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Are you believing the lie?

Joe67

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We experience the death of Gethsemane when we hear the law speaking.

Even our Lord Jesus asked for this cup to be removed.

Reading the written words and hearing the voice of the words are distinct events in their quality and results.

Reading is a prison, but a good educational prison, like a nursery for babies, where we are fed milk, protected and trained. Our schoolmaster/warden is fat and comfortable from our service and desires not to let us go.

Hearing the voice of the law brings death because of sin and then hearing the voice of the risen Son of God brings resurrection unto newness of life and purpose in the ministration of the Spirit. This is a daily work of grace in our hearts and minds by the Spirit.

Joe
 
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r035198x

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No, not semantics at all.... one, notice you have not defined what commandments the text is referring to ...
Deliberately so.

.. notice that the motivating factor for keeping the commandments is LOVE.... that is significant... one must love before any action is required... ...
And where in my post did I state anything to the contrary? I see it as a misconception that you read my post and assumed that I said that commandments were given just so people could keep them.

StromyOne said:
Would you consider the letter Paul wrote to the Galatians a question of semantics?
I see now that you probably didn't understand my post at all. I was not referring to the bible text as a question of semantics but your assesment of my post as incorrect because you saw a non existent stance that says that people need to keep the commandments and rely on the law. Otherwise I really see no point for the rest of your post.
 
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r035198x

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Can you help me understand this statement a bit better? If a denomination taught that non-sabbatarians will one day receive the mark of the beast, would this be an examlpe of "a legalistic imposition on people's lives resulting in a huge stumbling block of 'do not touch' laws?"

BFA
I can give it a try.
If a denomination says that no one should travel on Saturdays or watch T.V and list a set of activities that should be avoided then that imposition plays on my mind as soon as the sabbath approaches.
I now have to make sure I finish work early on Fridays, can't accept any overtime that period, switch my phone off and keep those activities in mind so I don't break the commandment.
That all becomes a burden and can easily become a stumbling block to me. There is no glory in keeping the law in that manner. God's grace alone is sufficient for our upholding of the law not actions or conciousness on our part. The law is not supposed to be a burden.
1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
That's why Paul wrote that the law that Moses brought from the mountain had its own glory (because Moses' face temporarily glowed when he came down with it) but there is far much more glory in the grace brought by Jesus because His glory is not temporary.

Colossians 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Commandments and doctrines of men are not only burdensome, but impossible to keep.
 
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StormyOne

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Deliberately so.
that's cool...

And where in my post did I state anything to the contrary? I see it as a misconception that you read my post and assumed that I said that commandments were given just so people could keep them.
Yes I have from time to time read something in a comment that the person did not say/suggest... pardon my misreading....

I see now that you probably didn't understand my post at all. I was not referring to the bible text as a question of semantics but your assesment of my post as incorrect because you saw a non existent stance that says that people need to keep the commandments and rely on the law. Otherwise I really see no point for the rest of your post.
fair enough, as such you are more than welcome to ignore my comments...
 
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Byfaithalone1

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I can give it a try.
If a denomination says that no one should travel on Saturdays or watch T.V and list a set of activities that should be avoided then that imposition plays on my mind as soon as the sabbath approaches.
I now have to make sure I finish work early on Fridays, can't accept any overtime that period, switch my phone off and keep those activities in mind so I don't break the commandment.
That all becomes a burden and can easily become a stumbling block to me. There is no glory in keeping the law in that manner. God's grace alone is sufficient for our upholding of the law not actions or conciousness on our part. The law is not supposed to be a burden.
1 John 5
That's why Paul wrote that the law that Moses brought from the mountain had its own glory (because Moses' face temporarily glowed when he came down with it) but there is far much more glory in the grace brought by Jesus because His glory is not temporary.

Colossians 2

Commandments and doctrines of men are not only burdensome, but impossible to keep.

OK. So what about God-given commands? If God commanded the Israelites not to pursue their own pleasure on the sabbath day, would it be burdensome if men imposed these God-given commands today?

BFA
 
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r035198x

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OK. So what about God-given commands? If God commanded the Israelites not to pursue their own pleasure on the sabbath day, would it be burdensome if men imposed these God-given commands today?

BFA
There are ifs in the question but answering it as stated, yes, men imposing commandments on people is always going to be burdensome.

If I may be more liberal with the question I would say that the bible is clear on that the reason the commandments were given was to draw men to God because of their sins before grace was availed.
Galatians 3
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
...
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Following the law was the only way for sinners to become reconciled with God before the seed came.
 
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Cribstyl

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There is a belief system out there that says we can't keep the commandments. This is so untrue and from the pit of hell. The Bible nevers says we can't keep the commandments. We may not want to keep the commandments or we may be keeping the commandments with the wrong motive and it's no doubt that we may not keep them pefectly all the time but it never says we can't keep them.

Jesus kept the commandments and He's our example. Zacharias and Elizabeth kept the commandments of God.

Luke 1"5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

To say we can't keep the commandments is a ploy from the devil to let down our guard and live in disobedience. If you allow God to write His Law in your heart and mind you will love God and will keep His commandments. If you keep the commandments with this motive you will manifest a godly love and be over flowing with compassion.

God never says we can't keep the commandments, but rather, He tells us to persevere in keeping them and having the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
The lie is when people believe in their heart that they are keeping God's commandments. If the ten commandment was all we're up against, most people would feel they're not so bad.
Why is it you know that you're a sinner, but you know in your heart that you're not wrestling with the ten commandments?
We all wrestling with our level of faith. Some kids and elders dont wrestle with adultery. If death and adultery are not possible in heaven, why would I want the ten commandment written on my heart?

My bible says whatever is not of faith is a sin.Rom 14:23.
What you've fail to understand sbout the preaching of faith is that, the law was magnified beyond what a man does with his hands to what a man thinks in his heart. The commandments of God to the church is to love God and your neighbors.
It's disingenuous to substitutes word that are not talking about the ten commandments as if God's word is contradictory.
 
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Sophia7

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If I may be more liberal with the question I would say that the bible is clear on that the reason the commandments were given was to draw men to God because of their sins before grace was availed.
Galatians 3

Following the law was the only way for sinners to become reconciled with God before the seed came.

The law condemned; it didn't reconcile. No one was ever able to obey the law perfectly, so it couldn't reconcile anyone with God. It pointed to Christ, who alone could do what the law couldn't do. Salvation has always been by grace, never by law.
 
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r035198x

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The law condemned; it didn't reconcile. No one was ever able to obey the law perfectly, so it couldn't reconcile anyone with God. It pointed to Christ, who alone could do what the law couldn't do. Salvation has always been by grace, never by law.
You are confusing salvation with reconciliation. The activities of the high priest and all the laws of atonement allowed unclean people to be reconciled because they were blood covenant laws.
 
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Joe67

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The law condemned; it didn't reconcile. No one was ever able to obey the law perfectly, so it couldn't reconcile anyone with God. It pointed to Christ, who alone could do what the law couldn't do. Salvation has always been by grace, never by law.
Sophia,

Amen and amen.

The following Scripture has been a guide to me, through the Spirit.

Rom 5:8-11
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. KJV

Joe
 
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r035198x

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Sophia,

Amen and amen.

The following Scripture has been a guide to me, through the Spirit.

Rom 5:8-11
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. KJV

Joe

'We' in the passages is us, you and me not the people who lived before Christ died for our atonement. Before the atonement the law stated what was required for man to move between states of cleanness and uncleaness. You do understand the meaning of the word 'now' in the passages you quoted above, right?
 
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r035198x

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The law is the means/instrument whereby sin comes alive and slays us.

Joe
Sin did not come because of the law, the law was added because of sin.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The law in itself is good. Seeking justification by it after the seed came is the problem.
 
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Joe67

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Sin did not come because of the law, the law was added because of sin.


The law in itself is good. Seeking justification by it after the seed came is the problem.
r...x,

I was speaking concerning the law coming to each of us personally.

Rom 7:9-10
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. KJV

Joe
 
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Sophia7

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You are confusing salvation with reconciliation. The activities of the high priest and all the laws of atonement allowed unclean people to be reconciled because they were blood covenant laws.

I am speaking of the corporate provision of salvation that only Jesus could effect through His once-for-all sacrifice of Himself. That is what reconciled people to God:
2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died;
15 and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.
16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
The activities of the earthly high priest and the blood of animals were ineffectual. They were only shadows that pointed to the reality of Christ, our true High Priest. Only Jesus' blood could really make atonement:
Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.
2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins?
3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year.
4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
The law could never reconcile anyone to God; on the contrary, it showed people how far away from God they were and how sinful they were. Romans 5 says that the law "came in so that transgression would increase":
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.
12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.
20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Reconciliation was accomplished only through the death of Christ, not by obeying the law, which no one could do.
 
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Sophia7

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Sophia,

Amen and amen.

The following Scripture has been a guide to me, through the Spirit.

Rom 5:8-11
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. KJV

Joe

Joe, those verses have guided my thinking on this, also. I quoted them in my follow-up post before I read your post. :)
 
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Sophia7

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'We' in the passages is us, you and me not the people who lived before Christ died for our atonement. Before the atonement the law stated what was required for man to move between states of cleanness and uncleaness. You do understand the meaning of the word 'now' in the passages you quoted above, right?

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


That verse can't refer to only those of us who have lived after Christ's death. We, "you and me," were not around to be described in the past tense as "yet sinners" when Christ died, so that verse has to include those who lived before that. Christ's death was a one-time event, but its effects extend to both the past and the future.
 
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AzA

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There is also the pesky reality that enshrining a "wrong" in a law serves the purpose of calling attention to it. Whereas if there were no such law, it's possible people would attend to other things, if there is a law about the wrong, you guarantee it attention.

Romans 7:7 -- "Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, 'You shall not covet.' But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all desire."

If you have ever been invited out for a cold treat, you may understand how this works. Someone says ice cream. You imagine one flavor. Then they say "We have strawberry, vanilla, and mint." And you drool at all three. You only imagined one flavor. But then three were presented to you.

Law -- any law -- works in a similar way.
The speeding limit says 55. You, with your V8 engine*, drool.
You have just been presented with the option of driving under 55, at 55, or letting that engine eat up road. Oh, choices!

* Yes, Stormy, I'm talking to you.
 
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StormyOne

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There is also the pesky reality that enshrining a "wrong" in a law serves the purpose of calling attention to it. Whereas if there were no such law, it's possible people would attend to other things, if there is a law about the wrong, you guarantee it attention.

Romans 7:7 -- "Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, 'You shall not covet.' But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all desire."

If you have ever been invited out for a cold treat, you may understand how this works. Someone says ice cream. You imagine one flavor. Then they say "We have strawberry, vanilla, and mint." And you drool at all three. You only imagined one flavor. But then three were presented to you.

Law -- any law -- works in a similar way.
The speeding limit says 55. You, with your V8 engine*, drool.
You have just been presented with the option of driving under 55, at 55, or letting that engine eat up road. Oh, choices!

* Yes, Stormy, I'm talking to you.
Driving 55-100mph is the usual option of choice...
 
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