mosaic law, and
    (5) it established a legal system based on the Torah for all

    The decree of Artaxerxes, recorded in Ezra 7, was comprehensive enough to permit the rebuilding of Jerusalem. In fact, the rebuilding of the city is implicit in the authorization to set up a judicial system at a central place based on the law of God. But in addition we do find clear evidence in Ezra and Nehemiah to the effect that Ezra was authorized to rebuild the city. The first line of evidence is found in Nehemiah

    However, perhaps the strongest argument of all is that when we calculate the Daniel 9 prophecy using the date of this decree, 457 B.C., as marking its beginning, the prophecy reaches exactly to the baptism or annointing of Jesus by the Holy Spirit to begin his ministry in 27 AD. Where Jesus says in his own words after his baptism

    MARK 1:15 [15], And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.

    In fact, Daniel 9:24 suggests that the events that take place within the 70 weeks set God's seal of approval on the whole of the prophecy. They show that the prophecy was divinely given, and thus absolutely dependable. And no other date even begins to satisfy the demands of this prophecy.


    This line of reasoning falls apart as it overlooks the fact that the decree had to include the restoration and the rebuilding of the city not just the walls. The “decree” of 444 B.C. deals only with the walls. But more important, the permission given to Nehemiah is nowhere called a “decree.” as it is in EZRA 7:1-27. The permission given to him to rebuild the city was supplementary to the decree given toEzra, an extension of that one.



    No problem brother happy to help and glad you could see your mistake here. However, no what I posted was not wrong. The 69 weeks or 483 years (a day for a year) that was being posted earlier was in reference to the begining or the annointing of the Messaiah from DANIEL 9:25 which says; Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks (69 weeks to the Messiah or annointed one): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


    This was posted to show that the 457 BC start date in EZRA 7 works out perfectly to the baptism of JESUS by the Holy SPIRIT and the beginning of his ministry from 27 AD to where JESUS says in his own words after his baptism...

    MARK 1:15 [15], And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.

    Brother can you see how the timeline fits perfectly here from 457 BC?

    Hope this is helpful. :wave:


    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word
    [/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  12. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello brother Bladerunner, nice to see you but no brother I have not missed anything as there was only three official decrees given from Cyrus, Darius and Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. The building of the wall in NEHEMIAH was not a decree this was all posted in the previous post.

    Not sure what happened with your post formatting as I went to address the sections on the first, second and third official decrees but noticed it was my own post to you posted earlier showing all the decrees and showing that the building of the wall in Nehemiah was not a decree.

    Anyhow look forward to sharing more with you as you get a chance to respond to my posts. May God bless you brother as you seek him through his Word.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  13. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    The commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was given by Artaxerxes Longimanus on March 14, 445 B.C.

    "Nehemiah served as cupbearer to Artaxerxes I, the son of Ahasuerus (Xerxes), who took Esther to be his queen. Nehemiah's obtaining authorization to rebuild the walls and city of Jerusalem was the very decree that Gabriel had predicted to Daniel 95 years earlier in 539 B.C. This decree was issued on March 14, 445 B.C." (1)

    "One of the by-products of the revival under Ezra seems to have been an ineffective effort on the part of the Jews to rebuild the walls of Jerusalem."(1)

    Need I say More?

    Blade

    (1) Kiononia House,The Books of Ezra and Nehemiah, Exemplary Leadership

     
  14. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Indeed you should brother. An authorization is not a decree and the authorization was only a continuation of the third decree of Ezra. Nehemiah was given the task to continue building the wall and the city. You simply ignored the scriptures provided earlier so yep you need to say more.

    There were indeed more than one decree to do with the freeing of the JEWS and the restoration of JERUSALEM. This is what I was sharing with you earlier. The question remains which is the correct decree to start the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27?

    Let's look at the scripture brother in detail to determine which is the right one and let God's WORD be the judge here. The date of EZRA is not relevant here it is the date in Ezra to restore and rebuild Jerusalem that is relevant and this is what we will look at and show why it is the correct date.

    Please be patient and read what follows and by God's grace we will look at the scriptures and show why your interpretation is not correct here as the answer to show this is actually quite simple.

    DANIEL 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

    NOTE: It is the going forth of the COMMANDMENT to RESTORE AND BUILD THE CITY OF JERUSALEM that determines the right decree.

    In Ezra several as shown earlier there are different decrees concerning the exiles and Jerusalem. The correct one that we are after is the one that is to RESTORE AND RE-BUILD the CITY OF JERUSALEM.

    Here is a list of the scripture references with the different decrees. We find a decree from Cyrus in 538 B.C. (Ezra 1:1-4; cf Isa 45:1), the Decree of Darius in 520 B.C. (Ezra 6:1-12), the decree of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. (7:12-26), and even an authorization given to
    Nehemiah to rebuild the wall of Jerusalem in 444 B.C. (Nehemiah 1).
    Which one of these decrees is the fulfillment of Daniel 9:25?

    Let us look briefly at each one of them.

    First decree not correct

    The decree issued by Cyrus in 537 B.C. is considered by some to be the one prophesied not just by Daniel but particularly by Isaiah. The prophet stated,

    ISAIAH 44:28: Who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and he shall fulfill all my purpose’;
    saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be
    laid.’ 45:13: He [Cyrus] shall build my city and set my exiles free, Not for price or reward.

    According to these passages Cyrus was (1) to rebuild the city, and (2) to set the exiles free to go to Jerusalem. Isaiah uses the verb banah, “to build,” employed also by Daniel, but not the verb shûb, “restore.” In its place we find the verb shalach, “to send, let go free.” This is somewhat different from what we have in Daniel and, more important, quite different from its presumed fulfillment recorded in Ezra 1:2-4.

    There we find the following summary of Cyrus’ decree: “This is what Cyrus king of Persia says: The Lord, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Anyone of his people among you—may his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem in Judah and build the temple of the Lord, the God of Israel, the God who is in Jerusalem. And the people of
    any place where survivors may now be living are to provide him with silver and gold,
    with goods and livestock, and with freewill offerings for the temple of God in Jerusa-
    lem.


    This decree is in some ways in agreement with Isaiah but there are some differences.
    (1) It makes clear that God appointed Cyrus to act on behalf of Israel;
    (2) a building project is authorized;
    (3) exiles are authorized to return to Jerusalem; and
    (4)provisions for the building project were made.

    There is one important difference between this decree and the Isaianic passage: What is built is not the city but only the temple. The decree of Cyrus recorded in Ezra 1:2-4
    does not meet the requirements stipulated by Daniel’s prophecy because it allows only for the rebuilding of the temple and does not address the restoration and rebuilding of Jerusalem.

    Second decree not correct

    The second decree is the one by Darius in 520 B.C. According to Ezra 5, Zerubbabel and Joshua, under the influence of the prophets Haggai and Zechariah, reinitiated the project of rebuilding the temple several years after it was stopped. When Tatnai, governor of the province, saw the building activities, he questioned the legal basis for what they were doing and wrote a letter to Darius asking him to verify the information he had obtained from the Jews in Jerusalem. An investigation was made and the decree of Cyrus was found.
    Consequently, Darius issued another decree confirming the first one (Ezra 6:3-12). The decree of Darius is not significantly different from Cyrus’ edict. The only important difference is that the king ordered Tatnai not to interfere with the project of rebuild-
    ing the temple
    and to impale anyone who would oppose it.

    The second decree of Darius recorded in Ezra 6:3-12 does not meet the requirements stipulated by Daniel’s prophecy because it allows only for the rebuilding of the temple from the first decree of Cyrus and does not address the restoration and rebuilding of Jerusalem.

    Third decree is the correct one

    The third decree is the one of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. recorded in Ezra 7:12-26. This decree is significantly different from the previous ones partially because by then the temple had been finished. The decree of Artaxerxes included several important elements:

    (1) Granted permission to the exiles to return to Jerusalem,
    (2) funds were assigned for the support of the temple in Jerusalem,
    (3) temple and temple personnel were tax exempted,
    (4) Ezra was to investigate the condition of the people in Judah, possibly in order to bring their lives into agreement with the Mosaic law, and
    (5) it established a legal system based on the Torah for all

    The decree of Artaxerxes, recorded in Ezra 7, was comprehensive enough to permit the rebuilding of Jerusalem. In fact, the rebuilding of the city is implicit in the authorization to set up a judicial system at a central place based on the law of God. But in addition we do find clear evidence in Ezra and Nehemiah to the effect that Ezra was authorized to rebuild the city. The first line of evidence is found in Nehemiah

    However, perhaps the strongest argument of all is that when we calculate the Daniel 9 prophecy using the date of this decree, 457 B.C., as marking its beginning, the prophecy reaches exactly to the baptism or annointing of Jesus by the Holy Spirit to begin his ministry in 27 AD. Where Jesus says in his own words after his baptism

    MARK 1:15 [15], And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent you, and believe the gospel.

    In fact, Daniel 9:24 suggests that the events that take place within the 70 weeks set God's seal of approval on the whole of the prophecy. They show that the prophecy was divinely given, and thus absolutely dependable. And no other date even begins to satisfy the demands of this prophecy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2018
  15. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Adding on ...

    Daniel’s prophecy mentioned this decree:

    “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment (also, decree, or word) to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.” — Dan 9:25 KJV

    The Decree of Cyrus

    Some speculate that prophecy by Daniel was referring to the decree of Cyrus; but his decree was an order to rebuild the Temple, and not the city or wall:

    “Thus said Cyrus king of the Persians, The Lord God of heaven has given me all the kingdoms of the earth, and he has given me a charge to build him a house in Jerusalem that is in Judea. Who is there among you of all his people? for his God shall be with him, and he shall go up to Jerusalem that is in Judea, and let him build the house of the God of Israel: he is the God that is in Jerusalem.” — Ezr 1:2-3 LXX

    Temple Work Ceased Under Artaxerxes

    Although there was no mention in the decree of Cyrus to rebuild the city or city wall, the Jews attempted to rebuild them anyway, but were later stopped from all building in the days of (the first) Artaxerxes (Ezra 4:21ff).

    “This is the copy of the letter that they sent unto him, even unto Artaxerxes the king; Thy servants the men on this side the river, and at such a time. Be it known unto the king, that the Jews which came up from thee to us are come unto Jerusalem, building the rebellious and the bad city, and have set up the walls thereof, and joined the foundations. Be it known now unto the king, that, if this city be builded, and the walls set up again, then will they not pay toll, tribute, and custom, and so thou shalt endamage the revenue of the kings . . . Now when the copy of king Artaxerxes’ letter was read before Rehum, and Shimshai the scribe, and their companions, they went up in haste to Jerusalem unto the Jews, and made them to cease by force and power. Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem. So it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia.” — Ezr 4:11-13, 23-24 KJV

    Temple Building Resumed and Completed Under Darius

    As mentioned in the previous passage, the work on the temple was allowed to continue (and be completed) during the reign of Darius:

    “Now therefore, if it seem good to the king, let there be search made in the king’s treasure house, which is there at Babylon, whether it be so, that a decree was made of Cyrus the king to build this house of God at Jerusalem, and let the king send his pleasure to us concerning this matter.” — Ezr 5:17 KJV

    “Then Darius the king made a decree, and search was made in the house of the rolls, where the treasures were laid up in Babylon. And there was found at Achmetha, in the palace that is in the province of the Medes, a roll, and therein was a record thus written . . . Now therefore, Tatnai, governor beyond the river, Shetharboznai, and your companions the Apharsachites, which are beyond the river, be ye far from thence: Let the work of this house of God alone; let the governor of the Jews and the elders of the Jews build this house of God in his place.” — Ezr 6:1-2, 6-7 KJV

    “And this house (of God) was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.” — Ezr 6:15 KJV

    Rebuilding of Jerusalem and City Wall Under Artaxerses

    But it was during the later reign of (the second) Artaxerxes that the rebuilding of the wall and the city were authorized:

    “Now after these things, in the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, Ezra the son of Seraiah, the son of Azariah, the son of Hilkiah . . . This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which the Lord God of Israel had given: and the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of the Lord his God upon him . . . And he came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king.” — Ezr 7:1,6,8 KJV

    “Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the Lord, and of his statutes to Israel. Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time. I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee . . . And I, even I Artaxerxes the king, do make a decree to all the treasurers which are beyond the river, that whatsoever Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, shall require of you, it be done speedily,” — Ezr 7:11-13,21 KJV

    Ezra seemed to interpret that to mean, “rebuild the wall and the city”:

    “For we are slaves, yet in our servitude the Lord our God has not deserted us; and he has extended favour to us in the sight of the kings of the Persians, to give us a quickening, that they should raise up the house of our God, and restore the desolate places of it, and to give us a fence in Juda and Jerusalem.” — Ezr 9:9 LXX

    “For we were bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem.” — Ezr 9:9 KJV

    Completion of Wall Under Nehemiah

    The decree was already given under earlier to rebuild the city in the 3rd decree under Artaxerxes as shown in Ezra 7. The wall was completed later during the days of Nehemiah, after some “troublous times”:

    “That Hanani, one of my brethren, came, he and certain men of Judah; and I asked them concerning the Jews that had escaped, which were left of the captivity, and concerning Jerusalem. And they said unto me, The remnant that are left of the captivity there in the province are in great affliction and reproach: the wall of Jerusalem also is broken down, and the gates thereof are burned with fire.” — Neh 1:2-3 KJV

    “So the wall was finished in the twenty and fifth day of the month Elul, in fifty and two days.” — Neh 6:15 KJV

    “And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the Lord had commanded to Israel.” — Neh 8:1 KJV

    Back to Daniel’s Prophecy

    Daniel’s prophecy seems to indicate it took 49 years to rebuild the wall and the city:

    “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment (also decree, or word) to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.” — Dan 9:25 KJV

    That prophecy also indicates the anointing of Christ occurred at the beginning of the 70th week, or the completion of 483rd year.

    Counting backwards from the approximate date of the anointing of Christ, about 26-28 AD, would make the year of the decree about 455-457 BC.

    The scripture states the decree was issued in the seventh year of Artaxerxes (Ezra 7:7-8), which fits the historically accepted timeline of the reign of Artaxerxes, who came to power about 465 BC.

    Conclusion

    The Decree of Artaxerxes, about 457 BC, is the one mentioned in Daniel 9:25.
     
  16. Bladerunner

    Bladerunner Member Supporter

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    I shown you what most scholars follow including myself follow. I can do no more! Further dialogue is useless as we will have to agree to disagree.

    I thank you for the debate and the kind words, Hope yoi have a Happy Thanksgiving.

    Blade
     
  17. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    Hello brother Bladerunner, nice to see you and thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I do indeed disagree with you as you have not proivided what most scholars follow as the correct starting date for Daniel 9:24-27.

    In summary and closing, what we have discussed and shown on the subject here on Daniel 9:25's starting point is that ...

    1. DANIEL 9:25 is very specific on the starting date which says; Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. So we need to look for the first starting date to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.

    2. There are three DECREES in EZRA and a letter of authorization for Nehemiah to continue building. We find the first decree from Cyrus to re-build the temple only in 538 B.C. (Ezra 1:1-4; cf Isa 45:1). After some time this building had stopped.

    3. Then we find the second decree of Darius in 520 B.C. which was only a continuation of the first decree from Cyrus after looking through the archives to continue to rebuild the temple (Ezra 6:1-12). Both of these decrees are only for the rebuilding of the temple and not the rebuilding and restoration of the city of JERUSALEM so cannot be considered the correct starting point as we are looking for a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. So both of these decrees are not the correct starting point. T

    4. Then we have the third decree of Artaxerxes in 457 B.C. (7:12-26) which is the ONLY decree given to the JEWS allowing them complete autonomy of GOVERNMENT to rebuild the city in troublsome times this work after starting was stopped in troublesome times. Here is the correct decree as DANIEL 9:25 states from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem. 457 BC is the correct starting point as it is the first commandment according to DANIEL 9:25 to restore and build Jerusalem.

    5. It was also shown that latter the rebuilding was recommenced after it was stopped in troublsome times and an authorization letter (not decree) was given to Nehemiah to continue to rebuild the wall of Jerusalem in 444 B.C. (Nehemiah 1-2). This is only a continuation of the third decree of Artaxerxes above and it is not a new decree. It was an authorization to continue to restore and to build Jerusalem according to the third decree. So the correct decree or commandmetns was the third decree of EZRA 7 which gives us a starting point of 457 BC for the correct starting point of DANIEL 9:25 from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem

    6. According to the third decree of Artaxerxes found in DANIEL 7, if this decree is the correct one than everything should fall into place for the prophecy of DANIEL 9:25 which says; Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem to the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and three score and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. So by using the one day equals one year for prophetic interpretations as found in NUMBERS 14:34; EZEKIEL 4:6 and a starting point of 457 BC from EZRA 7 of the third decree from Artaxerxes if correct should reach to the MESSIAH the prince from DANIEL 9:25. Which it does exaclty! The Word MESSIAH used here in the HEBREW is משׁיח; mâshı̂yach which means anointed or usually a consecrated person: anointed, Messiah. So if we now take the timeline of DANIEL 9:25 with a starting point of 457 BC and use a day for a year principle of NUMBERS 14:34; EZEKIEL 4:6 for DANIAL 9:25 the 69 weeks to the MESSIAH would be 483 years from 457 BC which brings us to 27 AD. Does 27 AD bring us to the MESSIAH the "ANNOINTED"? According to the timeline of 457 BC of the third decree of Artaxerxes from EZRA 7 this commandment brings us EXACTLY to the BAPTISM of JESUS and the annointing of the HOLY SPIRIT and the starting of the ministration of JESUS!

    7. In 27 AD according to the timeline of DANIEL 9:25 using the starting point of the third decree of EZRA 7 which is 457 BC leads us to the the BAPTISM of JESUS. After the BAPTISM of JESUS and the public annointing of JESUS by the HOLY SPIRIT and the temptation in the wilderness, JESUS begins his ministry proclaiming "THE TIME IS FULFILLED REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL" *MARK 1:15 as a direct fulfillment of DANIEL 9:25. The 457 BC start time of DANIEL 9:25 using the third decree of Artaxerxes from EZRA 7 brings us EXACTLY to the BAPTISM of JESUS and the annointing of the HOLY SPIRIT and the starting of the ministration of JESUS and is a direct fulfillment of this prophecy.

    8. The start line that you provided from NEHEMIAH 445 BC is also incorrect as the only time to the MESSIAH (ANNOINTED) you have is in relation to JESUS entering JERUSALEM on a Donkey. This is not the start of the annointing of JESUS as the MESSIAH or the beginning of his ministry and public annointing by the HOLY SPIRIT so cannot be the correct start date.

    So brother, yes we will have to agree to disagree. I have enjoyed sharing and discussing God's WORD with you.

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2018
  18. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    The Mark Of The Beast In Daniel 8 - 12
    (Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him)

    Dan 7:25 And he [the little horn] shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    Daniel 7 repeats the empires theme of Daniel 2 and enlarges on the information on the divided Roman Empire by providing more details According to Daniel 7, the little horn power arises after the fall and division of the Roman Empire as represented by the 10 horns, which are introduced in Daniel 2 as the 10 toes of the statue.

    The book of Daniel is unsealed in the revelation to John, and carries us forward to the last scenes of this earth’s history. {18MR 15.3}

    The book of Daniel is understood or unsealed when the book of Revelation is applied to it. Note that there are two specific points that the little horn thinks he can change, the times and laws of the most High.

    THE TIMES OF THE MOST HIGH

    Acts 1:7 (KJV) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    The times that Jesus refers to here are the prophetic times that have the date of their fulfilment set by the Father. This, as we shall see, is the way "times" should be understood in Dan. 7:25. We will now apply the book of Revelation to Dan. 7:25 to unseal it.

    REVELATION 12
    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed [Dan. 11:44], which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    In Revelation 12 there are also two specific points that distinguish the true end time church, they keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, which incurs the wrath of Satan. These are the exact same two points mentioned in Daniel 7. The law in Daniel 7:25 equates with the commandments of God in Revelation 12:17. The times in Daniel 7:25 equates with the testimony of Jesus Christ in Revelation 12:17, which is further defined in Revelation 19:

    Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    REVELATION 14

    So the times in Daniel 7:25 equates with the spirit of prophecy, which is to say prophetic times. Laws in Daniel 7:25 equates with the commandments of God in Revelation 12:17. These same two points are even further defined in Revelation 14:

    Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
    Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea (See Exo. 20:11), and the fountains of waters.

    We now can see that "times and laws" in Daniel 7:25 explicitly refers to the prophetic time of judgment, and the Sabbath, the fourth commandment (Exo. 20:11), and these are proclaimed as the everlasting gospel. These two points are also found paired together here:

    Lev 19:30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

    Lev 26:2 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

    Ezek 23:38 Moreover this they have done unto me: they have defiled my sanctuary in the same day, and have profaned my sabbaths.

    DANIEL 8

    Daniel 8 is a vision that repeats and enlarges on the vision of Daniel 7, where we now know the little horn thinks to change the prophetic time of judgment (times) and the seventh day Sabbath (laws), so we should expect to find these two points in Daniel 8 too. The first is easy to find:

    Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    The Investigative Judgment which began at the conclusion of the 2300 days (1844) is the prophetic time of Daniel 7:25 that the little horn denies and thinks to change in an effort to obscure it. The sanctuary and the day of atonement illustrate the present truth ministry of Christ our high priest in the process of dealing with the sins of His people. How has this been obscured and changed?

    To begin with, the little horn in Daniel is said in the Catholic Douay Rheims Bible to be Antiochus IV Epiphanes, and the 2300 days are said to be the 6 years and about 4 months of persecution that ended with his death. This interpretation rejects the day for a year principle which establishes the associated 70 week prophecy in Daniel chapter 9 as 490 years, which the note in the Douay Rheims accepts. But there is another way the work of atonement by Christ our high priest in the heavenly sanctuary is obscured.

    Pope Tells Catholics Not To Seek Forgiveness Directly From God!

    28. ... It is good to renew and reaffirm this faith at a moment when it might be weakening, losing something of its completeness or entering into an area of shadow and silence, threatened as it is by the negative elements of the above-mentioned crisis. For the sacrament of confession is indeed being undermined, on the one hand by the obscuring of the mortal and religious conscience, the lessening of a sense of sin, the distortion of the concept of repentance and the lack of effort to live an authentically Christian life. And on the other hand, it is being undermined by the sometimes widespread idea that one can obtain forgiveness directly from God, even in a habitual way, without approaching the sacrament of reconciliation. A further negative influence is the routine of a sacramental practice sometimes lacking in fervor and real spontaneity, deriving perhaps from a mistaken and distorted idea of the effects of the sacrament.

    Source: Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation [​IMG] RECONCILIATION AND PENANCE, dated December 2nd, 1984.

    The Pope is saying that a Catholic must seek out a priest to confess their sins and ask forgiveness only through the priest, and that this "sacrament" of confession / penance is undermined by those who think they can approach God directly for forgiveness. This makes the Catholic priest essential in the process of salvation, since he stands in the place of God, as another mediator between man and God. This is not a novel teaching in the Catholic Church, is has a long history:

    St. Leo the Great (440-461) writes: "God in His abundant mercy has provided two remedies for the sins of men; that they may gain eternal life by the grace of Baptism, and also by the remedy of Penance. Those who have violated the vows of their Baptism may obtain the remission of their sins by condemning themselves; the divine goodness has so decreed that [pg. 284] the pardon of God can only be obtained by sinners through the prayers of the priests. Jesus Christ Himself has conferred upon the rulers of the Church the power of imposing canonical penance upon sinners who confess their sins, and of allowing them to receive the Sacraments of Christ, after they have purified their souls by a salutary satisfaction. . . . " (Epis. cviii.). [Emphasis supplied]

    Source: The Question Box, New Edition, by Rev. Bertrand L. Conway, Copyright 1929 by "The Missionary Society of St. Paul the Apostle, New York, published by The Paulist Press, 401 West 59th Street, New York, pages 283-284.

    Note what scripture says about confessing our sins to God:

    Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
    Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
    Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
    1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

    In Matt 9:2-6, Mark 2:5-12, and Luke 5:18-25 Christ publicly forgives a man's sins, and the scribes and Pharisees thinking Christ a mere man, accuse Him of blasphemy, because as they reasoned: Who can forgive sins, but God alone? Claiming to be able to forgive a man's sins is called blasphemy, it is something only God can do.

    The Catholic teaching cited above is clearly in direct opposition to scripture.
    This leaves the 4th commandment to be found in Daniel 8.

    Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

    Note that in verse 11 we again have two points, the daily and the sanctuary. As we have seen previously, the parallel to times in Daniel 7:25 is the cleansing of the sanctuary after 2300 days (years) in verse 14, the judgment on the day of atonement. So for the parallel to laws in Daniel 7:25, let's now examine the daily. The word translated daily [H8548 - tamiyd] can also have the meaning perpetual (Exo. 30:8, Lev. 6:20). The word sacrifice in the above verse is supplied by the translators, it is not in the original text and should be ignored.

    Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily [perpetual] sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
    Dan 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily [perpetual] sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered.
    Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily [perpetual] sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

    We can see above that the daily / perpetual is taken away and replaced by what is called the transgression of desolation. What truth is cast to the ground by the transgression?

    Psa 119:142 Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.

    1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Clearly the transgression of desolation involves transgressing the law of God. If we use the definition of perpetual instead of daily, does that lead us to the Sabbath? Yes it does!

    Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
    Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

    The word tamid in Daniel 8, 11, and 12 should be translated as perpetual, referring to the perpetual covenant of the Sabbath commandment. The transgression which replaces the perpetual covenant and results in desolation is also mentioned in Isaiah.

    Isa 24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
    Isa 24:2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
    Isa 24:3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
    Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
    Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
    Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

    So the mark of the beast, the little horn, is indeed found in Daniel 8, it is the transgression of desolation. It is also the abomination that maketh desolate in Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11 and the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14.

    THE SEAL OF GOD

    If we also now apply the refined definitions of "times and laws" of Dan 7:25 provided to us by Revelation 12:17, 14:7 and 19:10, and read them into Isaiah 8, notice the result:

    Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony (of Jesus, the spirit of prophecy), seal the law (7th day Sabbath) among my disciples.
    ...
    Isa 8:20 To the law (7th day Sabbath) and to the testimony (2300 day prophecy / pre-advent judgment): if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    In conjunction with Exodus 31:16-17, this clearly confirms the 7th day Sabbath to be the sign or seal of God, the perpetual covenant of Daniel 8.

    In the very time in which we live, the Lord has called His people and has given them a message to bear. He has called them to expose the wickedness of the man of sin who has made the Sunday law a distinctive power, who has thought to change times and laws, and to oppress the people of God who stand firmly to honor Him by keeping the only true Sabbath, the Sabbath of creation, as holy unto the Lord. He has called them to bear the sign of God, to exalt the Lord in keeping holy His law; for it is a transcript of His character. No part of the law of God and their covenant obligation to keep that law holy is to lose its binding claims upon all the world. Those who have had the light upon keeping the law of Jehovah are to stand firmly in the faith, and to make that light shine forth in clear, distinct rays. {18MR 33.1} (Biblelight)

    Something to think about.

    May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.
     
  19. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    WHAT ARE THE SYMBOLS AND MEANING OF MARK, SIGN AND SEAL?

    JESUS when quoting the two great commentments of LOVE to GOD and LOVE to man from Matthew 22:26-40 is quoting from the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures found in DEUTERONOMY 6:5 and LEVITICUS 19:18 and finishes by saying v40 "ON THESE TWO COMMENTMENTS OF LOVE to GOD and LOVE to MAN HANG ALL THE LAW and the prophets.

    If we go bact to DEUTERONOMY 6:5-8 we find somthing interesting in v8..

    DEUTERONOMY 6:5-8
    5, And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6, And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7, And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shall talk of them when thou sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when thou rises up. 8, And you shall bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as front lets between thine eyes.

    NOTE: v8 has an interesting parallel with REVELATION 13:16:17 and

    REVELATION 14:9-10 [9], And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, [10], The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

    Looking at the HEBREW word for sign in DEUTERONOMY 6:8 actually means MARK making it similar to the scriptures on the MARK OF THE BEAST in REVELATIONS 13 and 14 which are also received in the hand and forehead.

    The Hebrew word for “sign” is Strong's H226 אות'ôth; oth; which also means Mark. The first four commandments of the 10 commandments represent our Love duty to God (Exodus 20:1-11) and how we worship him. Did you notice where love and obedience to God is a sign or mark of worship through love to God which is bound to the hand and between the frontlets of our eyes?

    Let's look at the Hebrew words "frontlets" (H2903) and "between thine eyes" (H5869)"frontlets" (H2903) טופפה; ṭôphâphâh; to-faw-faw' means; to bind ; in the forehead "between thine eyes" (H5869) עין; ‛ayin; ah'-yin; means (many meanings but some mean) to think about, favour, to see, sight, knowledge

    So verse 8 is talking about summing up the first 4 commandments of the 10 which is our love and duty of worship to God as being the "Mark of God" which is placed where? In the forehead and in the hand..... The same scriptures in

    Deuteronomy 6 can be read as; Love the Lord thy God with all thine heart and with all thy soul and with all thy might (seen as the first four commandment to God (Exodus 20:1-11) 8, And you shall bind them for a “Mark” upon thine hand, and forehead. This is the Mark of God. God’s Mark is Love with the fruit of obedience. To love him with all the heart and have no other God’s before him, love will not make idols of anything on earth and serve them, love will not use God’s name in vain and love will remember God’s Sabbath day to keep it Holy. These are the Mark of Sign of the believers of those who follow God.

    Now let’s compare this with …. (SIGN= MARK=SEAL mean the same)

    EZEKIEL 20:11-12
    [11], And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. 12, Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a SIGN <H226; same word for “MARK”> between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

    So in our duty to Love God as demonstrated in Deuteronomy 6:5-8 and demonstrated through obedience to the first four commandments (Exodus 20:1-11), God’s Mark is bound to his people on their hand and forehead showing that His people believe and worship the only true God of creation of which the 7th Day Sabbath is also a sign or “Mark”. We should be clear here that the only commandments from God’s Law that God describes as being his SIGN or “MARK” is in our duty of worship and love to the creator.This links back to REVELATIONS 14:7-12 where we read the MARK OF THE BEAST IS LINKED TO WORSHIP.

    God’s people marked or sealed for protection…

    EZEKIEL 9:1-11
    [1] He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.
    [2] And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.
    [3] And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;
    [4] And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
    [5] And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
    [6] Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
    [7] And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.
    [8] And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?
    [9] Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.
    [10] And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.
    [11] And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.

    Now remember the Beast of Revelations also has a mark that we are warned against receiving? (Revelation 13:16; 14:8:11). This is called the “MARK OF THE BEAST”. Anyone who receives this mark is in danger of receiving the judgements of God. We are warned not to receive this mark because it will affect our salvation and standing with God.

    God’s people receive God’s mark of protection in the last days…

    REVELATION 7:4-10
    4, And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
    5, Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
    6, Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
    7, Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
    8, Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
    9, After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
    10, And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

    The SEAL= GOD'S MARK

    Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew & Thayer Greek Definitions - G4972
    Σφραγίζω; sphragizō Thayer Definition:
    1) to set a seal upon, mark with a seal, to seal
    1a) for security: from Satan
    1b) since things sealed up are concealed (as the contents of a letter), to hide, keep in silence, keep secret
    1c) in order to mark a person or a thing
    1c1) to set a mark upon by the impress of a seal or a stamp
    1c2) angels are said to be sealed by God
    1d) in order to prove, confirm, or attest a thing
    1d1) to confirm authenticate, place beyond doubt
    1d1a) of a written document
    1d1b) to prove one's testimony to a person that he is what he professes to be

    Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries w/TVM, Strong - G4972
    Σφραγίζω; sphragizō; sfrag-id'-zo From G4973; to stamp with a signet or private mark for security or preservation (literally or figuratively); by implication to keep secret, to attest: - (set a, set to) seal up, stop.

    Now lets tie the above into the GREEK Word used in MARK OF THE BEAST from REVELATION 13:16 and 14:11…

    REVELATION 13:16 And he causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads

    Now let’s add the GREEK word used for “MARK” *REVELATION 14:11; 13: χάραγμα charagma From the same as G5482; a scratch or etching, that is, stamp as a badge of servitude, or sculptured figure (statue): - graven, mark.

    So there is God's Mark which is a SIGN of Love and obedience and worship to God and a BEASTS MARK as a sign of servitude to the beast that we are warned against receiving or we will receive God's Judgements (Revelations 14:8-11). This warning not to receive the Beasts Mark is proceeded with the warning that Babylon the great, also identified as the great whore that sits on the beast, is fallen with a call for God's People to come out of her (Revelations 14:8). The call to come out of Babylon is then once again repeated in Revelation 18:1-10 but this time Babylon is described in more detail in Revelations 17:1-7; 18:1-10

    So it is important to understand who Babylon is because it has a connection to the beast and its Mark that we are warned against receiving (Revelations 14:8-11; 17:1-18) and God is calling his people out before it receives his judgements.

    There is actually a lot to take in here but letting the bible interpret itself let’s see what God’s Word says the following symbols represent?

    ..............

    to be continued..
     
  20. LoveGodsWord

    LoveGodsWord Well-Known Member

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    SOME SYMBOLS DEFINED IN GOD'S WORD SO FAR.

    *WOMAN PURE = God's people faithful (Jeremiah 6:2; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:23-27)

    *WOMAN WHORE
    = God's people unfaithful to God fornicator, adulteress, unfaithful or false religion (Isaiah 1:21-27; Jeremiah 3:1-3; 6-9; Ezekiel 16:15-58; 23:2-21; Hosea 2:5; 3:1; Revelations 14:4)

    *MOTHER OF HARLOTS
    = Gives birth to unfaithful or false religion offspring and children just like the Mother

    *BEAST
    = Kingdom; Nations or political power (Daniel 7:17; 23; Proverbs 28:15)

    *HORN OF A BEAST
    = A king or ruler that arise out of the Kingdom; Nations or political power (Daniel 7:24; 8:5; 21-22; Zechariah 1:18-19; Revelations 17:12)

    *SCARLET COLOR
    = sin (Isaiah 1:18)

    *HAND
    = To act out or to do action (Ecclesiastes 9:10; Acts 4:28 etc)

    *FOREHAND
    = To believe or think (Ezekiel 3:8-9; Jeremiah 3:3 see also word meanings)

    *MARK/SEAL/SIGN = is BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD or NOT BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's WORD (Revelation 14:7-12; 7:4-10
    Deuteronomy 6:8; Ezekiel 20:11-12; Ezekiel 9:1-11)

    ..............

    Let's put it all together.....

    Babylon the Great Whore = a world-wide unfaithful Church that is unfaithful to God or does not follow God’s Word. It is a mother of harlots meaning other unfaithful Churches have come out of this mother of Churches. Let’s make something clear before we continue. God has his people in every Church, even the unfaithful fallen Churches as seen in Revelations 18:4. He is calling them to come out of these Churches because they are not teaching people to follow God’s Word. Jesus also says; Other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd (John 10:16). Because the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:23-24)

    God's Mark is a mark of love and worship to God seen as the fruit of obedience to Gods Law *REVELATION 14:12. It is applied to the hand and the forehead representing believing and doing. It is sin that is disobedience to God’s Word and it is sin and nothing more that all to receive God’s judgements.

    The beast which represents a nation or kingdom will have power to make laws under punishment of death to force all to break God’s Law. This is the ONLY time anyone can receive the MARK OF THE BEAST when it is forced upon mankind under law.

    We receive it in the hand by following or doing the beast’s law or we receive it in the forehead by believing and following this law over the Word of God or breaking God’s Law (Revelation 13:15-16). Everyone has the choice to choose for themselves whether they receive this mark or not and those that do follow the beast, receive the judgements of God (Revelation 14:9-11).

    The beast (KINGDOM) is seen being ridden by a harlot Woman (unfaithful, mother of Christian Churches) also called Babylon that God has some of his people in who are warned to come out of unless of these organisations unless they receive the plague of God (Revelations 18:4).

    All through time from Genesis to Revelations God's judgements have only ever been given to mankind because of sin. As it was in the days of Noah and Sodom so shall it be at the coming of the son of man. Sin is the transgression of God's Law and the wages of sin is death which is the penalty of sin (1 John 3:4; Romans 6:23). Therefore just as the Mark of God in the hand and forehead represents love and worship to God seen as the fruit of obedience to Gods Law (10 commandments), the Mark of the beast will be over forced disobedience to God's Law of Love. The Mark of the beast does not affect anyone until it is forced upon mankind by the beast (Revelations 13:15-18). However, if we are living in sin now we are not following God or know him and need to repent and seek him for forgiveness through faith in His Word.

    After the warning about receiving the mark of the beast is proclaimed a description of God’s people is proclaimed

    REVELATION 14:12
    Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    Further descriptions of God’s people are also described throughout the book of Revelations….

    REVELATION 12:17
    And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    REVELATION 22:14
    Blessed are they that do his commandments that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    God’s people keep all of God’s commandments through faith in his promises to save them from their sins. He gives them his Spirit so that they can follow him in love and obedience. God’s Word say that if we break one of God’s commandments we are guilty before God of breaking all of His Law (James 2:8-12).

    This includes the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH which is God's 4th Commandment that God has commanded his people to follow which is one of the 10 (Exodus 20:8-11)

    Just as God’s Mark or sign to His people is demonstrated through worship and love to him through the first four commandments. The Mark of the Beast will be loyalty to the beast through breaking God’s Law which is sin against God. Those that follow the Beast do not follow God and will be in danger of receiving God’s judgements.

    Those that receive the Mark of the Beast are those that through disobedience and living in sin do not know God and refuse his love and invitation of Grace and salvation… Who will you choose?

    God’s sheep hear his voice…
     
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