Are we allowed to partake in Christmas?

[All4Christ]

All I can say about the mass is that you really should pray and study about what it stands for. What it represents, and what transubstantiation really means, you will not find it in the bible.

I am aware of the meaning of transubstantiation and the meaning of mass. I believe we understand Scripture differently on these issues.

Read John 6:22-69

 

[masmpg]

The curious thing is that we were never under the Pope, and Adventist theology seems to be at a loss as how we could be, by Adventist standards, worse than Catholics, while not being under the rule of the chap you misidentify as the "Beast."

The truth will emerge very soon with the evangelical catholics in the white house now. The image of the beast is almost compete. The church is already starting to use the civil powers to legislate their wishes. This should never happen. ALL things Christian should be by free will not legislation. The separation of church and state is a biblical principle, but the ACLU has tried to take it to extreme, and have blown it out of proportion by trying to take away our free will on the other end. There is no law that says our children cannot bring their bible to school, but the ACLU sues schools over this so the schools make rules, which parents believe are laws. Anyway, probably off topic, but I try not to argue, I just share what I observe.

 

[masmpg]

I am aware of the meaning of transubstantiation and the meaning of mass. I believe we understand Scripture differently on these issues.

Read John 6:22-69

I don't want any contention here but do you honestly believe that Jesus was telling His disciples to eat His physical flesh like cannibals? This just is not the case. The reason Jesus said it the way He did was to weed out those who were not serious about doing His work. He was showing that His work is that important.

 

[All4Christ]

I don't want any contention here but do you honestly believe that Jesus was telling His disciples to eat His physical flesh like cannibals? This just is not the case. The reason Jesus said it the way He did was to weed out those who were not serious about doing His work. He was showing that His work is that important.

I don't believe he was saying it in the sense of cannabalism, but I do believe that the Eucharist bread and wine becomes the true body and blood of Christ. (I dare say that Jesus doesn't lie in Scripture, and nowhere did He say "just joking!! I don't mean this literally, even though I just told those who don't believe me literally to leave!").

 

[christopheralan88]

In the early church, Christians celebrated Pascha on different days. We tried to use the same calculations used by the Jewish Passover. Some believed that Jesus died on Passover...others the day after. I think it is related to Sabbath and High Sabbath? The gospels aren't completely clear on this, as some seemed to say one day while others said another. Then, to top that off, calculations of Passover sometimes placed it before the Spring Equinox due to the Julian calendar creep. Because of this, a new calculation was determined. There needed to be a relationship with the Jewish Passover, since Jesus is our Passover, but we wanted it to be after the Spring Equinox like it was when Jesus died and resurrected. After all, the Torah prescribes it to be held "in the month of [the] spring" (בחדש האביב Exodus 23:15). We also wanted to all celebrate it at the same time. Also, as Jesus was resurrected on the "eighth" day (think about the first fruits, plus 1 Corinthians 15), we wanted to always celebrate it then, on the "day of resurrection ". Note that we calculate Pascha based on the Julian, not Gregorian, calendar. While Pascha may be in March on the Gregorian calendar, it is the equivalent of "April" on the Julian calendar.

If this isn't clear, please let me know...I'm tired and may not be as clear right now

ETA: I found the calendar change I was referencing...when a calculation with leap years was created in the 4th century. How Does the Spring Equinox Relate to the Timing of Passover? - About the Jewish Leap Year

Sorry for the delay. I was travelling this weekend.

Interesting...thanks for explaining it more to me. I'll have to look into the history of it. I appreciate your patience.

 

[christopheralan88]

John 4:23 testifies to the Truth that Jesus came as the Redeemer of the Hebrew Nation: to redeem an entire nation as a people group. No longer would earthlings worship in temples made with hands, following one ritual after another. He said quite clearly that the time (for transition) is now.

Through the Apostle Paul, He brought the Truth of God's Grace to everyone, everywhere, one-by-one, through each one's confession of Faith in Jesus Christ as Savior.

These are the central features of the Ministry of Jesus during His time on earth, and His witness to Paul after the Cross.

Click on this link for this wonderful Truth in scripture:

Content On: Worship (Personal)

May God add His Blessing to the reading of His Word.

Well, you didn't quote any Scripture. You just threw a list at me. Let's be specific. Here's what I see:

Psalms 119:142: Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth.
Psalms 119:160: All your words are truth; all your righteous laws are eternal.

So, if Jesus is saying we should worship God is spirit and in truth, and the above verses clearly show that His Law (first 5 books of the Bible) is truth, then walking out the Law is part of worshipping God. Also, the above says that His Law is eternal and we know from Deuteronomy 12:32 that we are not to add to or subtract from the Law and in Malachi 3:6 that God does not change. So, the same Law applies to us today as it did 2000 years ago (the parts that are applicable, of course).

Also, it's interesting when we consider:

Psalm 119:1: Blessed are the undefiled in the WAY, who walk in the LAW OF GOD.
Proverbs 13:14: The LAW of the wise is a fountain of LIFE, to depart from the snares of death.

So, we know from these four verses that the Law (Torah) is the WAY, TRUTH, and LIFE. That should sound familiar because Jesus says in John 14:6, "Jesus answered, "I am the WAY and the TRUTH and the LIFE. No one comes to the Father except through me." So, is Jesus saying that He is the Law incarnate??? Actually yes, because John 1:1 says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" and John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and TRUTH."

So:
1) the Law = Truth (Psalms 119:142)
2) Truth = God's Word (Psalms 119:160)
3) God's Word = Jesus (John 1:1 & 1:14)

Also,
4) Holy Spirit = Truth = The Law (John 16:13: "But when he, the Spirit of TRUTH, comes, he will guide you into all the TRUTH.")

 

[christopheralan88]

Jesus claims that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. John 14:6 His followers obey His commandments and because they obey His commandments, God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) chooses to live within them. It is God's (through the Holy Spirit) continuing living presence within them which continues to save them.

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. rsv

See also: John 14:15, 1 John 3:24
​

True worshipers obey the leaders of His Church because they speak for Him. Jesus appointed the first leaders of His Church.

Luke 10:16
“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” rsv​

Romans 13:1-3
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. rsv

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. rsv
​

The original leaders of the Christ's Church handed down the faith through apostolic succession and that is the way it is still done today. The Apostle Paul's command to Bishop Timothy:

2 Timothy 2:2
and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. rsv​

I agree with you, but I want to clarify one thing. What are Jesus' commands? Consider:

a) Psalm 119:1....Blessed are the undefiled in the WAY, who walk in the LAW OF GOD.
b) Psalm 119:142....Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your LAW is the TRUTH.
c) Proverbs 13:14....The LAW of the wise is a fountain of LIFE, to depart from the snares of death.

So, Jesus is the Law. Or rather, the Law points to Jesus. So, we should be showing our faith/belief/love for Jesus by obeying His commands, which are the Law.

Were you implying that connection?

 

[All4Christ]

Sorry for the delay. I was travelling this weekend.

Interesting...thanks for explaining it more to me. I'll have to look into the history of it. I appreciate your patience.

One more note, we (Orthodox) still consider dusk the evening before to be the start of the day, so that definitely has an impact as well.

I'm glad we can discuss this together to explain our view, even when we agree to disagree.

 

[1John2:4]

The New Covenant is for all people, both Jews and Greeks/Gentiles. It is true that God did promise a new covenant for the Jews in Jeremiah 31:31. But, Jesus did not come to earth to save only the Jews. Jesus did not come to earth to make Greeks/Gentiles into Jews.

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, rsv​

Christians are not ever grafted into Judaism. Both Jews (natural branches) and Gentiles (wild branches) are branches of the one Tree/Jesus Christ/kingdom of God. Jesus Christ's followers are called Christians. Acts 11:26

In Jesus Christ's kingdom, there is no distinction between Jews and Greeks/Gentiles. All are members of Christ's Body, His Bride, His Church. Acts 15:6-10

Because Christians do not ever become Jews, they will not be literally celebrating Sukkot after Jesus returns for His second coming. Everyone who is saved will be participating in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Where in the Bible did God say all of His statutes would change or be undone? The new covenant places His law on our hearts it does not do away with His statutes. Where is this claim biblically defined? It's not in Acts 15 as you claim, the gentiles coming in would be learning these thing in the synagogue where Moses was taught every Sabbath. Acts 15:21

 

[All4Christ]

Where in the Bible did God say all of His statutes would change or be undone? The new covenant places His law on our hearts it does not do away with His statutes. Where is this claim biblically defined? It's not in Acts 15 as you claim, the gentiles coming in would be learning these thing in the synagogue where Moses was taught every Sabbath. Acts 15:21

Have you read about the council of Jerusalem in Acts?

 

[1John2:4]

The answer is that the early church, with good reason, knew that the Pharisees who took over Judaism changed the basis by which dates were reckoned, so Quartodecimianism became non-viable.

The Karaites for that matter also realized this, belatedly, and thus attempted to revert to their interpretation of the historical methodology.

Whether or not the Karaites got it right is of course irrelevant, because the Council of Nicea had ecumenical authority and solved the problem neatly by abandoning Quartodecimianism altogether. Quartodecimianism had really only been commonplace in parts of Asia Minor.

The Passover is the 14th day of the first month Leviticus 23:5.

Jesus said do this to remember Him Luke 22. He wanted His deciples to remember Him on Passover. It's pretty clear in the text, that was how He wanted to be remembered not by Christmas with santa elves and reindeer. He did not desire us to change the date to some after the vernal equinox movable feast called Easter (after who really knows where he name originated from) So it could always be on a Sunday according to the Gregorian calendar.

We have Jewish calendars, not all has been lost. We can still choose to keep the Passover to honor our Messiah the day He asked us to.

 

[1John2:4]

Have you read about the council of Jerusalem in Acts?

Yes have you read Acts 15:21?

 

[All4Christ]

Yes have you read Acts 15:21?

Of course! I don't see that changing my point though. That is a fact stated there.

"For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

The pronouncement from the council is this:

"19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,[d] from things strangled, and from blood. "

"28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well."

Notice that those are some of the key "Noahide" laws.

 

[masmpg]

I agree with you, but I want to clarify one thing. What are Jesus' commands? Consider:

a) Psalm 119:1....Blessed are the undefiled in the WAY, who walk in the LAW OF GOD.
b) Psalm 119:142....Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your LAW is the TRUTH.
c) Proverbs 13:14....The LAW of the wise is a fountain of LIFE, to depart from the snares of death.

So, Jesus is the Law. Or rather, the Law points to Jesus. So, we should be showing our faith/belief/love for Jesus by obeying His commands, which are the Law.

Here is another great bit of wisdom from Solomon Ecclesiastes:12:13: "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."
BUT most protestants will tell you that this is the old testament, and it does not apply, for some reason or another.

 

[1John2:4]

Of course! I don't see that changing my point though. That is a fact stated there.

"For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

The pronouncement from the council is this:

"19 Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, 20 but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,[d] from things strangled, and from blood. "

"28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality.[g] If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well."

Notice that those are some of the key "Noahide" laws.

Thanks for the reply
According to the logic that the gentiles coming into the faith only keep those commands then they can murder, covet, dishonor parents, take the Lord's name in vain, lie, and break the rest of Gods instructions? How does that really work. Doesn't it make more sense that those coming into the faith refrain from those "noahide commandments" as you stated it and learn the rest of Gods instructions when Moses is read in the synagogue every Shabbat?

 

[1John2:4]

Aye, she's completely unknown outside of this obscure reference, and her function as a goddess is inferred by her name (some scholars speculating that eostre comes from "to rise" or "dawn"; so we're not even completely sure what she was a goddess of).

And here's what Bede actually wrote on it (which is even less information):

"De Temporum Ratione" Chapter XV: De mensibus Anglorum (About English Months)

Eostur-monath, qui nunc paschalis mensis interpretetur, quondam a dea illorum quae Eostre vocabatur, et cui in illo festa celebrabant, nomen habuit, a cuius nomine nunc paschale tempus cognominant; consueto antiquae observationis vocabulo gaudia novae solemnitatis vocantes.​

I translate (albeit off the cuff):

Easter-month, which is now interpreted "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honor feasts were celebrated. They [the English/Anglo-saxon converts to Christianity] now named the Paschal Season by that name, calling the joys of the new feast by the name of the old/antiquated observance.​

It seems that the only thing they kept was the name of the season.

Please excuse my ignorance but I am really curious, how come Easter sounds nothing like Paschal but sounds a whole lot like all of these strange spring goddesses? How do we get Easter from Pascha or Pesach isn't it Passover in English? Why not call it Passover? Why change the date what is wrong with the 14th day of the first month of the Hebrew calendar?

 

[All4Christ]

Thanks for the reply
According to the logic that the gentiles coming into the faith only keep those commands then they can murder, covet, dishonor parents, take the Lord's name in vain, lie, and break the rest of Gods instructions? How does that really work. Doesn't it make more sense that those coming into the faith refrain from those "noahide commandments" as you stated it and learn the rest of Gods instructions when Moses is read in the synagogue every Shabbat?

My belief (and again we can agree to disagree) is that there are laws that were specific to the people of Israel (not to be confused with "spiritual Israel" or any other way of describing the New Covenant. The rest of my post refers to this description.). Paul repeatedly refers to the law being written on our hearts. Would you agree?

I don't believe that James was stating that the only sins for Gentiles are violating the Noahide laws. Rather, that is essentially the starting point of what the Jewish Church upheld for Gentiles. We indeed have the commands from Christ, and from the inspired Word of God. However, there were a set of rules given to the people of Israel, in particular the sacrificial laws and to an extent, the Mosaic laws - especially in the legalistic form found by many of the teachers of the Jewish faith at the time of Jesus.

The Mosaic law can be divided into three parts or sections, roughly the moral, social and ceremonial laws. (Do you believe we still need to follow the ceremonial laws?). Now Jesus stated some of the laws in the New Testament, the greatest of which is to Love our neighbor as ourselves (simplified wording). The fulfilled law embodies the moral principles found in the law of Moses. Paul calls this the "righteousness of the law - Romans 8;2. These principles are commanded of the spirit-directed life. Check out Romans 6-8.

The Mosaic law was primarily a covenant for Israel to govern her life in the promised land. These laws covered all spheres of life, including moral, social, political economical and religious precepts. While these were specifically given for the guidance of Israel, there are many moral laws that continued in the spirit of the law. Again, you can see this in Jesus' commandments and the writings of the New Testament epistles. However, the strict implementation of these laws cannot save us. The Mosaic law maintained a proper relationship between God and His people Israel until the coming of Christ. It guided Israel as a prototype of the spiritual law continued by Christ once He fulfilled the law.

Our Lord did not destroy the law, but it no longer is based on human actions, but on the Grace of God and the desire to follow His direction for our lives. Our God Incarnate came to fulfill the law. Now that our eternal Paschal lamb has been given to us, through our second birth, we live the law in the true sense as God intended it. The strict Mosaic law was a guardian until the coming of Christ - a prototype of the fulfilled law upon the coming of our Lord and Savior. Ultimately, we are not subject to the Mosaic law, but we are subject to walking by the Spirit of the Law - the fulfilled law, through faith and assistance of the Holy Spirit. We cannot avoid living the life God calls us to live, but must seek to become more like Christ.

As it is written in Romans 6:3-6:

"Know ye not, that so many of us were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

That is the main point to remember. We walk in newness of life, and we should not serve sin, but rather life in the likeness of His resurrection. Our old lives are buried with Him and are put to death, and our new lives should be conformed not to the world, but to God.

I hope this is helpful in explaining my beliefs. By no means do we need to agree, but I do hope this helps show why I believe what I believe.

 

[1John2:4]

Paul repeatedly refers to the law being written on our hearts. Would you agree?

I believe that when we believe and repent we receive His Spirit Acts 2:38 Once we receive the gift it helps us to walk in righteousness. Sin is transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4. When we read and hear His Word and we act and do contrary to it after we know it the spirit will grieve us. Paul said I have not known sin except by the law without the law I would not have known covetousness. Sorry I paraphrased that it may not be word for word.

 

[All4Christ]

I believe that when we believe and repent we receive His Spirit Acts 2:38 Once we receive the gift it helps us to walk in righteousness. Sin is transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4. When we read and hear His Word and we act and do contrary to it after we know it the spirit will grieve us. Paul said I have not known sin except by the law without the law I would not have known covetousness. Sorry I paraphrased that it may not be word for word.

I would agree, with the exception of believing that the New Testament context references the fulfilled law - the law written on our hearts. We still have the "law", but not in the same context of the strict Mosaic law. Rather it is in the context of the spiritual law written on our hearts upon rebirth and regeneration. After all, Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. We must follow the fulfilled law of Christ.

 

[1John2:4]

However, there were a set of rules given to the people of Israel, in particular the sacrificial laws and to an extent, the Mosaic laws - especially in the legalistic form found by many of the teachers of the Jewish faith at the time of Jesus.

Friend - Jesus came against the Pharisees adding things to Gods law and teaching law while being hypocrites. He said himself I have not come to abolish the law and the prophets Matthew 5:17. These noahide laws you are speaking of where is this biblical? Also where is the law carved up into 3 parts moral ceremonial and social. Those things are not exactly Biblical. The Bible I read does not carve up and justify not keeping Gods instructions nor does it classify anything like noahide laws for gentiles only. I am not sure where you have embarked on those doctrines but I have never come across them in the Bible. If you can point me to where the Bible devides up the law I will stand corrected.