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Are you believing the lie?

StormyOne

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The problem as I view it is that christians especially adventists learn about Jewish culture and worldview from other christians and not from the Jews themselves. This severely skews then their understanding of a lot of stuff found in the OT, and how it should be interpreted..... If more adventists understood that to the Jew there was no artificial divisions in "the law" it might change how they view the concept and understand how Paul could say we are not under "the law." Additionally I wish there could be a better understanding of it so the whole "we are spiritual Israel" could be dropped once and for all....
 
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Sophia7

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The problem as I view it is that christians especially adventists learn about Jewish culture and worldview from other christians and not from the Jews themselves. This severely skews then their understanding of a lot of stuff found in the OT, and how it should be interpreted..... If more adventists understood that to the Jew there was no artificial divisions in "the law" it might change how they view the concept and understand how Paul could say we are not under "the law." Additionally I wish there could be a better understanding of it so the whole "we are spiritual Israel" could be dropped once and for all....

I agree.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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Yes, as far as I can tell, it did come from Thomas Aquinas.

Yes, and it has been adopted by other Arminian groups, such as Methodism. Interestingly, only SDAism uses this argument to support the modern day observance of one of the holy convocations.

BFA
 
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Joe67

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We must need to hear Moses' song as well as the Lamb's song.

The Jews rejected Moses and the prophets of reproof that the Lord sent them, though they professed they obeyed Moses. Modern Jewish instruction, as to the meaning of Moses and the prophets, by those who are seeking to establish a Jewish state and restore the sacrificial system, would only lead to the same rejection of the teachings and works of Jesus today, as it did when Jesus walked in the flesh.

Those who reject Moses, through unbelief, will never enter into the full purpose of God in his Son, Jesus our Lord, our high priest, who was raised from the dead by the Spirit of the Father, in his glory.

But, we cannot enter into that purpose through seeking it, as it were, by the works of the law. We will stumble, as did the Jews, in thinking of sabbath based on a 7 day cycle. Yet, those who despise the principle of sabbath will be found joining with the drunken, saying, in their heart, my Lord delays his coming, taking his name to take away the reproach, but living in pleasure. She that lives in pleasure is dead while she lives.

The old man who prophesied against the altar at Bethel, as Jeroboam was offering the incense, is an object lesson of the work of the Lord through the entire world-wide Advent movement in its entire witness to the coming of Jesus, which movement was hated by those who were looking for 1000 years of peace and prosperity and by those who worshiped the planet.


Joe
 
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Sophia7

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Yes, and it has been adopted by other Arminian groups, such as Methodism. Interestingly, only SDAism uses this argument to support the modern day observance of one of the holy convocations.

BFA

I disagree that Seventh-day Adventists are alone in using that argument, even today. Seventh Day Baptists still categorize the ten commandments as moral and teach that Christians should observe the Sabbath:
Creation and the Law

God so desired that His people know Him that He revealed to them part of His character, known as the Law or Ten Commandments. These ten words of law were God's desire for the Children of Israel and for all humankind.

The fourth of these Commandments points back to creation as the origin of the Sabbath. God commands people to keep the Sabbath because He, Himself kept the Sabbath at creation. God blessed the Sabbath and made it holy by setting the example for all mankind to rest on that day. . . .

Jesus and the Sabbath

The Ten Commandments are an expression of God's very nature and will, which is unchangeable. Jesus Christ did not come to change even the smallest portion of the moral law (Matthew 5:17-18). Some say that Christ changed the Sabbath from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week. That would require a change in the law. The moral law says that "the seventh day is the Sabbath" and not the first day of the week. In no place does the Bible tell us of this change in the law from the seventh to the first day of the week.

The Sabbath was the commandment most corrupted by the Pharisees. So, it is not surprising that it was over Sabbath-keeping that Jesus would have most of his conflict with the Pharisees. The Sabbath issue between Christ and the Pharisees is never over which day to worship or over whether the Sabbath was still part of God's desire for man. The issue for Christ was the way in which the Sabbath was being kept and the Pharisees' attitude toward the Sabbath. . . . (Seventh Day Baptist - Sabbath)
Also, the United Methodist Church's Articles of Religion includes this statement, dividing the law into categories:
Article VI—Of the Old Testament
The Old Testament is not contrary to the New; for both in the Old and New Testament everlasting life is offered to mankind by Christ, who is the only Mediator between God and man, being both God and Man. Wherefore they are not to be heard who feign that the old fathers did look only for transitory promises. Although the law given from God by Moses as touching ceremonies and rites doth not bind Christians, nor ought the civil precepts thereof of necessity be received in any commonwealth; yet notwithstanding, no Christian whatsoever is free from the obedience of the commandments which are called moral. (The Articles of Religion of the Methodist Church V-VIII)
That is almost identical (other than a few differences in capitalization and punctuation) to this statement from the Anglican Communion's Thirty Nine Articles of Religion:
7. Of the Old Testament.
The Old Testament is not contrary to the New: for both in the Old and New Testament everlasting life is offered to Mankind by Christ, who is the only Mediator between God and Man, being both God and Man. Wherefore they are not to be heard, which feign that the old Fathers did look only for transitory promises. Although the Law given from God by Moses, as touching Ceremonies and Rites, do not bind Christian men, nor the Civil precepts thereof ought of necessity to be received in any commonwealth; yet notwithstanding, no Christian man whatsoever is free from the obedience of the Commandments which are called Moral. (Anglican Communion Information Service - The Thirty Nine Articles)
In addition, the Presbyterian Church in America still cites the Westminster Confession as a doctrinal standard (PCA: COF PREFACE). The Constitution of the Presbyterian Church (USA) consists in part of The Book of Confessions, described on their website as "containing historical statements of what we as a church believe," including the Westminster Confession (Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) - Office of the General Assembly - The Constitution of the PC(USA); Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) - Office of the General Assembly - The Book of Order).

While those churches--which are not all Arminian groups--as a matter of practice may not emphasize the ten commandments much anymore, and they certainly don't teach that obedience to the fourth commandment will be the final end-time test of loyalty for true believers (which is unique to Adventism), the idea of categorization of the law is still included in their official documents and websites, so at least on paper they still officially require obedience to the ten commandments.

On a personal note, my current church, which is a Baptist church, does not have a doctrine upholding the ten commandments as a moral law. However, some of the members there believe that the ten commandments are still binding and that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath and that certain activities should not be done on that day, and I've had discussions with them about that. It becomes a problem when some of the kids' teachers promote that view of the law in Sunday School, and I've had to explain to my kids several times what we now believe about it (in as simple terms as I could since they are still very young). It is frustrating to me that that still happens although it is less common in many churches today than it used to be. That's my one major issue with that church although it is not an official teaching. On the other hand, apart from other reasons, I wouldn't feel comfortable joining a Methodist or Presbyterian or Anglican church that still held to that view of the law in their official doctrinal statements. And if I weren't concerned about official belief statements, I could have just remained an Adventist and transferred my membership to my hubby's grandma's progressive Adventist church; that would have made our family relationships a lot less complicated. :)
 
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Byfaithalone1

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I disagree that Seventh-day Adventists are alone in using that argument, even today. Seventh Day Baptists still categorize the ten commandments as moral and teach that Christians should observe the Sabbath:
Creation and the Law

God so desired that His people know Him that He revealed to them part of His character, known as the Law or Ten Commandments. These ten words of law were God's desire for the Children of Israel and for all humankind.

The fourth of these Commandments points back to creation as the origin of the Sabbath. God commands people to keep the Sabbath because He, Himself kept the Sabbath at creation. God blessed the Sabbath and made it holy by setting the example for all mankind to rest on that day. . . .

Jesus and the Sabbath

The Ten Commandments are an expression of God's very nature and will, which is unchangeable. Jesus Christ did not come to change even the smallest portion of the moral law (Matthew 5:17-18). Some say that Christ changed the Sabbath from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week. That would require a change in the law. The moral law says that "the seventh day is the Sabbath" and not the first day of the week. In no place does the Bible tell us of this change in the law from the seventh to the first day of the week.

The Sabbath was the commandment most corrupted by the Pharisees. So, it is not surprising that it was over Sabbath-keeping that Jesus would have most of his conflict with the Pharisees. The Sabbath issue between Christ and the Pharisees is never over which day to worship or over whether the Sabbath was still part of God's desire for man. The issue for Christ was the way in which the Sabbath was being kept and the Pharisees' attitude toward the Sabbath. . . . (Seventh Day Baptist - Sabbath)
Also, the United Methodist Church's Articles of Religion includes this statement, dividing the law into categories:
Article VI—Of the Old Testament
The Old Testament is not contrary to the New; for both in the Old and New Testament everlasting life is offered to mankind by Christ, who is the only Mediator between God and man, being both God and Man. Wherefore they are not to be heard who feign that the old fathers did look only for transitory promises. Although the law given from God by Moses as touching ceremonies and rites doth not bind Christians, nor ought the civil precepts thereof of necessity be received in any commonwealth; yet notwithstanding, no Christian whatsoever is free from the obedience of the commandments which are called moral. (The Articles of Religion of the Methodist Church V-VIII)
That is almost identical (other than a few differences in capitalization and punctuation) to this statement from the Anglican Communion's Thirty Nine Articles of Religion:
7. Of the Old Testament.
The Old Testament is not contrary to the New: for both in the Old and New Testament everlasting life is offered to Mankind by Christ, who is the only Mediator between God and Man, being both God and Man. Wherefore they are not to be heard, which feign that the old Fathers did look only for transitory promises. Although the Law given from God by Moses, as touching Ceremonies and Rites, do not bind Christian men, nor the Civil precepts thereof ought of necessity to be received in any commonwealth; yet notwithstanding, no Christian man whatsoever is free from the obedience of the Commandments which are called Moral. (Anglican Communion Information Service - The Thirty Nine Articles)
In addition, the Presbyterian Church in America still cites the Westminster Confession as a doctrinal standard (PCA: COF PREFACE). The Constitution of the Presbyterian Church (USA) consists in part of The Book of Confessions, described on their website as "containing historical statements of what we as a church believe," including the Westminster Confession (Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) - Office of the General Assembly - The Constitution of the PC(USA); Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) - Office of the General Assembly - The Book of Order).

While those churches--which are not all Arminian groups--as a matter of practice may not emphasize the ten commandments much anymore, and they certainly don't teach that obedience to the fourth commandment will be the final end-time test of loyalty for true believers (which is unique to Adventism), the idea of categorization of the law is still included in their official documents and websites, so at least on paper they still officially require obedience to the ten commandments.

On a personal note, my current church, which is a Baptist church, does not have a doctrine upholding the ten commandments as a moral law. However, some of the members there believe that the ten commandments are still binding and that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath and that certain activities should not be done on that day, and I've had discussions with them about that. It becomes a problem when some of the kids' teachers promote that view of the law in Sunday School, and I've had to explain to my kids several times what we now believe about it (in as simple terms as I could since they are still very young). It is frustrating to me that that still happens although it is less common in many churches today than it used to be. That's my one major issue with that church although it is not an official teaching. On the other hand, apart from other reasons, I wouldn't feel comfortable joining a Methodist or Presbyterian or Anglican church that still held to that view of the law in their official doctrinal statements. And if I weren't concerned about official belief statements, I could have just remained an Adventist and transferred my membership to my hubby's grandma's progressive Adventist church; that would have made our family relationships a lot less complicated. :)

The tone of your post seems to suggest that we are disagreement, but there really is no disagreement between us on these points.

BFA
 
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Sophia7

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The tone of your post seems to suggest that we are disagreement, but there really is no disagreement between us on these points.

BFA

OK, that's cool. I must have misunderstood what you meant in your earlier comment abut only Adventism using that argument. Sorry. :sorry:

This conversation has reminded me of something that I sometimes wonder about, though. Which is worse--(a) a church that has official doctrinal statements with which I disagree but that doesn't usually enforce them or (b) a church that requires affirmation of only basic Christian beliefs that I can accept but whose members occasionally promote unbiblical teachings in Sunday School?

For now, we've chosen a church that fits into option (b). What my husband and I teach our kids is most important, and we can't shelter them from everything with which we disagree (and it wouldn't necessarily be good to do that even if we could). If they were being taught erroneous doctrines every week, and we had to constantly reteach them, I think that would be worse, but as it is, my only issue with what my kids are being taught in Sunday School is that view of the ten commandments as the standard of moral behavior, and it doesn't even come up that often--nowhere near as often as it does in Adventism ;). On the other hand, I couldn't conscientiously be a member of a church if I disagreed with any of its official doctrines, whether they were enforced or not. I left Adventism for that reason, but I know that many other denominations are not as focused on doctrine as Adventism, so perhaps I'm too picky about that.

I also know that there is no perfect church and that there is no church in which everyone agrees on everything. I found the process of searching for another church after leaving Adentism extremely frustrating and confusing and discouraging. I still don't completely identify with any one denomination. There are things that I like about many different churches, as well as things with which I disagree. I can relate to this statement by C. S. Lewis:
It ["'mere' Christianity"] is more like a hall out of which doors open into several rooms. . . . But it is in the rooms, not in the hall, that there are fires and chairs and meals. The hall is a place to wait in, a place from which to try the various doors, not a place to live in. . . . It is true that some people may find they have to wait in the hall for a considerable time, while others feel certain almost at once which door they must knock at. I do not know why there is this difference, but I am sure God keeps no one waiting unless He sees that it is good for him to wait. When you do get into your room you will find that the long wait has done you some kind of good which you would not have had otherwise. But you must regard it as waiting, not as camping. . . .

When you have reached your own room, be kind to those who have chosen different doors and to those who are still in the hall. If they are wrong they need your prayers all the more; and if they are your enemies, then you are under orders to pray for them. . . . (Preface to Mere Christianity)
I've spent a lot of time in that hall during the past few years, and I'm thankful to be in a room now, imperfect as it is.
 
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Joe67

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The tone of your post seems to suggest that we are disagreement, but there really is no disagreement between us on these points.

BFA
BFA,

The wisdom of the Lord, in his Christ, is in the tone of the communication as the words are mixed with bodily language.

Ex 20:18-20
18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

20 And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not. KJV

The Lord was laboring to bring the people up to the attitude of heart that Abram was in when the Lord called him. The fear of God was before Abram's face when the Lord called him. Abram obeyed the command to leave his place of natural security and go to a place that the Lord would show him as he went.

Abram/Abraham never needed to repent for breaking a command that the Lord gave him, though he was continually repentant for his sinful state of being in his flesh, thus he offered whole burnt offerings.

Joe
 
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Byfaithalone1

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This conversation has reminded me of something that I sometimes wonder about, though. Which is worse--(a) a church that has official doctrinal statements with which I disagree but that doesn't usually enforce them or (b) a church that requires affirmation of only basic Christian beliefs that I can accept but whose members occasionally promote unbiblical teachings in Sunday School? For now, we've chosen a church that fits into option (b).

Me too. We've landed in a church that fits point "b" quite well. What is particularly concerning for me is the way in which such comments are handled. There is a lot of herd-following in my neck of the woods.

What my husband and I teach our kids is most important, and we can't shelter them from everything with which we disagree (and it wouldn't necessarily be good to do that even if we could). If they were being taught erroneous doctrines every week, and we had to constantly reteach them, I think that would be worse, but as it is, my only issue with what my kids are being taught in Sunday School is that view of the ten commandments as the standard of moral behavior, and it doesn't even come up that often--nowhere near as often as it does in Adventism ;).

We aren't facing that in our current environment. However, the sermons do take an interesting tone. Very often, the sermon relates to a command from Jesus about how we are to live and the entire sermon is preached in such a way that one could easily conclude that every good and perfect gift comes from the heart of a human. Too often, the emphasis on grace can be overshadowed by the emphasis on works.

On the other hand, I couldn't conscientiously be a member of a church if I disagreed with any of its official doctrines, whether they were enforced or not. I left Adventism for that reason, but I know that many other denominations are not as focused on doctrine as Adventism, so perhaps I'm too picky about that.

I understand your position. Our first stopping point was in a Methodist Church. Methodism has espoused core doctrines that don't fit within my understanding. This is part (and only part) of the reason why I'm not a Methodist.

I also know that there is no perfect church and that there is no church in which everyone agrees on everything. I found the process of searching for another church after leaving Adentism extremely frustrating and confusing and discouraging. I still don't completely identify with any one denomination. There are things that I like about many different churches, as well as things with which I disagree.

Your comments completely resonate with me. I'm finding that I don't fit well within evangelical Christianity. I'm not a card-carrying republican and I actually want to use my brain rather than simply following the herd. At least in my neck of the woods, these things don't sit well with evangelicals.

BTW, great quote from CS Lewis.

BFA
 
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Soon144k

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If you truly believe that we will not be able to do the same works as did Jesus when He was here on this earth it means that either you don't know what Jesus said, or that you don't believe what He said about this subject. Here is what He said:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father". John 14:12.

I find it interesting that so called "Christians" and especially SDA's who should know better, make assumptions about what Jesus said without knowing the facts. It is not a lie to say that we can and will do the works of Jesus Christ, and greater, when the time comes for that to occur. That is why we must FIRST look to the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as He gave them to His eyewitness disciples for confirmation of the truth.
 
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