Are you a Christian? (10 Questions + 1)

[jonas3]

1. Do you believe that the gospel is God’s promise to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone towards His people alone?

2. Do you believe that every regenerate person (i.e. a Christian) believes the gospel?

3. Do you believe that it is impossible for a regenerate person (i.e. a Christian) to confess a false gospel?

4. Do you believe that God does not desire to save everyone without exception?

5. Do you believe that all who profess that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception (i.e. universal atonement) are unregenerate?

6. Do you believe that God does not make faith in Jesus Christ a prerequisite to being regenerated?

7. Do you believe that all who believe in a false gospel are not saved (i.e. regenerate)?

8. Do you believe that the theological system known as Arminianism is a false gospel?

9. Do you believe that all who believe in Arminianism are not saved (i.e. regenerate)?

10. Do you believe that all who profess that universal atonement advocates are saved are themselves unregenerate (i.e. not saved)?

+1. Do you believe that you were unregenerate (i.e. not saved) when you believed in a false gospel of conditional salvation?



If your answer to any of the above questions is a "NO", then you are not a Christian (i.e. you’re unregenerate), because you do not believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. You may even object, and say that you do believe in the true gospel; however, if you maintain that any of the above questions should be answered as “NO”, then you really do not understand (i.e. believe) the gospel. You may not comprehend how or why this is true about you, but that is irrelevant, because the gospel is hidden unto you, and you are currently lost (2Cor 4:3). Your only hope for salvation is that God causes you to repent and believe the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now, if your answer to one or more of the above questions is a "NO", and you wish to discuss the reasons why you think it should be a "NO", then please restate the question(s) and answer the following with each:

1. What are the reasons you disagree with the question?
2. Why don't you think it's a denial of the gospel to disagree with the question?

-jonas

 

[AndOne]

What specifically is your definition of Arminianism? That would affect my stand on questions 8 and 9.

 

[seekingpurity047]

If your answer to any of the above questions is a "NO", then you are not a Christian (i.e. you’re unregenerate), because you do not believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. You may even object, and say that you do believe in the true gospel; however, if you maintain that any of the above questions should be answered as “NO”, then you really do not understand (i.e. believe) the gospel. You may not comprehend how or why this is true about you, but that is irrelevant, because the gospel is hidden unto you, and you are currently lost (2Cor 4:3). Your only hope for salvation is that God causes you to repent and believe the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now, if your answer to one or more of the above questions is a "NO", and you wish to discuss the reasons why you think it should be a "NO", then please restate the question(s) and answer the following with each:

1. What are the reasons you disagree with the question?
2. Why don't you think it's a denial of the gospel to disagree with the question?

-jonas

So wait... I'm not a christian? Wow... Last time that i heard... in order to be a christian, you needed to apply this.

Romans 10:9

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I think that verse pretty well sums it up.

Randy

 

[jonas3]

What specifically is your definition of Arminianism? That would affect my stand on questions 8 and 9.

I will say that the theological system known as "Arminianism" is defined by the free-will doctrines that include belief in one or more of the following:

1. Partial Depravity
2. Conditional Election
3. Universal Atonement
4. Resistible Grace
5. Conditional Perseverance

If anyone believes in any of those doctrines he or she can rightly be called an "Arminian". If someone believes in free-will or conditional salvation in any form, then he or she can rightly be called an "Arminian".

-jonas

 

[edie19]

So wait... I'm not a christian? Wow... Last time that i heard... in order to be a christian, you needed to apply this.

Romans 10:9

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I think that verse pretty well sums it up.

Randy

I'm with you Randy. There will be folks in heaven with very different doctrine than we have - some will be Arminian, some LDS, some Roman Catholics, some Jehovah's Witnesses, and some Calvinists. And there will be folks who espouse any of the above who won't be in heaven. Why - because they are these things in name only.

Do I believe the reformed perspective is correct? You bet. Scripture teaches us that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for God's glory. But, if a person confesses Christ as Lord and Savior, repents of their sin and believes - they will be in heaven.

There's a thread in the same reformed forum regarding "what are our faults in light of our theology." Well, Jonas, questioning someone else's faith to the point that we're calling them a false Christian would be right up there.

 

[reformedfan]

JWs & LDS won't be in heaven if they don't repent of their unbiblical view of Christ.

& Jonas I'm with you on some of those, but not on the Arminian stuff. befopre i was saved i believed, to qan extent, a false Gospel, but not in the way i believe now & the armin stuff is irrelv. Some Calvinists can be unregenerate too, if they think their Calvinism will save them on the day of wrath.

 

[Jon_]

1. Do you believe that the gospel is God’s promise to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone towards His people alone?

Yes.

2. Do you believe that every regenerate person (i.e. a Christian) believes the gospel?

Yes.

3. Do you believe that it is impossible for a regenerate person (i.e. a Christian) to confess a false gospel?

Define "confess." Is it possible for a regenerate person to be deceived by a false gospel? Yes. Is it possible for a regenerate person to be deceived by such a gospel for the length of his days? No.

4. Do you believe that God does not desire to save everyone without exception?

Yes.

5. Do you believe that all who profess that Jesus Christ died for everyone without exception (i.e. universal atonement) are unregenerate?

The deception mentioned in answer three applies to this point as well.

6. Do you believe that God does not require His people to have faith in Jesus Christ before they are regenerated?

No. God commands all men to have faith in Jesus Christ.

7. Do you believe that all who believe in a false gospel are not saved (i.e. regenerate)?

I am in no position to judge what another man truly believes in his heart.

8. Do you believe that the theological system known as Arminianism is a false gospel?

Yes.

9. Do you believe that all who believe in Arminianism are not saved (i.e. regenerate)?

This question is much too vague. If you mean to ask if someone is saved if their faith is placed in the Arminian theological system, then the easy answer is "No, they are not saved," because no system of theology can save. The question becomes vary complicated when one considers that most "Arminians" are incredibly inconsistent in their application of the doctrine, especially when grilled intensely on the necessary implications of it.

Nearly every Arminian I have ever confronted acknowledges their sinfulness before God and their need for grace and faith in Jesus Christ to be saved, even though they don't realize that Arminianism leaves no room for real grace.

10. Do you believe that all who profess that universal atonement advocates are saved are themselves unregenerate (i.e. not saved)?

Universalists that hold to the doctrine that all people will be saved are unregenerate, yes. Those who uphold the doctrine of unlimited atonement are either (1) deceived—and if regenerate, will only be so for such a span as God is willing—or, (2) ignorant of the real implications of their doctrine. These implications they steadfastly deny, which means that they realize how erroneous the doctrine is, but they adhere to it out of a pious desire to not see God made the "Author of sin." This is commendable, but what they don't realize is that they are being irrational and that the problem they are trying to avoid simply does not exist.

The same is true of those who uphold the "sincere offer" of the Gospel. The necessary implication of such a doctrine is the affirmation of an unlimited atonement. That is why I am opposed to it.

+1. Do you believe that you were unregenerate (i.e. not saved) when you believed in a false gospel of conditional salvation?

I never believed in a gospel of conditional salvation.

If your answer to any of the above questions is a "NO", then you are not a Christian (i.e. you’re unregenerate), because you do not believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. You may even object, and say that you do believe in the true gospel; however, if you maintain that any of the above questions should be answered as “NO”, then you really do not understand (i.e. believe) the gospel. You may not comprehend how or why this is true about you, but that is irrelevant, because the gospel is hidden unto you, and you are currently lost (2Cor 4:3). Your only hope for salvation is that God causes you to repent and believe the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Let's take a look at what you wrote above.

6. Do you believe that God does not require His people to have faith in Jesus Christ before they are regenerated?

Now, let's see what the Bible says:

(Acts 17:30 AV) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
​

Let's look at another passage:

(Gal. 1:9 AV) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

​

If this is your version of the "true gospel," then I say you are accursed as testified by the Scriptures, and an unregenerate soul standing in the wrath of God. The Lord commands that you repent and believe on his Son Jesus Christ, which is the only name given by which we might be saved. Acknowledge your sins and believe in his atonement for them and judgment will be spared.

Do not, and it will be spared not.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[jonas3]

I'm with you Randy. There will be folks in heaven with very different doctrine than we have - some will be Arminian, some LDS, some Roman Catholics, some Jehovah's Witnesses, and some Calvinists. And there will be folks who espouse any of the above who won't be in heaven. Why - because they are these things in name only.

On the contrary, their will only be regenerate people in heaven, and only regenerate people believe the gospel; therefore, their will only be people who believe the gospel who are in heaven. Everyone else, who does not believe the gospel, is lost according to 2Cor 4:3-4, which states, "3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." - 2Cor 4:3-4.

Arminians, and Catholics, and everyone else you mentioned, do not believe the gospel. Catholics, like Arminians, believe this regarding the atonement,

“...The Church, following the apostles, teaches that Christ died for all men without exception: ‘There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.’” – Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 605.

What I am not saying is that an Arminian, or a Catholic, or a Jehovah’s Witness cannot BE saved (i.e. regenerated), but that they are currently NOT saved (i.e. regenerated), while believing in the damnable heresies that their aforementioned religious system ascribes to. When God saves a person from one of these wicked religious systems, they NO LONGER are apart of that religious system. They come out from that religious system, and they now profess a belief in the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Do I believe the reformed perspective is correct? You bet. Scripture teaches us that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone for God's glory. But, if a person confesses Christ as Lord and Savior, repents of their sin and believes - they will be in heaven.

None of the things that you mentioned; namely, confessing Christ as Lord and Savior, or repenting of sin, will result in a person going to heaven. Not one of those things is a prerequisite for salvation. The ONLY thing that will result in the salvation of an individual is if God regenerates that person, and imputes to that person the righteousness of Christ. When, and if, a person is regenerated, and given true faith, they immediately confesses a belief in the true gospel, which is the belief that Jesus Christ has secured salvation for His people alone through His atoning blood and His imputed righteousness. When someone is regenerated they are said to be “converted” from the kingdom of darkness, to the kingdom of Christ (i.e. they are now a Christian), and these people alone have redemption from their sins through His blood, as it is written, "13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins" - Col 1:13-14. No one is currently saved (i.e. regenerated) who lacks the knowledge of the gospel (please read Romans 10:2-4). Faith believes that Jesus Christ met all the conditions for salvation; and therefore, faith (or repentance) by definition cannot be a prerequisite for salvation.

There's a thread in the same reformed forum regarding "what are our faults in light of our theology." Well, Jonas, questioning someone else's faith to the point that we're calling them a false Christian would be right up there.

A Christian (i.e. a regenerated person) is not in error concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christians are not in error regarding the gospel because they did not learn it through human endeavors, but by the Spirit of God upon regeneration. Knowledge of the gospel saves no one, but a saved person has knowledge of the gospel, as it is written,

"16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." - Mark 16:16.

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - Jn 3:18.

"16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." - Ro 1:16-17.

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" - 2Th 1:8.

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" - 1Pet 4:17.

"9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." - 2Jn 1:9-11.

-jonas

 

[Beoga]

I know I don't have a great sense of smell, but am I the only one that smells a hyper-calvinist in our midst, similar to that of those in Outside the Camp (http://www.outsidethecamp.org/)?

 

[jonas3]

3. Do you believe that it is impossible for a regenerate person (i.e. a Christian) to confess a false gospel?

Define "confess." Is it possible for a regenerate person to be deceived by a false gospel? Yes. Is it possible for a regenerate person to be deceived by such a gospel for the length of his days? No.

Absolutely wrong. Do you have any Scripture to backup your claim?

6. Do you believe that God does not require His people to have faith in Jesus Christ before they are regenerated?

No. God commands all men to have faith in Jesus Christ.

I did not say "commands", I said "require". Is faith a requirement that precedes regeneration? Of course faith is a commandment, as it is written, "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ..." - 1Jn 3:23. And who believes on the name of His Son Jesus Christ?

7. Do you believe that all who believe in a false gospel are not saved (i.e. regenerate)?

I am in no position to judge what another man truly believes in his heart.

You should read my post in this forum entitled, "Are Christians commanded to judge?".

9. Do you believe that all who believe in Arminianism are not saved (i.e. regenerate)?

This question is much too vague. If you mean to ask if someone is saved if their faith is placed in the Arminian theological system, then the easy answer is "No, they are not saved," because no system of theology can save. The question becomes vary complicated when one considers that most "Arminians" are incredibly inconsistent in their application of the doctrine, especially when grilled intensely on the necessary implications of it.

Nearly every Arminian I have ever confronted acknowledges their sinfulness before God and their need for grace and faith in Jesus Christ to be saved, even though they don't realize that Arminianism leaves no room for real grace.

The question is not vague at all, and you know exactly what it means. You just like to maintain a comfortable gray zone before all men.

10. Do you believe that all who profess that universal atonement advocates are saved are themselves unregenerate (i.e. not saved)?

Universalists that hold to the doctrine that all people will be saved are unregenerate, yes. Those who uphold the doctrine of unlimited atonement are either (1) deceived—and if regenerate, will only be so for such a span as God is willing—or, (2) ignorant of the real implications of their doctrine. These implications they steadfastly deny, which means that they realize how erroneous the doctrine is, but they adhere to it out of a pious desire to not see God made the "Author of sin." This is commendable, but what they don't realize is that they are being irrational and that the problem they are trying to avoid simply does not exist.

The same is true of those who uphold the "sincere offer" of the Gospel. The necessary implication of such a doctrine is the affirmation of an unlimited atonement. That is why I am opposed to it.

You have absolutely no Scriptural evidence to support your first point (1) above. As for point (2) they are definitely ignorant of their doctrine, deadly ignorant (i.e. blind (i.e. lost (i.e. unregenerate))).

+1. Do you believe that you were unregenerate (i.e. not saved) when you believed in a false gospel of conditional salvation?

I never believed in a gospel of conditional salvation.

Wrong, everyone believes in conditional salvation before regeneration. Please read Romans 10:2-4.

6. Do you believe that God does not require His people to have faith in Jesus Christ before they are regenerated?


Now, let's see what the Bible says:



(Acts 17:30 AV) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:



Let's look at another passage:(Gal. 1:9 AV) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I never said that God does not command all men every where to repent. Where did I use the word "command"?

If this is your version of the "true gospel," then I say you are accursed as testified by the Scriptures, and an unregenerate soul standing in the wrath of God. The Lord commands that you repent and believe on his Son Jesus Christ, which is the only name given by which we might be saved. Acknowledge your sins and believe in his atonement for them and judgment will be spared.

Do not, and it will be spared not.

Very harsh words for someone who is, "in no position to judge what another man truly believes in his heart." Hypocrite!

I believe in His atonement, and declared this belief in my post to this forum entitled, "What do Christians believe about the atonement and the gospel?". YOU are the one who disagreed with it, perhaps you should go read that post again.

-jonas

 

[Jon_]

Absolutely wrong. Do you have any Scripture to backup your claim?

Sure do.

(Ps. 37:23, 24 AV) The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24) Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

(Ezek. 33:11 AV) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

(2 Pt. 3:9 AV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
​

There are, of course, many many more. But even one citation is sufficient to defeat your premises. (Also note that I have been graced with the true understanding of Ezek. 33:11 and 2 Pt. 3:9 and would not even begin to apply them to the reprobate. These verses clearly speak of the elect and the elect only. As such, this only reinforces my point.)

I did not say "commands", I said "require". Is faith a requirement that precedes regeneration? Of course faith is a commandment, as it is written, "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ..." - 1Jn 3:23. And who believes on the name of His Son Jesus Christ?

I'd certainly like to see the sense in which you mean God requires and how it does not parallel God commands. God requires what he commands and he commands what he requires. It's going to take some serious liguistic acrobatics to get out of this one. If you conceed the point and change it to desires, then I will readily side with you—God does not desire the repentance of all men.

But he certainly commands it. Let me ask you this, does God require our obedience, but not command it? Or vice versa? How do you suppose that?

You should read my post in this forum entitled, "Are Christians commanded to judge?".

I did.

The question is not vague at all, and you know exactly what it means. You just like to maintain a comfortable gray zone before all men.

No, I like to be very specific, which you should as well when you're so freely judging the souls of other men. Now tell me this, if a man can make a false confession of the gospel, is it not possible that a man can make a false confession of a false gospel (thereby still believing the true gospel with his heart, but being ignorant of its true nature)? If not, then prove it.

If belief in a false gospel is sin (which it is), then it follows it is no more unforgiveable than any other sin (apart from blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, of course). Therefore, those who are deceived by a false gospel sin by way of their profession of it. God can and does forgive belief in a false gospel, and those who are his will be upheld with his hand and will not forever forsake the true Gospel (see above proof texts).

You have absolutely no Scriptural evidence to support your first point (1) above. As for point (2) they are definitely ignorant of their doctrine, deadly ignorant (i.e. blind (i.e. lost (i.e. unregenerate))).

(1) is proved above. (2) you are misconstruing, but of course you realize that and did so intentionally.

Wrong, everyone believes in conditional salvation before regeneration. Please read Romans 10:2-4.

That's a coerced interpretation if I've ever seen one. Those people who have not received knowledge of the Lord certainly do not pursue conditional salvation before him. Paul is here referring to the hypocritcal scribes and Pharisees, who know the law and do it in their deeds, but not in their hearts (not of faith).

You're reading Romans 10:2-4 as if Romans 1:18-32 is somehow no longer applicable. Those Gentiles who had not received the oracles did not know the true God via special revelation and worshiped idols. Now, the same is true of the Jews in that they worshiped idols and not the one true God, but nevertheless, they had the Holy Scriptures committed to them that they might not walk in darkness. The Jews had the special revelation necessary unto salvation, whereas the Gentiles did not. General revelation alone is not sufficient to save.

Your argument implies that it is, which again, if it remains unqualified, would allude to your teaching of a false gospel.

I never said that God does not command all men every where to repent. Where did I use the word "command"?

Show me the distinction between what God commands and what God requires. There is none. You're backpedelling.

Very harsh words for someone who is, "in no position to judge what another man truly believes in his heart." Hypocrite!

Note the hypothetical tense in which it was presented: "If this is your version. . . ." I honestly do not think that you accept the full implications of your doctrine, and that is your saving grace, same as many "Arminians." They refuse the true implications of their doctrine, which is evidence of their regeneration. When you confront them with the truth of salvation by works when it is conditioned upon faith, they flatly refuse and say that salvation is by grace through faith alone. They are manifestly inconsistent because they know the truth in their heart, they are merely ignorant of the doctrine of God. Those of us who have been granted the wisdom of it are obligated to teach them otherwise.

I question if you truly have the patience or desire to such as mentioned. Do you truly teach the doctrines of grace, or do you simply dismiss anyone who disagrees with you as unregenerate and in need of salvific faith? If so, then there remains no room for doctrine in your gnostic religion because any lack of doctrine would be sufficient to condemn.

There is no distinction between non-Gospel teaching and Gospel teaching in the Scriptures. The entire Bible is written about Christ. It is the special revelation of the Holy Spirit concerning him. The whole of Scripture is the Gospel. For you to assert that a failure to believe any point of the Gospel truly is to show oneself unregenerate is to say that any failure of doctrine at any point in the Bible is sufficient to reveal onself as unregenerate.

That is not what the Scriptures teach.

I believe in His atonement, and declared this belief in my post to this forum entitled, "What do Christians believe about the atonement and the gospel?". YOU are the one who disagreed with it, perhaps you should go read that post again.

As I said above, your understanding of the Gospel is horribly flawed. All of Scripture is interrelated into the Gospel message as the whole of Scripture is about Jesus Christ. For you to pick and choose which doctrinal points are necessary for a "true belief" in the Gospel is to draw distinctions where there are none. The Bible is clear that faith in Jesus Christ that bears fruit unto righteousness is true faith. I know plenty of (inconsistent) Arminians that fall under that category. I also know of (consistent) Arminians that do not fall under that category.

You have no Scriptural support for your revisionist interpretation of the Gospel and hence are judging souls at your own peril. I exhort you in the name of Christ to abandon this deceitful judgment and to confess your sins to the Father and those whom you have wronged, for you are sinfully judging men, which fruit is only wrought of a sinful nature. I encourage you to repent and make your faith known.

Furthermore, I encouarge you to stay away from Outside the Camp. They are a brood of vipers, a den of asps, a pride of lions, walking about seeking whom they may devour. Do not be pulled into their message of judgment and gnostic salvation. Those who have faith in Christ indeed will be saved and you are no man to judge what is in the hearts of men.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[edie19]

JWs & LDS won't be in heaven if they don't repent of their unbiblical view of Christ.

I recognize that. My point is that there are folks within those sects who know the truth, for whatever reason they haven't broken with those sects yet. Along the same line there are folks who sit in worship services each and every Sunday, maybe right next to us, who are unregenerate. They say all the right things but have not been truly converted.

Only God sees our hearts.

 

[reformedfan]

i disagree. Is there maybe true born again believers, staying in cults to witness to their cult friends? i doubt it. have you ever heard of anyone like that?

 

[edie19]

i disagree. Is there maybe true born again believers, staying in cults to witness to their cult friends? i doubt it. have you ever heard of anyone like that?

I don't know - I just think that we may well be surprised at who we meet (or don't meet) in heaven. No reason other than it's just a feeling I have.

 

[Foundthelight]

This is the Gospel;

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words.

Act 2:15 For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.

Act 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:

Act 2:17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

Act 2:18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.

Act 2:19 And I will show wonders in the heavens above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;

Act 2:20 the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.'

Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know--

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Act 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

Act 2:25 For David says concerning him, "'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;

Act 2:26 therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope.

Act 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.

Act 2:28 You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'

Act 2:29 "Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.

Act 2:30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne,

Act 2:31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Act 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.

Act 2:33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing.

Act 2:34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, "'The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand,

Act 2:35 until I make your enemies your footstool.'

Act 2:36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

Did these three thousand even have a concept of Reformed Vs Arminian?

Act 2:41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

What of Cornelius?

Act 10:30 And Cornelius said, "Four days ago, about this hour, I was praying in my house at the ninth hour, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing

Act 10:31 and said, 'Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God.

Act 10:32 Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.'

Act 10:33 So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here in the presence of God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord."

Act 10:34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,

Act 10:35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

Act 10:36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),

Act 10:37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed:

Act 10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

Act 10:39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,

Act 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,

Act 10:41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.

Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.

Act 10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Act 10:44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.

Act 10:45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.

Act 10:46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,

Act 10:47 "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

It looks like Cornelius heard the same Gospel as was preached on the day of Pentecost.

How about these people in Antioch?

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.


And, finally;

Act 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?

Act 15:11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

To say that we must have a deep understanding of theology to be saved is absurd! What is required is the gift of faith from the Holy Spirit by God's Grace. Whether or not you understand the theological basis for that faith has nothing to do with it.

Peter didn't preach theology, he preached the Gospel. People were and are saved through hearing the Gospel.

To say that one must have a deeper theological understanding in order to have one's salvation recognized by you is the height of impudence and denies the Holy Spirit. You are creating a new law and putting a new yoke around the necks of God's Elect.

Only God knows who is Elect. I am content to leave that up to him.

Rom 14:1 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions.

Rom 14:10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God;

Rom 14:11 for it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God."

Rom 14:12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Rom 14:13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother.


Nuff said.


(all scripture is taken from the ESV translation. For those who are KJV only, I invite you to compare)

 

[edie19]

To say that we must have a deep understanding of theology to be saved is absurd! What is required is the gift of faith from the Holy Spirit by God's Grace. Whether or not you understand the theological basis for that faith has nothing to do with it.

Peter didn't preach theology, he preached the Gospel. People were and are saved through hearing the Gospel.

To say that one must have a deeper theological understanding in order to have one's salvation recognized by you is the height of impudence and denies the Holy Spirit. You are creating a new law and putting a new yoke around the necks of God's Elect.

Only God knows who is Elect. I am content to leave that up to him.

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. How many of us understood any of the complexities of doctrine when God called us? Rather, at least in my case, I understood that Jesus the Christ went to the cross, suffered God's wrath for my sins, then rose again to sit at the right hand of the Father. That was sufficient - the details of the theology is gravy.

 

[jonas3]

Sure do.

The original question was this: 3. Do you believe that it is impossible for a regenerate person (i.e. a Christian) to confess a false gospel?

The Scripture verses you quoted below are your “defense” of the idea that a regenerate person can be deceived by a false gospel (i.e. confess a false gospel); however, do these Scriptures verses say or imply anything to that effect? I will reiterate the verses from the Bible version you used in your previous post,

(Ps. 37:23, 24 AV) The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24) Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand.

This verse is not at all speaking of a regenerate person falling into professing damnable heresies. A regenerate person, who knows the gospel, does not fall into blasphemies against Christ and His gospel. What this verse IS speaking of is the perseverance of the saints. Though one of God's regenerate people falls into temptations and sins, God does not damn him at last (i.e. utterly cast him down), but preserves him unto the end. This is true of God’s people alone, because only God's people have every single sin past, present, and future paid for by the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. As it is written, “In whom we [God’s people] have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins” - Col 1:14.

(Ezek. 33:11 AV) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

I agree with that Scripture, but how does that imply that a REGENERATE person can confess a false gospel? It doesn’t. Because of the fallen nature of man (i.e. total depravity), all of mankind is dead and sins, does not seek God, and is without any spiritual understanding, as it is written, “But the natural [unregenerate] man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” – 1Cor 2:14. If the Lord turns one of His elect (Jer 31:18) from his wicked ways (i.e. regenerates him), then that man is no longer “wicked” in the eyes of God, for he has been turned onto the Lord, and he will be caused to walk in His statues, and believe His gospel. The elect are wicked before regeneration, but they are not wicked after regeneration having now had the righteousness of Christ imputed to them and given faith in the true gospel.

(2 Pt. 3:9 AV) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Again, I’m not sure how this implies that a regenerate person can profess a false gospel, because it doesn’t say or imply anything like that. The Lord is longsuffering to whom? That is, “to us-ward”, and who is that exactly? It is God’s elect. God’s elect, before regeneration, are ignorant of the gospel, but upon regeneration, they are given the knowledge of the gospel, and will thence no longer perish. God is longsuffering to US, not willing that ANY of US should perish.

Furthermore, if the word “ANY” meant everyone without exception, then this passage is saying that God is postponing judgment day because He wants everyone without exception to be saved. However, since everyone without exception will not be saved, then judgment day will be postponed indefinitely. Also, those who say that God is not willing that any without exception should perish believe in an eternally disappointed god who cannot carry out what he wishes. The true and living God does whatsoever He pleases (Psalm 115:3).

There are, of course, many many more. But even one citation is sufficient to defeat your premises. (Also note that I have been graced with the true understanding of Ezek. 33:11 and 2 Pt. 3:9 and would not even begin to apply them to the reprobate. These verses clearly speak of the elect and the elect only. As such, this only reinforces my point.)

Yes, those verses are speaking of the elect. Do you understand the concept between being elect and being regenerated? A person is elect his entire life, but not regenerated his entire life. Before an elect person is regenerated he is, “…by nature the children of wrath, even as others.” – Eph 2:3. All of God’s elect, before regeneration, believe in an idol-god who cannot save, but all of God’s elect, after regeneration, believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. I encourage you to keep this concept in mind when reading Scripture.

I'd certainly like to see the sense in which you mean God requires and how it does not parallel God commands. God requires what he commands and he commands what he requires. It's going to take some serious liguistic acrobatics to get out of this one. If you conceed the point and change it to desires, then I will readily side with you—God does not desire the repentance of all men.

But he certainly commands it. Let me ask you this, does God require our obedience, but not command it? Or vice versa? How do you suppose that?

The original question was this: 6. Do you believe that God does not require His people to have faith in Jesus Christ before they are regenerated?

Are you honestly saying that you do not understand the meaning of the question? Are you trying to defend the view that God DOES make faith in Jesus Christ a requirement BEFORE someone is regenerated? You are correct in stating that what God requires is what God commands. However, question #6 is NOT stating that faith is not commanded of everyone, or required of everyone, for God does command everyone to keep His commandments. The question uses the word “require” to signify “requirement”; and therefore, is attempting to expose whether or not one believes that faith is a prerequisite for regeneration (i.e. does faith precede regeneration, or does regeneration precede faith). Do you really not understand the intent of the question? I will admit that the question could perhaps be worded better this way:

Possible rewording of #6. Do you believe that God does not make faith in Jesus Christ a prerequisite to being regenerated?

Nevertheless, the original wording said the same thing. Also, I clarified for you what was being said in the original question in my last post. I do believe that God commands all men without exception everywhere to keep His commandments. I have made this clear; however, God does NOT make commandment keeping a prerequisite (i.e. a requirement) for salvation. Do you understand the difference between the two concepts? If you do, then please discuss the matter as if you understand the question, as well as my position on the fact that God commands everyone, and the intent behind the question. I don’t mind discussing things, but I don’t want to repeat myself over and over again.

No, I like to be very specific, which you should as well when you're so freely judging the souls of other men. Now tell me this, if a man can make a false confession of the gospel, is it not possible that a man can make a false confession of a false gospel (thereby still believing the true gospel with his heart, but being ignorant of its true nature)? If not, then prove it.

If belief in a false gospel is sin (which it is), then it follows it is no more unforgiveable than any other sin (apart from blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, of course). Therefore, those who are deceived by a false gospel sin by way of their profession of it. God can and does forgive belief in a false gospel, and those who are his will be upheld with his hand and will not forever forsake the true Gospel (see above proof texts).

The original question was this: 9. Do you believe that all who believe in Arminianism are not saved (i.e. regenerate)?

Jon, I would take your question very seriously if you truly did not understand what Arminianism is. Furthermore, because I do take this question seriously I responded to what Arminianism is in post #4. If someone really doesn’t know what it means, and they are trying to understand what is being said, then I will most certainly give clarification in order to be more specific. Considering post #4 as well, do you need any further clarification?

In response to your second paragraph, belief in a false gospel is damnable. If a person believes a false gospel they are unregenerate. Again, this does not mean that a person who believes in a false gospel can’t be regenerated; it only means that they are not currently regenerated. Everyone before regeneration is without understanding, as Scripture says, If – our – gospel – be – hid, - it – is – hid – to – them – that – are – lost. (2Cor 4:3).

Note the hypothetical tense in which it was presented: "If this is your version. . . ." I honestly do not think that you accept the full implications of your doctrine, and that is your saving grace, same as many "Arminians."

On the contrary, I DO understand the full implications of the doctrines of grace. In fact, the questions that I put forth are trying to state precisely what the implications of a belief in the true gospel are. That was the whole point of the questions (i.e. showing the implications).

There is no distinction between non-Gospel teaching and Gospel teaching in the Scriptures. The entire Bible is written about Christ. It is the special revelation of the Holy Spirit concerning him. The whole of Scripture is the Gospel. For you to assert that a failure to believe any point of the Gospel truly is to show oneself unregenerate is to say that any failure of doctrine at any point in the Bible is sufficient to reveal onself as unregenerate.

Hold on. That is entirely not true. I NEVER said, nor do I believe (as you believe), that, “The whole of Scripture is the Gospel”. That is not true. The gospel is the good news of God to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone. In the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed (Ro 1:17). The gospel is not the, “whole of Scripture”. I am not saying that the gospel is not throughout the whole of Scripture, for it is; however, the gospel is NOT THE whole of Scripture. The gospel is not every verse in the Bible.

Furthermore, I encouarge you to stay away from Outside the Camp. They are a brood of vipers, a den of asps, a pride of lions, walking about seeking whom they may devour. Do not be pulled into their message of judgment and gnostic salvation. Those who have faith in Christ indeed will be saved and you are no man to judge what is in the hearts of men.

Since you believe that no man can judge what is in the hearts of men, then why and how can you judge me? Do I not have, "faith in Christ"?

-jonas

 

[oworm]

Hold on. That is entirely not true. I NEVER said, nor do I believe (as you believe), that, “The whole of Scripture is the Gospel”. That is not true. The gospel is the good news of God to save His people conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone. In the gospel, the righteousness of God is revealed (Ro 1:17). The gospel is not the, “whole of Scripture”. I am not saying that the gospel is not throughout the whole of Scripture, for it is; however, the gospel is NOT THE whole of Scripture. The gospel is not every verse in the Bible.-jonas

Actually the gospel is declared throughout scripture. It is declared as early as Genesis 3:15 and everywhere after that is the historical account of Gods dealing with his people through out history culminating in the incarnation of God Himself.
The whole of scripture has as its ultimate theme the salvation of God.The prophets declare it.the law declares it and the historical narative is the story within which it is declared. A thorough and studious reading and understanding of the whole of scripture unfolds the gospel in all its glorious beauty. To think of it in any other way is to demean and minituarise the whole counsel of Gods dealings with His people.
The gospel opens with the words "In the beggining" Gen 1:1
The gospel finds its embodiment in the words "In the beggining was the word" John 1:1
The gospel is fully and gloriously realised in the words 'Surely I am coming soon' Amen Come Lord Jesus" Rev 21:20

 

[oworm]

Jonas- I'm discerning that by your general demeanor you have come here in a temper which is somewhat less than the exhortations of :
1 Peter 3:15
2CO 10:1
GAL 5:23
PHP 4:5
COL 3:12
1TI 6:11
1PE 3:15
Far be it from me to judge as I,to my shame; am prone to such an attitude at times myself. I need to be aware that I think I am standing when I know in a heartbeat I can fall. I would therefore encourage you to read the scripture references quoted above and consider them prayerfully on your knees and in humility before Him who weighs our motives and knows our intentions.
If you feel you have the embodiment of all truth as laid out in the gospel and are convinced that you are a teacher of such then I would remind you that true teachers are marked out by their humility and utter dependance on the Lord.
I trust you will consider these words as a brotherly exhortation and that we can continue to edify and exhort each other in a spirit of true humility reflecting the attitude of Him who according to: Php 2:6-8
"being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

but made himself nothing,

taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself

and became obedient to death--

even death on a cross!"

And in whos attitude we are to be a reflection according to PHP 2:5

 

[frumanchu]

If someone believes in free-will or conditional salvation in any form, then he or she can rightly be called an "Arminian".

I believe in free will in some form. That doesn't mean I'm an Arminian.

Perhaps you could define for us what you mean by "free-will"