Are We Too Smart for Our Own Good?

[timothyu]

Even highly-credentialed biblical scholars can disagree completely on Scriptural interpretations.

Of course, self serving is the nature of man, even in religion..

 

[~Zao~]

The immense depth is that we are backwards to God's will and the Kingdom. But a child already knows that and easily sees the hypocrisies until it is 'trained' out of them.

I wish I could contribute something more meaningful to the discussion, but alas, I simply cannot get these deep metaphysical concepts to go into my brain. I try to interact with these ideas, but quickly find myself lost in the morass of the high minded. I could never have succeeded in seminary.

Hopefully the seminaries are no longer sending out vicious out of control misogynists,.. the shame of the religion imo.

 

[timothyu]

Hopefully the seminaries are no longer sending out vicious out of control misogynist,.. the shame of the religion imo.

Misogynists, paedophiles, politically minded, they are all simply humans thinking that they are sheltered within a faith that promotes forgiveness while pursuing their own agenda. Using God to justify their ways rather than changing to suit His. Christianity is a product of man based on an ideal no longer practised, following instead the human concept of serving self, our downfall from the Garden.

 

[~Zao~]

Misogynists, paedophiles, politically minded, they are all simply humans thinking that they are sheltered within a faith that promotes forgiveness while pursuing their own agenda. Christianity is a product of man based on an ideal no longer practised, following instead the human concept of serving self, our downfall from the Garden.

Speak for yourself.

 

[timothyu]

Speak for yourself.

Another example of the downfall of man.. speaking for oneself instead of for God.

 

[fhansen]

Of course, self serving is the nature of man, even in religion..

Along with inherent ignorance and limitations that we all possess. My position is that the buck must stop somewhere; God would necessarily provide a means to preserve and know the truth, and that only an entity which He established with a historical lineage to the beginning of the faith could logically possess the knowledge necessary to ensure this: the church first made up of the body of disciples who received the gospel. And this preservation despite the weaknesses and limitations of the church's vessels.

 

[Aabbie James]

No one comes to the father but through the son. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. Man's duty towards God and neighbor is to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind...and to love our neighbor as self:

• Galatians 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
• Romans 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

 

[miamited]

It is the first level of obedience. Even the Pharisees got that. If we understand His Heart on a matter, we can better obey the Spirit of the Law WHILE still fulfilling the Letter.

Jesus said,
"For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20 NKJV

Hi sabertooth,

My response isn't about keeping or not keeping the law. My response is merely to address this idea that we may be more 'able' to follow anything that God asks of us if only we had a more complete picture or understanding of 'why' He might ask something of us.

When Jesus was speaking to the scribes and Pharisees, he was speaking to a group who were trying to attain righteousness by keeping the law. Both these words of Jesus and Paul's admonition to us seems to clearly express and deny this idea that some of us might, in the end, be found faithful because of our adherence to the law.

The law was given, as the Scriptures declare, not to make us righteous in God's sight by our keeping it, but rather to make us understand our total inability to keep it. Therefore, each of us in desperate need of a Savior. However, all we need to do, is by faith, believe what the Scriptures teach us, whether or not we fully understand why the Scriptures tell us all that they do.

So, my position, as regards your post, is that wanting a better and more complete understanding of why God does, or says something, does not seem to have been how God understood our faithfulness. God has said what God has said. He has not expounded beyond His word to give us better insight or understanding of the 'whys' and 'wherefores'. He asks us to believe, on faith, that He loves us and that all that He asks of us is for our own good, whether or not we understand it all.

This is where Eve fell. God instructed them not to eat of the fruit, but Eve gained, what she perceived as a 'better understanding' of the fruit. Oh, it's going to make me wiser! I can be more like God! It just looks too good not to eat.

Many won't agree with me, but I find that this quest for knowledge often leads us away from God. Take for example our understanding now of light and how it is explained. It is sent out as a wave of energy and travels at a certain speed. That knowledge has now driven many to question God's claim that He created all things in this realm in 6 days. Prior to that kind of knowledge, as I think the Jewish calendar shows, most of God's people, the Jews, dated the creation to be only a few thousand years old, as God's word proclaims.

The fact that life forms may change some over a long period of time, has now turned people away from the truth of God's word, that He created them male and female at the beginning. It also explains why so many young believers begin to question the foundations of their faith when they go to college. They go from a place where their parents and others who are faithful to God's word have raised them up to know and believe how the Scriptures explain our existence, to finding out how science explains our existence and the two are not, despite what some try to convince us, compatible. Man cannot explain the 'how' that God does things.

Man can't even tell us how a virgin woman came to be pregnant some 2,000 year ago. Man can't even begin to explain how a deep sea split apart and two walls of water stood up like sentinels as a body of people, several thousand strong, merely walked from one shore to another opposite shore. Man can't even give you an inkling of an idea as to how a shadow cast by the sun can go backwards the distance of 10 steps. Yet, we have absolutely no doubt that man can tell us how God did the greatest work that He has done in this realm in which we live. That's hubris on man's part to even think to imagine that he can answer such a difficult issue of God's account of all that He has done, yet can't even begin to explain any of the less difficult things that He has done.

So, while I appreciate your position, I'm not necessarily in agreement that, as a rule, knowing more about the 'how' and 'why', than what God has told us, is good for us.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[miamited]

I wish I could contribute something more meaningful to the discussion, but alas, I simply cannot get these deep metaphysical concepts to go into my brain. I try to interact with these ideas, but quickly find myself lost in the morass of the high minded. I could never have succeeded in seminary.

Speaking strictly for myself, I say yes I have been entirely too smart for my own good. Too "smart" to believe I needed the Lord. Too smart to comprehend how badly I need God's grace, mercy, and guidance. Too well educated to believe in fairy tales. Too knowledgeable about the secular things of this world to believe. What intellect I possess as largely been an obstacle to my faith until recently. Knowing enhanced my natural stubborness and pridefulness and made it very difficult to let go, to submit. Only pain changed my attitude.

To the extent that this applies to others I would say it's true more broadly. I'm sure I'm not the only one with these kinds of experiences.

Hi carp,

That's pretty much my position also. So no, you are not the only one with these kinds of experiences.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

 

[eleos1954]

The immense depth is that we are backwards to God's will and the Kingdom. But a child already knows that and easily sees the hypocrisies until it is 'trained' out of them.

hmmm ... well in thinking back to when my son was a little one (he's now 34) I would say more so it is because at a very young age they are very trusting (innocently so) ... especially of their parent(s) or whoever provides care for them. Depends on the age of the "child" I suppose.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

How do we overcome our obfuscation of a message even a child can understand as we seek to grow in knowledge?

How did the messenger of Yahuweh, Shaul, becoming known as Paul, come to know Yahushua Messiah as His Savior ? (through his intellect/ studies/ education? No.)
What message did he declare his purpose to preach ?

 

[timothyu]

the church first made up of the body of disciples who received the gospel. And this preservation despite the weaknesses and limitations of the church's vessels.

The church is but a vessel, no matter how imperfect, to carry forward scriptures which contain truth. Man and especially our institutions can't be trusted.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Are we saved enough?

Maybe today. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow. Maybe not ever....

Thus, many warnings in Scripture from the Creator Himself.... (to His children) ....

 

[timothyu]

hmmm ... well in thinking back to when my son was a little one (he's now 34) I would say more so it is because at a very young age they are very trusting (innocently so) ... especially of their parent(s) or whoever provides care for them. Depends on the age of the "child" I suppose.

Yes they are trusting until they grow to see our hypocrisies and rebel. My parents were guilty of both at some point, I was guilty, my kids and their kids will be guilty. Human nature. The outcome is what counts after the rebellion. Do they remain true to their ability to see the hypocrisies or does it eventually get taken out of them in the name of conformity to the world of man (not God)

 

[timothyu]

What message did he declare his purpose to preach ?

One that lead people away from the religion he first defended, threat within removed.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

One that lead people away from the religion he first defended, threat within removed.

That's not what Paul says in Scripture , no, sorry. In fact, this (what you seem to propose) could possibly be opposed to the message of the Gospel.

 

[fhansen]

The church is but a vessel, no matter how imperfect, to carry forward scriptures which contain truth. Man and especially our institutions can't be trusted.

So, if man can't be trusted, even if God provided the Spirit to guide His Church, then how can any human reading/interpretation of Scripture be trusted?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, if man can't be trusted, even if God provided the Spirit to guide His Church, then how can any human reading/interpretation of Scripture be trusted?

No human interpretation of Scripture should be used, and Yahuweh says Himself in His Word that He curses those (including believers) who trust in the flesh.

 

[TraceMalin]

Maybe today. Maybe not today. Maybe not tomorrow. Maybe not ever....

Thus, many warnings in Scripture from the Creator Himself.... (to His children) ....

That doesn't sound like good news.

 

[Blade]

To smart? Is God even in the room yet? I was thinking this morning how we are today vs the 12/120 so forth. They came together for Christ. To hear about Him..what He said did. The 12... not like we are today. They were the leaders they took all the risks. They lead the fight.. lead by example. You always knew it was never about them but Christ..and Christ to the Father. Then the sweet sweet Holy Spirit. No different groups what not. It was all for Christ. Didn't take long for MAN to step in though lol.

With all we can learn and know on can still be a babe in Christ. The greatest in the kingdom is not the dumbest (forgive me) of us or the one God feels sorry for. Like the old song..if you want to be great in Gods kingdom be the servant of all...

Thanks for sharing. Side note.. you said "child can understand" I still remember seeing this child.. 5 I think.. yeah so hard to believe but had hands lifted singing crying about Jesus.. it was so beautiful. Jesus IS real!