Are you a Christian? (10 Questions + 1)

[Jon_]

(Re: Ps. 37:23, 24) This verse is not at all speaking of a regenerate person falling into professing damnable heresies. . . .

Would you consider denying Christ a blasphemy? The Scriptures tell us that the apostle Peter did such a thing:

(Mt. 26:74 AV) Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew.

​

Peter cursed and swore (took an oath) that he didn't know Jesus Christ. According to your criteria for regeneration, this would be an obvious indication that Peter was unregenerate at this point. That means that during Peter's entire discipleship with Christ, he was unregenerate. When he said,

(John 6:68, 69 AV) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

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he was nothing more than a lying, unregenerate God-hater who was had not yet truly accepted Christ.

But this clearly contradicts the Scriptures:

(Luke 22:31, 32, 43 AV) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. 34) And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

​

Our Lord foresaw Peter's outright denial of faith in him, but he knew that he was among his sheep and would not be utterly cast down (Ps. 37:23, 24). Note that our Lord says, "that they faith fail not" (v. 32). Jesus is acknowledging that Peter has fail, but that his faith will waiver and that he will stumble. Nevertheless, Jesus reassures him that he has prayed for him that his faith will not utterly fail. He taught that the denial of the gospel or being deceived by a false gospel was sinful, it was not necessarily an indication of the unregenerate status of one's soul.

Jesus knew Peter had faith and that that faith would be denied. But he also knew that his denial was disingenuine, for Peter was truly among his sheep.

(Re: Ezek. 33:11) I agree with that Scripture, but how does that imply that a REGENERATE person can confess a false gospel? It doesn’t. . . .

The application is quite clear: professing faith in a false gospel is simply sin. It is a sin of lying, a sin of being led astray, a sin of disobedience, etc. What it shows is that those who are truly regenerate might stumble in their faith, but the Lord has no pleasure that one of his sheep should apostasize. You are right in noting that those who are regenerate are no longer viewed as wicked by God, and that is precisely the point. Though we may sin in various ways, as grave as it may be, the Lord knows his sheep and they are his.

(Re: 2 Pt. 3:9) Again, I’m not sure how this implies that a regenerate person can profess a false gospel. . . .

This verse is another example that failing in faith or falling from grace are not necessary indicators of the lack of regeneration in a person. Let us know look at another example of the apostle Peter's shortcomings.

(Gal. 2:11, 12, 14, 16, 21 AV) But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12) For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 14) But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

​

I have selected some highlight verses from Paul's account of his public rebuke of Peter. Take note of the texts, Paul accuses Peter of not walking "uprightly according to the truth of the gospel" (v. 14). According to your criteria for regeneration, this is evidence that Peter at this time was unregenerate, as was Barnabas and many others.

These were apostles who were indewlt by the Holy Spirit! And you imply that they were unregenerate souls by way of your advocation! What shall we say to these things but that you are greivously in error.

. . .

All of God’s elect, before regeneration, believe in an idol-god who cannot save, but all of God’s elect, after regeneration, believe in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. I encourage you to keep this concept in mind when reading Scripture.

I encourage you to abandon this false pretense that the regenerate elect can never falter in faith temporarily or can never be deceived by a false gospel. Peter is a perfect of example of how these things can and do happen to God's sheep. For you to level the charge that making a profession of a false claim of the Bible is evidence of the lack of the Holy Spirit is for you to make a claim in direct opposition to the Holy Scripture, for Peter was truly an apostle with the Holy Ghost when he was so deceived in the account told by Paul.

Possible rewording of #6. Do you believe that God does not make faith in Jesus Christ a prerequisite to being regenerated?

Prerequisite and requirement are not the same thing. The problem with your original wording is that it did not draw a correlation between requisite faith and regeneration. You simply asked if God requires us to have faith before regeneration. He absolutely does—of all men. The question was not if this requisite faith is conditional unto regeneration. I would encourage you to be more precise in your language (which I always try to do and have been accused of creating grey area for doing so).

This rewording of your question properly represents the subject and I can now heartily answer "Yes" to it.

In response to your second paragraph, belief in a false gospel is damnable. If a person believes a false gospel they are unregenerate.

See the above argument regarding Peter's deception into the practicing of the law even while indwelt by the Holy Spirit. You could not be more wrong.

On the contrary, I DO understand the full implications of the doctrines of grace. . . .

These implications have been discussed above.

Hold on. That is entirely not true. I NEVER said, nor do I believe (as you believe), that, “The whole of Scripture is the Gospel”. That is not true.

. . .

(John 5:39 AV) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

(John 5:46, 47 AV) For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47) But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

(John 8:39 AV) They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

(Rom. 4:12, 13 AV) And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

(Rom. 4:23, 24 AV) Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24) But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
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The whole Bible is written about Christ, which is why it is also referred to as the Word of God (cf. John 1:1 with John 5:39).

You are showing a fundamental lack of understanding when you reject that the whole Bible is part of the Gospel. I attribute this to an unnatural balance between your reading of the New Testament and the Old Testament. No doubt you have not much studied the unity between the two to understand the nature of the covenant that God made with Abraham. No doubt you have not read into typology and how Moses was a type of Christ to come and how Moses's entire ministry was a parallel to Christ's ministry on earth.

No doubt you fail to see the unity of the prophets and the teaching of the New Testament. The New Testament was written that the Old Testament might be fulfilled and fully revealed! The two are interconnected in a glorious unity that only our Lord could conceive! The Gospel is not meant to be understood in the vacuum of the New Testament, but in unity with the Old as well.

How else do we take Psalm 37, vv. 23, 24, to refer to the elect? Why else would Paul write,

(Rom. 9:15 AV) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
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Is this not a part of the Gospel? Is Paul not applying here God's sovereign choice in election in the Old Testament to election in the New Testament?

I exhort you to study the revelation of God in the Old Testament Scriptures that you might come to a fuller understanding of the unified nature of it with the New Testament. Everywhere you turn, Christ is there. The whole of the books are written to speak of the coming Messiah, who is our Lord Jesus Christ. Their application to our Christian faith is just as binding and just as relevant as every letter of the New Testament, for our Lord says,

(Mt. 5:17-19 AV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

​

Since you believe that no man can judge what is in the hearts of men, then why and how can you judge me? Do I not have, "faith in Christ"?

I do not know. What I do know is that your fruit stinks and appears rotten to the core. If you were a member of my church, I would surely confront you with other brothers and accuse you of being facitous and demand that you stop teaching your false doctrine. But I do not believe, nor do I have any basis to believe, that simply because you are deceived and wrong in your doctrinal teaching that you are unregenerate. You are simply mistaken.

And what judgment have I rendered against you that was not hypothetical or objective in scope? I have but outlined the objective truth of the Word and said, "If this is what you believe, you are wrong." My arguments are based on your arguments, not upon what I presume to be in your heart. I judge what you say, not who you are. This is the right and proper judgment according to the Scriptures.

On that, you are certainly in my prayers. I pray that the Holy Spirit would illuminate you of the errors in what you are presenting and that he would deliver you from your judgmentalism and false doctrine.

And please stay away from Outside the Camp. For the security of your soul.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Foundthelight]

I just thought that I should add something from the Canons of Dort.

Fifth Head of Doctrine - The Perseverance of the Saints
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Article 1 - The Regenerate Not Free from Indwelling Sin
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Those whom God according to His purpose calls into the fellowship of His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and regenerates by His Holy Spirit, He certainly sets free from the dominion and slavery of sin, but not entirely in this life from the flesh and from the body of sin.

Article 2 - Daily Sins of Weakness
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Therefore daily sins of weakness spring up and defects cling to even the best works of the saints. These are for them a constant reason to humble themselves before God, to flee to the crucified Christ, to put the flesh to death more and more through the Spirit of prayer and by holy exercises of godliness, and to long for the goal of perfection until at last, delivered from this body of death, they reign with the Lamb of God in heaven.

Article 3 - God Preserves His Own
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Because of these remains of indwelling sin and also because of the temptations of the world and of Satan, those who have been converted could not persevere in that grace if left to their own strength. But God is faithful, who mercifully confirms them in the grace once conferred upon them and powerfully preserves them in that grace to the end.

Article 4 - Saints May Fall into Serious Sins
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The power of God whereby He confirms and preserves true believers in grace is so great that it cannot be conquered by the flesh, yet the converted are not always so led and moved by God that they cannot in certain particular actions turn aside through their own fault from the guidance of grace and be seduced by and yield to the lusts of the flesh. They must therefore constantly watch and pray that they may not be led into temptation. When they do not watch and pray, they not only can be drawn away by the flesh, the world, and Satan into serious and atrocious sins, but with the righteous permission of God are sometimes actually drawn away. The lamentable fall of David, Peter, and other saints, described in Holy Scripture, demonstrates this.

Article 5 - The Effects of Such Serious Sins
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By such gross sins, however, they greatly offend God, incur deadly guilt, grieve the Holy Spirit, suspend the exercise of faith, very grievously wound their consciences, and sometimes for a while lose the sense of God’s favour - until they return to the right way through sincere repentance and God’s fatherly face again shines upon them.

Article 6 - God Will Not Permit His Elect to Be Lost
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But God, who is rich in mercy, according to the unchangeable purpose of His election, does not completely withdraw His Holy Spirit from His own even in their deplorable fall. Neither does He permit them to sink so deep that they fall away from the grace of adoption and the state of justification, or commit the sin unto death or the sin against the Holy Spirit and, totally deserted by Him, plunge themselves into eternal ruin.

Article 7 - God Will Again Renew His Elect to Repentance
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For in the first place, in their fall, He preserves in them His imperishable seed of regeneration, so that it does not perish and is not cast out. Further, through His Word and Spirit He effectually renews them to repentance. As a result they grieve from the heart with a godly sorrow for the sins they have committed; they seek and obtain through faith with a contrite heart forgiveness in the blood of the Mediator; they again experience the favour of a reconciled God and adore His mercies and faithfulness. And from now on they more diligently work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

 

[Jon_]

Jonas, my brother, please do not misconstrue my intentions. I no more desire to prove you wrong than I desire myself to be proven wrong. My desire is that the will of God be fulfilled and his scriptural truth be told. If I were making the same arguments as you, I would not like being proven wrong anymore than you. But know that none of this comes from malice or bitterness toward you, but only love. For I love the truth of Christ and love you, and hope and pray that you would come to love the same truth.

I understand and applaud your justified hatred of the gospel of works. Such a false gospel is truly a deception of Satan and I praise God that he has shown you the falsity of it. I also thank and praise God that many of those who are deceived by the "free-will" overtures of such as Arminian theology, do not fully understand the implications of what they profess. With their hearts they believe they are saved by grace alone through faith alone, but with their mouths they say something different. They are truly guilty of a false profession, but I would hestitate to say that such is a direct result of a false confession.

I know many godly men and women that bear abundant fruit that are convinced God is only rightly vindicated by some kind of free will doctrine. They do not understand how God can be the ultimate cause of everything, even of sin, and yet be holy and blameless. They further suppose that sin must be solely the decision of man, else he could not be held responsible for it. True, they are deceived by worldly standards of responsibility, but their faith in Christ as Savior is genuine.

My hope and prayer is for the illumination of the Holy Spirit in your studies. I exhort you, as a brother, to continue examining the Scriptures. My encouragement goes out to you to especially study the Old Testament and learn of our covenant Lord and his dealings with Israel, for such point forward to the New Testament for fulfillment and complete revelation.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[seekingpurity047]

Jonas, I only have one simple question for you. In one sentence, define for me with substantiating and contextual biblical passage(s) that deal with what you call "the true gospel of Jesus Christ".

Thank you,

Randy

 

[jonas3]

Would you consider denying Christ a blasphemy? The Scriptures tell us that the apostle Peter did such a thing:

(Mt. 26:74 AV) Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew.

Peter cursed and swore (took an oath) that he didn't know Jesus Christ. According to your criteria for regeneration, this would be an obvious indication that Peter was unregenerate at this point. That means that during Peter's entire discipleship with Christ, he was unregenerate. When he said,

(John 6:68, 69 AV) Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69) And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

he was nothing more than a lying, unregenerate God-hater who was had not yet truly accepted Christ.

But this clearly contradicts the Scriptures:
(Luke 22:31, 32, 43 AV) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32) But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. 34) And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Our Lord foresaw Peter's outright denial of faith in him, but he knew that he was among his sheep and would not be utterly cast down (Ps. 37:23, 24). Note that our Lord says, "that they faith fail not" (v. 32). Jesus is acknowledging that Peter has fail, but that his faith will waiver and that he will stumble. Nevertheless, Jesus reassures him that he has prayed for him that his faith will not utterly fail. He taught that the denial of the gospel or being deceived by a false gospel was sinful, it was not necessarily an indication of the unregenerate status of one's soul.

Jesus knew Peter had faith and that that faith would be denied. But he also knew that his denial was disingenuine, for Peter was truly among his sheep.

Jon, you are horribly wrong here. Peter did not confess a false gospel; and therefore, Peter was not unregenerate when he denied that he KNEW Jesus. The passage of Peter’s denial of Christ is not a denial of the gospel; it was a denial that he knew Jesus. This is a big difference, and a sin that a true Christian might very well fall into. A Christian (i.e. a regenerate person) may, through his weaknesses and the fear of man or physical death, deny that he is a Christian, or in Peter’s case, deny that he knew Jesus. Indeed, Peter did sin, but his sin was not the sin of professing a false gospel. A Christian will NEVER commit the sin of professing a false gospel, as it is written, "4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." - Jn 10:4-5. A Christian is like to fall into many sins, and yet not be utterly cast down (i.e. damned at last). To say that Peter denied the gospel by professing a false gospel is contrary to the Spirit of Truth that was in him.

For reference, here is the account of Peter’s denial. Read the contents thereof closely. Peter denies that he knows Jesus. Peter does not confess a false gospel.

"69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee. 70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest. 71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth. 72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man. 73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee. 74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew. 75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly." - Mat 25:69-75

The application is quite clear: professing faith in a false gospel is simply sin. It is a sin of lying, a sin of being led astray, a sin of disobedience, etc.

Professing a false gospel is not just a sin; it is a damnable heresy (2Pet 2:1). A Christian does not profess DAMNABLE (i.e. damnable) heresies. A Christian is not damned.

This verse is another example that failing in faith or falling from grace are not necessary indicators of the lack of regeneration in a person. Let us know look at another example of the apostle Peter's shortcomings.

(Gal. 2:11, 12, 14, 16, 21 AV) But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12) For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 14) But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

I have selected some highlight verses from Paul's account of his public rebuke of Peter. Take note of the texts, Paul accuses Peter of not walking "uprightly according to the truth of the gospel" (v. 14). According to your criteria for regeneration, this is evidence that Peter at this time was unregenerate, as was Barnabas and many others.

These were apostles who were indewlt by the Holy Spirit! And you imply that they were unregenerate souls by way of your advocation! What shall we say to these things but that you are greivously in error.

Peter sinned, as do all Christians, but he did NOT confess a false gospel. Are you saying that Gal 2:11-17 proves that Peter believed that his salvation was conditioned on himself? So are you saying that you DO believe that Peter professed a false gospel? You are the one who is trying to prove from this passage that Peter confessed a false gospel; therefore, YOU are the one that must believe that Peter thought that his salvation was conditioned on his law keeping as this is the context of the passage (Gal 2:16). I believe that Gal 2:11-17 shows Peter sinning, but not confessing a false gospel (i.e. that his salvation was conditioned on his ability to keep the law); and therefore, I believe that Peter was regenerate the whole time. Of course, in your view, Peter was regenerate regardless if he professed a false gospel or not since that doesn’t really matter. If you wish, please read this short article entitled, “What About the Galatians?”, which touches on this issue.

Type: "www" DOT "outsidethecamp" DOT "org/galatians.htm"

I encourage you to abandon this false pretense that the regenerate elect can never falter in faith temporarily or can never be deceived by a false gospel. Peter is a perfect of example of how these things can and do happen to God's sheep. For you to level the charge that making a profession of a false claim of the Bible is evidence of the lack of the Holy Spirit is for you to make a claim in direct opposition to the Holy Scripture, for Peter was truly an apostle with the Holy Ghost when he was so deceived in the account told by Paul.

When did I ever say that Peter was not truly an apostle with the Holy Ghost in Galatians? I never brought it up. You are making this claim against me based on your OWN interpretation of Gal 2:11-17, in which YOU say that it shows how Peter professed a false gospel. On the contrary, that it something I would never say.

Prerequisite and requirement are not the same thing. The problem with your original wording is that it did not draw a correlation between requisite faith and regeneration. You simply asked if God requires us to have faith before regeneration. He absolutely does—of all men. The question was not if this requisite faith is conditional unto regeneration. I would encourage you to be more precise in your language (which I always try to do and have been accused of creating grey area for doing so).

This rewording of your question properly represents the subject and I can now heartily answer "Yes" to it.

I acknowledge that the question in the original wording, although I didn’t see a problem with it at first, could be taken in the wrong manner; and therefore, to be more precise, I will use the rewording above to be the “official” version of question #6. The original post has been changed to reflect the modification to question #6 in order to be more precise.

You are showing a fundamental lack of understanding when you reject that the whole Bible is part of the Gospel.

And you show your total ignorance of what the gospel actually is by suggesting that every single verse in the Bible (i.e. the whole of Scripture) IS the gospel. Also, I NEVER SAID that the gospel is not declared throughout the entire Bible. In fact, I said the exact opposite in my above post, and I quote:

The gospel is not the, “whole of Scripture”. I am not saying that the gospel is not throughout the whole of Scripture, for it is…”

The gospel is God’s promise (i.e. the promise declared throughout in the Old Testament), to save His people (i.e. coming of Messiah) conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Christ alone (Isa 53, etc). The New Testament is the fulfillment of the gospel (i.e. the good news of God) declared in the Old Testament. I believe that God’s people in the Old Testament were saved in the exact same manner as they are in the New Testament, which is by the atoning blood and imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. In fact, those who say otherwise (i.e. that God’s people were saved by works in the Old Testament) are unregenerate.


-jonas

 

[jonas3]

Jonas, my brother, please do not misconstrue my intentions. I no more desire to prove you wrong than I desire myself to be proven wrong. My desire is that the will of God be fulfilled and his scriptural truth be told. If I were making the same arguments as you, I would not like being proven wrong anymore than you. But know that none of this comes from malice or bitterness toward you, but only love. For I love the truth of Christ and love you, and hope and pray that you would come to love the same truth.

Jon, you are not my brother in Christ, for me to say that we are brothers and can have fellowship one with another is to make the claim that we believe the same gospel. Unfortunately, this is not the case, because you believe in a totally different gospel and a totally different “christ”. You believe that two gospels are acceptable in the eyes of the Lord. You believe that one can believe that “christ" died for all men without exception, and another can believe that Christ died for His people alone, and both are equal in the eyes of God. Furthermore, you believe that regenerate Christians can and do profess a false gospel, which is accursed.

I know many godly men and women that bear abundant fruit that are convinced God is only rightly vindicated by some kind of free will doctrine.

You judge according to appearance, and sincerity; therefore, you do not judge righteous judgment (Jn 7:24), and you judge wickedly. How do you know that they are, “godly men and women”? What do you base that on?


-jonas

 

[Fatty]

I believe that God has purposely preordained that anyone, and everyone, anywhere, and everywhere be guaranteed an equal opportunity to hear the Uncompromised Full Gospel Message Of The Cross Of Jesus Christ at some point and time in his, or her life.

I am also very aware that not everyone will readily accept the gift of salvation offered to them, choosing rather to reject the offer of salvation, and turn instead to the judgment of eternal damnation.

I do not believe God has purposely set some aside to be condemned to eternal punishment with absolutely no hope whatsoever of having a choice to accept his gift of salvation at anytime in their life time.

I have spent the past few days and nights wondering about the importance of all this.

I have asked myself, is it so important to be right?

Doctrinally, I believe I am right, BUT I am also willing to admit, that I could be wrong, if I am, so be it.

I do know this much for sure, I KNOW that I am saved, and I know in my heart that I am going to spend eternity in heaven, to me, that is a lot more important than doctrinal issues.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

The churches helping survivors from the hurricanes don't seem to be arguing one way or another right now, do they? Difficult times have a way of grounding the church in what truly matters.

Tell me, do you believe that some remote tribe in the jungles of Africa that could be first discovered tomorrow has had an opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ? Natural revelation has the power only to condemn. That is why we are called to go to every tribe, tongue and nation to proclaim the gospel.

 

[Jon_]

Jonas,

I have offered you patient and compassionate reproof, but you have refused it, even turning my own words back on me as "evidence" that I am unregenerate. For this, I charge you with grievous sin and false doctrine. In the name of Jesus Christ, before these witnesses, repent from your false teaching that you may be converted from your errant, deceived ways.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[seekingpurity047]

Jonas,

I have offered you patient and compassionate reproof, but you have refused it, even turning my own words back on me as "evidence" that I am unregenerate. For this, I charge you with grievous sin and false doctrine. In the name of Jesus Christ, before these witnesses, repent from your false teaching that you may be converted from your errant, deceived ways.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Amen!

 

[Foundthelight]

Jonas,

I have offered you patient and compassionate reproof, but you have refused it, even turning my own words back on me as "evidence" that I am unregenerate. For this, I charge you with grievous sin and false doctrine. In the name of Jesus Christ, before these witnesses, repent from your false teaching that you may be converted from your errant, deceived ways.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Another Amen

 

[Fatty]

The churches helping survivors from the hurricanes don't seem to be arguing one way or another right now, do they? Difficult times have a way of grounding the church in what truly matters.

That is a true fact! I only wish that we all, as the body of Christ would consider every moment, of every day as difficult times, and cease arguing over unimportant doctrinal issues altogether, and focus all of our Spiritual, and physical energy on what truly matters most of all: The Lost, and the hurting.

Tell me, do you believe that some remote tribe in the jungles of Africa that could be first discovered tomorrow has had an opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ? Natural revelation has the power only to condemn. That is why we are called to go to every tribe, tongue and nation to proclaim the gospel.

This is what I believe. If someone, male, or female, is called, by God, to go forth as a missionary, to go to the nations of the earth, declaring, without apology, and without compromise, the uncompromised, life changing, full Gospel message of the cross Of Jesus Christ, God, by the Holy Ghost, will empower, and equip that person to fulfill that calling.

And having been fully equipped, and empowered by the Holy Ghost to declare that message of truth, and Love, and Hope, and assurance of an opportunity to receive the gift of Gods saving grace through Jesus Christ, by faith, even the most hetahen, of the heathen can be saved and have the absolute assurance that they can and will spend eternity in heaven.

God is no respector of persons, with men it is impossible, but with God all things are possible, and if believers have faith (Mark 9:23) all things are possible to them that believe!

Our problem is we have been taught, through predestination (Election) that God Desires that only certain ones be saved, and all others be condemnned, but it is Gods desire that ALL be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, he knows that not everyone who hears the message will accept the gift being offered to them, and that these will eventuallu end up in hell for all eternity, BUT God also knows that many will accept the gift of salvation, and he also knows that many will NOT go forth as his witnesses to tell the lost about Jesus, and because of this rebellion, many, who would have accepted the offer of the gift of salvation, will never hear that message, and will die and go to hell forever.

And for that rebellion, many will be held accountable when standing before the great white judgment seat of Christ Jesus......

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

What is the difference from one person who accepts what they year and another who does not? Was one more receptive than the other? Was the one smarter? Did one hear the gospel preached more forcefully than the other? I say that both came in blind and one had their eyes opened by God and the other did not.

 

[Fatty]

What is the difference from one person who accepts what they hear and another who does not? Was one more receptive than the other? Was the one smarter? Did one hear the gospel preached more forcefully than the other? I say that both came in blind and one had their eyes opened by God and the other did not.

First of all God has already pre-determine that anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere is to be given an equal opportunity to hear the Gospel message.

WE as Christian servants of God, are to be at all times fully attentive to the leadership of the Holy Ghost, through prayer, and hearing the voice of the Holy Ghost guiding us.

He will tell us where to go, who to witness to, and what to say to that individual.

Our only obligation is to obey God, and go, and preach, we are not obligated to have the knowledge of why some accept and others reject the truth, we are not obligated to gauge whether we will go and preach acording to who will reject the offer of the gift of salvation, and who will accept that gift.

Determinig if we will obey Gods commandment to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature is akin to analyzing the outcome before ever doing, and deciding, by that, NOT to go, because our flesh will always tell us NOT to obey God.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

I agree that we need to obey the word of God. The part that I disagree with is this:

First of all God has already pre-determine that anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere is to be given an equal opportunity to hear the Gospel message.

This is something that has not happened in the past and is not happening in the present. There are people dying without ever hearing the name of Christ. That is why we go!

 

[Fatty]

I agree that we need to obey the word of God. The part that I disagree with is this:

First of all God has already pre-determine that anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere is to be given an equal opportunity to hear the Gospel message.

I cannot see how you can disagree with the truth as it is stated in the word of God, by God himself no less! (Matthew 28:19-20 Mark 16:15-20)

This is something that has not happened in the past, and is not happening in the present. There are people dying without ever hearing the name of Christ. That is why we go!

How can you say it has not happened in the past?

Of course it has!

It Has, It Is, and It certainly Will continue to happen!

Because, in spite of all the negative incorrect teaching contradictory to the truth of Gods word, there have been, there are, and there will always be those who have been determined, who are determined, and will always be determined to be obedient to the truth of the word of God, who have gone, who are going, and who will go out into their world, wherever that might be, to proclaim, without compromise, and without apology, the uncompromised, life changing, full Gospel message of the cross of Jesus Christ, to anyone and everyone, anywhere, and everywhere!

We go because it is Gods will we go, and it is his commandment, if we love him, we obey him, if we do not obey him, we do not love him, something else God said (John 14)

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Romans 10
14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Romans+10#f3 And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

This may come down to what truths need to be believed to be saved. Do you need to know about the penalty placed upon Christ? Do you need to know that he rose again? Are these things that one can determine on their own without being told? I say no.

 

[Fatty]

Romans 10
14 But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

This may come down to what truths need to be believed to be saved. Do you need to know about the penalty placed upon Christ? Do you need to know that he rose again? Are these things that one can determine on their own without being told? I say no.

Let's just cut straight to the chase, as they say here in Arkansas.

So what you are saying is; we, as the servants of Jesus Christ, are NOT required by the word of God to go and preach the Gospel to every person everywhere, is that correct?

That is wrong, we are obligated by the commandment of God to witness to the lost.

You're right, no person can believe on their own, BUT they can believe if they are witnessed to!

Faith does come by hearing, and hearing by the word of GOD, BUT the word of God NOW comes through the mouths of obedient servants of God who choose to obey his commandment to go forth and preach, at anytime, without compromise and without apology, the uncompromised, life changing full Gospel message of the cross of Jesus Christ to anyone, and everyone, anywhere, and everywhere.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

So what you are saying is; we, as the servants of Jesus Christ, are NOT required by the word of God to go and preach the Gospel to every person everywhere, is that correct?

That is wrong, we are obligated by the commandment of God to witness to the lost.

You're right, no person can believe on their own, BUT they can believe if they are witnessed to!

No, what I am saying is that there are unreached people that we need to witness to. There are people who have died without ever hearing. I believe you denied that fact earlier. Not everyone has heard the gospel.

 

[Fatty]

No, what I am saying is that there are unreached people that we need to witness to. There are people who have died without ever hearing. I believe you denied that fact earlier. Not everyone has heard the gospel.

I honestly don't like the word Unreachable, it borders too closely on unbelief.

I really believe that everyone, everywhere is reachable, the reason they aren't all being reached is people God are calling to go and preach are not willing to obey that call, for some reason or another.

You are right, there are people who have died without ever having the Gospel, and that is tragic, actually much more tragic than any of histories worst tragedies!

These deaths were not just deaths, they are deaths multiplied, and multiplied throughout all of Eternity, by the never ending horrific pains of hells eternal torments.

I don't know for certain if i did deny the fact earlier or not, maybe I did, I apologize though, I do know this, everyone can be reached, if every Christian who is called to go, will go, and I believe every Christian, is called, to some type of reaching ministry, if not in the Pulpit of the Preacher, in the pulpit of the witness....