Are you a Christian? (10 Questions + 1)

[CoffeeSwirls]

Amen. There is no such thing as a unreachable person and there is no such thing as a closed border. I have on mp3 a sermon by John Piper, called Doing Missions When Dying Is Gain

You can listen to it by clicking the link. Odd, now this post is coming out bold and I can't turn it off. OK, just know that I'm not yelling here.

I have managed to compress the file down to 11.1 MB without significant loss to the quality of the recording. The sermon itself is 48 minutes, 49 seconds, but the time will pass quickly. This sermon is Piper at his best, and I wish the sermon was much longer. I do ask that you right click on the link in case you want to listen to it again. It is a good enough sermon that you likely will want to listen to it frequently.

A good sermon is like a productive study in the word. It changes you. It changes your outlook on life. It causes you to want to conform to the will of God in all things. This is such a sermon. Please download it and listen to it. Please pray over the points in the sermon, that God would move your heart toward missions, whether you decide to go into the field, want to be bolder in your personal evangelism, or more trusting that God will provide for your needs as you support those missionaries who leave everything behind for the joy of the gospel message, only to look back years later and insist that they never missed a thing.

 

[Fatty]

I am sorry CoffeeSwirls, I was only able to listen to the first few minutes of the message, then I heard something that shocked me, and grieved my Spirit very deeply.

During the first few moments, I have to admit, I did enjoy what he was saying, but then he got to the part about the missionaries who were killed by some native tribesman somewhere (I don't remember the exact nation).

He said that one of the missionaries sons believed God killed his father, THAT statement of absolute unbelief, a young man, falsely judging, and hatefully condemnning God for the death of his father, caused me, by the unction of the Holy Ghost, to immediately make a definite determination in my heart that I could not, and I certainly would not listen any further to the message this man was preaching.

IF I had been sitting in the sanctuary of the place he was speaking in, I would have immediately gotten up from my seat, and left, even if my departure would have interupted his message.

In The Old Testament God killed men, for their disobedience, and God caused men to kill men, for the same reasons, BUT now in the New covenant of Grace God does not kill anyone, nor does God cause any person to kill any other person.

Jesus (who is God) said The thief (who is satan) comes to steal to kill and to destroy, then he said BUT I came that they (meaning ALL mankind) might have life, and that they might ALL have that life even more abundantly.

It is possible that some of what this man had to say might have been in some ways proper and good, but when a man who professes to Love God, stands in front of a crowd of people and tells those people that God is a vicious hateful violent murderer, anything Good he might have said after that, has no positive profitable Spiritual value of any kind whatsoever, and that is exactly what he said when he said that God killed those missionaries.

It broke my heart, and it should have broken every heart in that place that day.

Please don't be offended by this, I mean no personal offense to you, but I will not listen to any more of that message.

I know in my heart that there is a great need for faithful, compassionate missionaries to go to the places where the Message of the Gospel has not been preached, and I also am very well aware of the fact that there are not enough people who are willing to take that message where it needs to be taken.

But there is something that grieves my heart about those who have been taking a message to the mission fields.

I said a message because it is not always the Gospel message that has been taken to the mission fields.

Sadly, in many cases, the message that is being taken is denominational doctrinal teaching which is a greater attempt to convert people to denominational doctrinal beliefs rather than correctly laboring to bring the lost to Jesus.

It is not just one specific group who is guilty of this, almost every denomination, or religious group is, in some way, or another, guilty of this tragic act.

My wife and I are about to commit ourselves to a church where the Pastor and his wife have worked in the mission fields for over 30 years, going to many foreign nations to preach, without apology, and without compromise, the uncompromised, life changing, full Gospel message of the Cross Of Jesus Christ.

They now have workers in their home church who take care of business there while they are on the mission fields, IF God is calling ,my woife and I to go to these fields we will go, if not we will remain here and work in whatever capacity the church needs us to work in.

There are mission fields here in the USA as well as there are in foreign nations, there are mission fields in the cities, in the counties, and in every state, we will go where God tells us to go, do whatever God tells us to do, and say anything God tells us to say.

We will go according to Mark chapter 16 verses 15 through 20, and be confident that what Jesus said there is absolute, unchanging eternal Divine truth.

If either my wife, or I, are killed by another person, or group of persons, I am confident that neither of us will ever place the blame for the others death on God, and I am very confident that no person in the church we are about to become members of will do this either, I know this because we, and they truly Love God, and I am certain that God truly loves us enough that he certainly would not murder us.....

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Oh, but just after the shocking statement comes the support for it, and the Biblical and historical fact that the blood of the saints is how the gospel spreads across the whole world. A year or two later, the children of these missionaries went to the same tribe and the tribe realized that any message worth dying for and worth risking all for us a message they should hear out.

Rev 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

God has a number of people destined to be martyred for their faith. Peter and Paul were both told that they would learn to suffer for the name. All but one of the apostles died a horrific death. The stoning of Stephen ignited a scattering of Christians, who spread the gospel all over the known world. If God is sovereign and if He has decreed that there would be people who would leave their blood to witness to all the Earth the value of Christ, then in a sense you could say that His will played a part in this death.

I want to have a faith that will cause me to rejoice at being found worthy to suffer for the name, just as Peter and John did. I want to know that any thorn in the flesh only makes me lean on God all the more. Christianity as it is taught in most of the churches in North America is an abomination of comfort and psycho/emotional felt needs. Comfort and happiness is the promise placed before those who gather. This does not mirror the Biblical accounts or the historical accounts. When Christianity doesn't cost a person anything at all, there is no witness. When it costs a person everything, the world takes notice.

It's no wonder the world only notices Christianity during an election year in the states. Other than our numbers, we are irrelevant. For all of the means at our disposal, we do not touch the lives of people with any solution they can't find elsewhere.

God showed the Aucas how much Nate Saint would suffer for the name of Christ and that day was blessed when the gospel was next preached to them. I found a page on the Baptist Press about this: http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=21347

The title of this thread is "Are You a Christian." I view a Christian as one who is being conformed to the image of Christ. Some of us will have to be put to death by sinful men for the joy set before us, others will not. This message breaks my heart as well, but the story does not end with missionaries being speared on a beach. It ends with many of those tribesmen in glory right alongside them, all because they modelled the infinate value of the gospel and the love needed to share it with them.

 

[Fatty]

Oh, but just after the shocking statement comes the support for it, and the Biblical and historical fact that the blood of the saints is how the gospel spreads across the whole world. A year or two later, the children of these missionaries went to the same tribe and the tribe realized that any message worth dying for and worth risking all for us a message they should hear out.

Rev 6
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne. 10 They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

God has a number of people destined to be martyred for their faith. Peter and Paul were both told that they would learn to suffer for the name. All but one of the apostles died a horrific death. The stoning of Stephen ignited a scattering of Christians, who spread the gospel all over the known world. If God is sovereign and if He has decreed that there would be people who would leave their blood to witness to all the Earth the value of Christ, then in a sense you could say that His will played a part in this death.

I want to have a faith that will cause me to rejoice at being found worthy to suffer for the name, just as Peter and John did. I want to know that any thorn in the flesh only makes me lean on God all the more. Christianity as it is taught in most of the churches in North America is an abomination of comfort and psycho/emotional felt needs. Comfort and happiness is the promise placed before those who gather. This does not mirror the Biblical accounts or the historical accounts. When Christianity doesn't cost a person anything at all, there is no witness. When it costs a person everything, the world takes notice.

It's no wonder the world only notices Christianity during an election year in the states. Other than our numbers, we are irrelevant. For all of the means at our disposal, we do not touch the lives of people with any solution they can't find elsewhere.

God showed the Aucas how much Nate Saint would suffer for the name of Christ and that day was blessed when the gospel was next preached to them. I found a page on the Baptist Press about this: http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpnews.asp?ID=21347

The title of this thread is "Are You a Christian." I view a Christian as one who is being conformed to the image of Christ. Some of us will have to be put to death by sinful men for the joy set before us, others will not. This message breaks my heart as well, but the story does not end with missionaries being speared on a beach. It ends with many of those tribesmen in glory right alongside them, all because they modelled the infinate value of the gospel and the love needed to share it with them.

BUT God himself, did NOT murder those missionaries, God had Nothing whatsoever to do with their deaths, satan killed them, blaming God for satans work is the greatest blasphemy there is, in fact, it is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, which is an unpardonable sin, Jesus said it was in Matthew chapter 12.

God is not a murderer, of course he is aware of everything that will happen, but it is NOT his will for his servants (whom he loves) to be violently and viciously murdered......

 

[Beoga]

BUT God himself, did NOT murder those missionaries, God had Nothing whatsoever to do with their deaths, satan killed them, blaming God for satans work is the greatest blasphemy there is, in fact, it is blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, which is an unpardonable sin, Jesus said it was in Matthew chapter 12.

God is not a murderer, of course he is aware of everything that will happen, but it is NOT his will for his servants (whom he loves) to be violently and viciously murdered......

Any Scriptural proof to back up the idea that it is Satan that takes the life away from someone and not God?
I would say that attributing the work of God to Satan is another great blasphemy.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Is God sovereign? That is, must everything that happens be something He allows?
Is God omniscient? Does He know everything?

If the answer to both of those questions is "yes" than God allowed this to happen and everything that God allows will be to His ultimate glory. Now, if God both knows and allows all thing that happen, can one assume that God proactively causes such things that will bring Him the greatest glory to happen? A Calvinist will say that yes, He does. That is a large pill for some to swallow, and I took that pill sideways, but I am all the better for it. Because I know that God has prepared the events in my life, and because I trust Him, I can take my next step confidantly. I don't know what tomorrow brings, but I do know that God is shaping me for it today.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

 

[AndOne]

God had Nothing whatsoever to do with their deaths....

Sounds pretty arminean to me...

 

[JJB]

Fatty,

You are missing out on a wondeful sermon. Don't shut down because of one difficulty. Persevere through it so you can hear the wonderful message to Go and Make Disciples of All Nations.

I would encourage you to listen to it particularly since you have a heart for the lost. There will be other parts of the sermon you can glean from. I've listened to that sermon more than once. It will encourage you as you seek the Lord to do his will.

Blessings to you,
JJB

 

[Fatty]

Any Scriptural proof to back up the idea that it is Satan that takes the life away from someone and not God?
I would say that attributing the work of God to Satan is another great blasphemy.

John 10:10, proof enough, especially since God himself said it!

God never murders anyone, never has, never will.

God has turned the wicked over to satan for the destruction of their flesh, at the hand of satan many times, but God himself has never once killed, or murdered anyone at anytime, and he never will.

I have never once attributed the work of God to satan, that is as ludicrous, and as false an accusation as anyone could ever make.

 

[Fatty]

Sounds pretty arminean to me...

What if it is?

I suppose you're one of those who falsely condemn others because they will not accept your beliefs as the one, and only absolutely Biblically correct doctrine to follow after?

I was once a prisoner of that bondage myself, praise God, I have been completely delivered out of that mess.

The word of God is eternal, established forever, in Heaven, and it never will change, Gods truth is everlasting, mans opinion is inadequate, and profitless.

 

[Fatty]

Is God sovereign? That is, must everything that happens be something He allows?
Is God omniscient? Does He know everything?

If the answer to both of those questions is "yes" than God allowed this to happen and everything that God allows will be to His ultimate glory. Now, if God both knows and allows all thing that happen, can one assume that God proactively causes such things that will bring Him the greatest glory to happen? A Calvinist will say that yes, He does. That is a large pill for some to swallow, and I took that pill sideways, but I am all the better for it. Because I know that God has prepared the events in my life, and because I trust Him, I can take my next step confidantly. I don't know what tomorrow brings, but I do know that God is shaping me for it today.

I am still firmly convinced by the declarations of God in his word, that he is not a murderer, satan is, in fact God does not kill, satan does, and I will not be moved from that position of confident confidence in Gods love for all mankind.

God hates the act of sin, he does not hate the sinner, hatred kills men, God is LOVE, not hate.....

 

[Fatty]

Fatty,

You are missing out on a wondeful sermon. Don't shut down because of one difficulty. Persevere through it so you can hear the wonderful message to Go and Make Disciples of All Nations.

I would encourage you to listen to it particularly since you have a heart for the lost. There will be other parts of the sermon you can glean from. I've listened to that sermon more than once. It will encourage you as you seek the Lord to do his will.

Blessings to you,
JJB

I appreciate you reply. Your replies have always been encouraging to me, and I do appreciate each one.

Let me just say this, and please don't take any offense, I cannot sit and continue to listen to any persons message when that message begins with a blatant condemnation of God.

I was at one time in my life a very vicious and violent hater of God.

I strived every day of my life before I became a born again Christian to do anything and everything I could possibly do to hurt other Christians, and to dishonor and discredit God.

I was convinced that God hated me, and because of that I was convinced that I must hate God with a deep and vicious hatred, and so I did, for the first 38 years of my life, then my heart was convinced, through the simple teaching of a simple, uneducated, Adult Sunday School teacher of the love of Christ Jesus for me.

I don't want to go into a lengthy post of explanations, suffice to say, that on that day my heart was so completely and absolutely convinced of the perfect, indiscriminate, unprejudiced Love of God for all mankind, that now I am not able to conceive in my heart how God could ever hate anyone, for any reason, and that God could, and would never kill anyone for any reason.

I have heard many other messages from the heart of God preached by men, and women, using the exact same event as used in the message in question, who did not attribute that act of hateful, vicious, violent, murder to God, which convinced my heart very well of the need for missionary work in the places where it is so sorely needed.

The same messages spoke of the events that occurred years later when the same men who murdered the missionaries were saved, BUT never, not even once, in the preacing of those who preached those messages, did even one of those men, or women of God ever place the responsibility for the murders of those missionaries on the hands of God.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Out of curiosity, do you consider every instance of the willfull killing of a human as murder? That is what I'm hearing here, and if so, we do have a different outlook on such things.

 

[Fatty]

Out of curiosity, do you consider every instance of the willfull killing of a human as murder? That is what I'm hearing here, and if so, we do have a different outlook on such things.

No I do not consider each loss of the life of a human being as an act of murder, and even then God never MURDERS, that act can always at all times be rightly ttributed to satan the event in question was murder, there is absolutely no question about that.

God is NOT a murderer.

God did not cause the death of those missionaries, he never approved of their murders, and he certainly did not have a part in those deaths.

Yes, you are absolutely correct, if you place the responsibility for the murders of those missionaries on God, then we are indeed in total disagreement, I will not condemn God as a murderer, I love him far too much to do that.

 

[Beoga]

John 10:10, proof enough, especially since God himself said it!

God never murders anyone, never has, never will.

God has turned the wicked over to satan for the destruction of their flesh, at the hand of satan many times, but God himself has never once killed, or murdered anyone at anytime, and he never will.

I have never once attributed the work of God to satan, that is as ludicrous, and as false an accusation as anyone could ever make.

Please explain how verse 10 is talking about physical life.

 

[Jon_]

No I do not consider each loss of the life of a human being as an act of murder, and even then God never MURDERS, that act can always at all times be rightly ttributed to satan the event in question was murder, there is absolutely no question about that.

God is NOT a murderer.

God did not cause the death of those missionaries, he never approved of their murders, and he certainly did not have a part in those deaths.

Yes, you are absolutely correct, if you place the responsibility for the murders of those missionaries on God, then we are indeed in total disagreement, I will not condemn God as a murderer, I love him far too much to do that.

Well, God certainly doesn't murder, as murder is morally wrong. But he certainly kills:

(1 Ch. 10:13, 14 AV) So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; 14) And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.
​

Here, the author clearly ascribes the death of Saul (remember, he committed suicide) to the hand of the Lord ("therefore he slew him").

Can't argue with Scripture.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[oworm]

in fact God does not kill, satan does,

Who killed Ananias and his wife in Acts 5:1-11?

 

[edie19]

Either God controls all things, including the power of life and death, or He doesn't. But if we say He doesn't, that these things are outside of His providence, then we're diminishing Him.

I didn't listen to the mp3 that prompted this discussion. But consider the case of Nate Saint, Jim Elliot and the other missionaries killed in Ecuador in 1956. Family members of the murdered men went back to the village, established a church and many in the same tribe were converted.

History is full of Christian martyrs. God uses each and everyone of them to advance His church and to ultimately bring glory to Himself.

 

[StAnselm]

This thread has been closed for staff review.