Are we allowed to partake in Christmas?

[1John2:4]

I would agree, with the exception of believing that the New Testament context references the fulfilled law - the law written on our hearts. We still have the "law", but not in the same context of the strict Mosaic law. Rather it is in the context of the spiritual law written on our hearts upon rebirth and regeneration. After all, Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. We must follow the fulfilled law of Christ.

Dear sister in Christ I don't intend to be harsh to you, please excuse me if I have come across that way. I am really trying to understand Where is this found in the Bible? God does not change, sin is sin, transgression of Gods law. Christ is not a minister of sin, He never condones us walking contrary to Gods instructions.

 

[All4Christ]

Friend - Jesus came against the Pharisees adding things to Gods law and teaching law while being hypocrites. He said himself I have not come to abolish the law and the prophets Matthew 5:17. These noahide laws you are speaking of where is this biblical? Also where is the law carved up into 3 parts moral ceremonial and social. Those things are not exactly Biblical. The Bible I read does not carve up and justify not keeping Gods instructions nor does it classify anything like noahide laws for gentiles only. I am not sure where you have embarked on those doctrines but I have never come across them in the Bible. If you can point me to where the Bible devides up the law I will stand corrected.

I certainly agree with Matthew 5:17 (see my post that I believe was written as you wrote your latest post ).

Some of what I wrote was through exegesis and certainly is not written directly (in regards to moral, ceremonial and social). Most Messianic Christians I know do not believe we need to keep the sacrificial laws, and many do not believe we need to keep the social laws. For example, do women need to be cleansed after the monthly cycle and stay away from all until it is completed and they go to the temple to be pronounced "clean"? This would be one of the social (or perhaps sacrificial) laws. Does that make sense?

Regarding Judaism (which Jesus did follow), a Gentile does not have to follow the Mosaic Law, but does need to follow Noahide laws. While it does not specifically list those in one place in Scripture, it does have Biblical basis. Noah was given three commands as they exited the ark. See Genesis 9:1, Genesis 9:4, and Genesis 9:6. Acts 15:1 repeats the concept of Noahide laws in the scriptures I listed above.

I would say that the Noahide laws are not found as a definitive list in our canon of Scripture. However, as the early Christians grew up according to Jewish Tradition, I believe the other Jewish teachings can be helpful in understanding this, considering the scriptures I listed above.

ETA: The various "types" of laws can also be found in the different sections of scripture. The sacrificial laws can be found in certain areas, moral laws in other areas, and social laws in different sections of Scripture again.

 

[All4Christ]

Dear sister in Christ I don't intend to be harsh to you, please excuse me if I have come across that way. I am really trying to understand Where is this found in the Bible? God does not change, sin is sin, transgression of Gods law. Christ is not a minister of sin, He never condones us walking contrary to Gods instructions.

Forgive me for leaving this right now, but I need to get back to work. I will respond to this soon once I am free to spend more time without interfering with my job.

 

[1John2:4]

Forgive me for leaving this right now, but I need to get back to work. I will respond to this soon once I am free to spend more time without interfering with my job.

Ha - me too ttyl

 

[All4Christ]

One more quick point about sections of law (It's hard to stop thinking about Theology once I get into it!)

Here is an example of separation in Leviticus:

• 
  I. Sacrifice (1-17)
  • 
    A. The Laws of Sacrifice for Approach to God (1-7)
    
    B. The Laws of the Priests (8-10)
    
    C. The Laws Regarding Purity (11-15)
    
    D. The Laws of National Atonement (16-17)
  II. Sanctification (18-27)
  
  • 
    A. The Laws of Sanctification for God’s People (18-20)
    
    B. The Laws of Sanctification for God’s Priests (21-22)
    
    C. The Laws of Sanctification in Worship (23-24)
    
    D. The Laws of Sanctification in the Land of Canaan (25-26)
    
    E. The Laws of Sanctification and Vows (27)

http://www.padfield.com/acrobat/ot/leviticus.pdf

 

[Winken]

My belief (and again we can agree to disagree) is that there are laws that were specific to the people of Israel (not to be confused with "spiritual Israel" or any other way of describing the New Covenant. The rest of my post refers to this description.). Paul repeatedly refers to the law being written on our hearts. Would you agree?

I don't believe that James was stating that the only sins for Gentiles are violating the Noahide laws. Rather, that is essentially the starting point of what the Jewish Church upheld for Gentiles. We indeed have the commands from Christ, and from the inspired Word of God. However, there were a set of rules given to the people of Israel, in particular the sacrificial laws and to an extent, the Mosaic laws - especially in the legalistic form found by many of the teachers of the Jewish faith at the time of Jesus.

The Mosaic law can be divided into three parts or sections, roughly the moral, social and ceremonial laws. (Do you believe we still need to follow the ceremonial laws?). Now Jesus stated some of the laws in the New Testament, the greatest of which is to Love our neighbor as ourselves (simplified wording). The fulfilled law embodies the moral principles found in the law of Moses. Paul calls this the "righteousness of the law - Romans 8;2. These principles are commanded of the spirit-directed life. Check out Romans 6-8.

The Mosaic law was primarily a covenant for Israel to govern her life in the promised land. These laws covered all spheres of life, including moral, social, political economical and religious precepts. While these were specifically given for the guidance of Israel, there are many moral laws that continued in the spirit of the law. Again, you can see this in Jesus' commandments and the writings of the New Testament epistles. However, the strict implementation of these laws cannot save us. The Mosaic law maintained a proper relationship between God and His people Israel until the coming of Christ. It guided Israel as a prototype of the spiritual law continued by Christ once He fulfilled the law.

Our Lord did not destroy the law, but it no longer is based on human actions, but on the Grace of God and the desire to follow His direction for our lives. Our God Incarnate came to fulfill the law. Now that our eternal Paschal lamb has been given to us, through our second birth, we live the law in the true sense as God intended it. The strict Mosaic law was a guardian until the coming of Christ - a prototype of the fulfilled law upon the coming of our Lord and Savior. Ultimately, we are not subject to the Mosaic law, but we are subject to walking by the Spirit of the Law - the fulfilled law, through faith and assistance of the Holy Spirit. We cannot avoid living the life God calls us to live, but must seek to become more like Christ.

As it is written in Romans 6:3-6:

"Know ye not, that so many of us were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

That is the main point to remember. We walk in newness of life, and we should not serve sin, but rather life in the likeness of His resurrection. Our old lives are buried with Him and are put to death, and our new lives should be conformed not to the world, but to God.

I hope this is helpful in explaining my beliefs. By no means do we need to agree, but I do hope this helps show why I believe what I believe.

I'm praying that God will miraculously grant me your writing skills!

 

[Winken]

One more quick point about sections of law (It's hard to stop thinking about Theology once I get into it!)

Here is an example of separation in Leviticus:

• 
  I. Sacrifice (1-17)
  • 
    A. The Laws of Sacrifice for Approach to God (1-7)
    
    B. The Laws of the Priests (8-10)
    
    C. The Laws Regarding Purity (11-15)
    
    D. The Laws of National Atonement (16-17)
  II. Sanctification (18-27)
  • 
    A. The Laws of Sanctification for God’s People (18-20)
    
    B. The Laws of Sanctification for God’s Priests (21-22)
    
    C. The Laws of Sanctification in Worship (23-24)
    
    D. The Laws of Sanctification in the Land of Canaan (25-26)
    
    E. The Laws of Sanctification and Vows (27)

http://www.padfield.com/acrobat/ot/leviticus.pdf

Thanks for listing those!

 

[All4Christ]

I'm praying that God will miraculously grant me your writing skills!

Thank you! I'm glad it made sense.

I hope these conversations can help someone who reads them! I believe it is good for us to discuss our beliefs. I think it often helps remind us why we believe what we believe.

 

[1John2:4]

One more quick point about sections of law (It's hard to stop thinking about Theology once I get into it!)

Here is an example of separation in Leviticus:

• 
  I. Sacrifice (1-17)
  • 
    A. The Laws of Sacrifice for Approach to God (1-7)
    
    B. The Laws of the Priests (8-10)
    
    C. The Laws Regarding Purity (11-15)
    
    D. The Laws of National Atonement (16-17)
  II. Sanctification (18-27)
  • 
    A. The Laws of Sanctification for God’s People (18-20)
    
    B. The Laws of Sanctification for God’s Priests (21-22)
    
    C. The Laws of Sanctification in Worship (23-24)
    
    D. The Laws of Sanctification in the Land of Canaan (25-26)
    
    E. The Laws of Sanctification and Vows (27)

http://www.padfield.com/acrobat/ot/leviticus.pdf

Thanks for the reply, I will look and study on this so give me a little time to reply I don't just want to rattle something off without taking the time to review your post

 

[christopheralan88]

Yes. Seriously. I will not entertain a conspiracy theory that somehow Germanic tribes held unbroken lines of Babylonian customs. It's benighted at best.



The Chronography of 354 explicitly shows that Saturnalia and Christmas did not overlap. So there is no "1-2 day" wiggleroom that somehow allowed them to. And during Jesus' time on earth, Saturnalia was only 3 days long (Augustus lengthened it from 1 day to 3).

Jewish days were calculated differently from Roman days, starting at sundown, so the Jewish reckoning of a 7-day Roman festival came out to 8 Jewish days. Every Roman calendar shows the 17th to the 23rd inclusive.

And as a final bit, the Talmud ascribes Saurnalia's origins to Adam, claiming that it was later usurped by the pagans.



1) That's methodologically sloppy, and 2) there are no people who "still observe Saturnalia". Saturnalia as a holiday stopped well over a thousand years ago. There is no unbroken chain of celebration, modern pagans revived and (in many places wrongly) reconstructed it.



Every mosaic depicting Saturnalia. Laurels were the plant of Apollo.

(Saturnalia being celebrated on the right by playing dice. Laurels are the border.)

(December Saturnalia celebration. Laurel wreaths on the heads of the musicians.)



Kindly re-read what I wrote.



The Encyclopedia was demonstrably mistaken. There are sources. I provided them.



It's a Persian fallow deer, click the link. Note the distinctive markings and distinctive horns. And the fact that reindeer don't live in nor can they survive in Mesopotamia. That you insist that it is a reindeer speaks volumes.

But it turns out that this carving isn't even of Nimrod after all.

He wasn't the "original sun god."

He was not born on December 25th. This is mostly due to the fact that there was no December in Nimrod's time (the Julian calendar wasn't invented for ~2,000+ years).

There is no evidence of Nimrod worshiping trees, nor tree worship being associated with him, nor of evergreens.



God bless you. God sincerely bless you.

I just ran that search, and what I found gave me a chuckle. You're taking what some conspiracy nutjobs put up for face value uncritically as if it was the Gospel truth. Those links conflate the Biblical Nimrod with Tammuz and Baal and even the Anunaki and mash everything and the kitchen sink together without a shred of actual primary evidence. They take pictures that don't portray Nimrod and label them improperly. And the spelling and grammar mistakes are terrible. No wonder you have no problem with reindeer in the Mediterranean. That put it all into perspective for me.

May God bless you and keep you. I'm done spending my time responding to you.

Well, I know you've already said you're done responding, but I'll just mention three things for clarification in case you read this:

1) Laurels are a type of evergreen, which means evergreens are associated with Saturnalia.
2) When I said to google "Nimrod evergreen worship" I should have clarified to look under images. Yes, you will find crazy stuff with any google search, especially an image search. What I was hoping you would see are pictures like these:

Nimrod evergreen worship - Google Search

Nimrod evergreen worship - Google Search

Nimrod evergreen worship - Google Search

3) You don't buy a Babylonian - German connection, so I'm interested how you explain a mother-child worship being so pervasive in so many cultures - even as far as Japan.

Just for the record, I knew when I typed "reindeer" you would have a field day with that , I guess I was naively hoping that you would make the connection: Nimrod:deer, Santa:reindeer. I'll be more explicit next time.

Regardless, I appreciate your challenges. I will look into the sources myself.

 

[SteveCaruso]

Please excuse my ignorance but I am really curious, how come Easter sounds nothing like Paschal but sounds a whole lot like all of these strange spring goddesses?

Beade explained that. I quoted him.

How do we get Easter from Pascha or Pesach isn't it Passover in English? Why not call it Passover?

Why is it "Tuesday" in English? Not "Tlatha"?

"Passover" is a relative neologism in English. Tyndale coined it.

Why change the date what is wrong with the 14th day of the first month of the Hebrew calendar?

Which calculation of the calendar? Hillel's calculated/fixed calendar? The Karaite calendar?

 

[1John2:4]

Beade explained that. I quoted him.



Why is it "Tuesday" in English? Not "Tlatha"?

"Passover" is a relative neologism in English. Tyndale coined it.



Which calculation of the calendar? Hillel's calculated/fixed calendar? The Karaite calendar?

I suppose it would be Hillel because I use my mother's calendar and she is not a Karaite Jew. I noticed this last year most of the fall Moedim fell on the moon cycle pretty accurate. The moon cycle for Passover was a day off but I live in Texas not Jerusalem so maybe it was spot on then. I also noticed Easter was almost a whole month off, it was not even close by anyones cauculations.

 

[All4Christ]

I suppose it would be Hillel because I use my mother's calendar and she is not a Karaite Jew. I noticed this last year most of the fall Moedim fell on the moon cycle pretty accurate. The moon cycle for Passover was a day off but I live in Texas not Jerusalem so maybe it was spot on then. I also noticed Easter was almost a whole month off, it was not even close by anyones cauculations.

A tidbit that may interest you: In 2016, Pascha was the day after Passover (according to he Calendar of Hillel) was over (May 1). As I mentioned earlier, the difference is a product of the readjusted calculation due to calendar creep. Note that the updated calendar (to address calendar creep) from Hillel was in about 358 AD, while the Christians at the Council of Nicea updated the calculation (also to address calendar creep) in 325 AD.

I believe (and @Steve Caruso feel free to correct me) that the Gregorian Calendar was a further reform in Western Christianity to correct calendar creep in the Julian Calendar. I'm not sure how the Gregorian calendar is calculated.

 

[1John2:4]

Thanks so much for the info. That is interesting. The calendar of Hillel is still based on the phases of the moon unlike the Gregorian solar calendar we use today. I think we have really gone astray from the original post but this is quite an interesting topic. Maybe I can place a thread in M J forum and we can continue to talk about it there. A lot of Messianics get really into this calendar stuff. As for me I'm not too good at math, this calendar stuff confuses me a bit. I have a busy couple of days ahead, I just lost my mother in law so I maybe out here in there a bit but I will let you know when I start that calendar thread

 

[All4Christ]

Thanks so much for the info. That is interesting. The calendar of Hillel is still based on the phases of the moon unlike the Gregorian solar calendar we use today. I think we have really gone astray from the original post but this is quite an interesting topic. Maybe I can place a thread in M J forum and we can continue to talk about it there. A lot of Messianics get really into this calendar stuff. As for me I'm not too good at math, this calendar stuff confuses me a bit. I have a busy couple of days ahead, I just lost my mother in law so I maybe out here in there a bit but I will let you know when I start that calendar thread

Am I permitted to discuss that there, since I am not MJ?

I'm sorry to hear about your mother in law! Memory Eternal!

 

[1John2:4]

Am I permitted to discuss that there, since I am not MJ?

I'm sorry to hear about your mother in law! Memory Eternal!

I think you are permitted to converse, you can not post. I am not allowed to post anywhere but there thanks so very much for the condolences. I am a girl(just FYI) my husband is having a really hard time with loosing his mom I do appreciate your concern you are very loving

 

[All4Christ]

I think you are permitted to converse, you can not post. I am not allowed to post anywhere but there

Thanks for the info!

thanks so very much for the condolences. I am a girl(just FYI) my husband is having a really hard time with loosing his mom I do appreciate your concern you are very loving

Always! That's what brothers and sisters in Christ are for Take your time to spend all the time you need for your husband!

I too am a girl For some reason, many people think I am a guy, despite my caption under my avatar!

 

[1John2:4]

Thanks for the info!


Always! That's what brothers and sisters in Christ are for Take your time to spend all the time you need for your husband!

I too am a girl For some reason, many people think I am a guy, despite my caption under my avatar!

Lol yeah mine is my avatar name. I guess I should have used a verse from Ruth or Esther

 

[All4Christ]

Lol yeah mine is my avatar name. I guess I should have used a verse from Ruth or Esther

Tapatalk and other similar platforms probably contribute to it (for both of us) since they hide all use information except for the username.

 

[Jan001]

I agree with you, but I want to clarify one thing. What are Jesus' commands? Consider:

a) Psalm 119:1....Blessed are the undefiled in the WAY, who walk in the LAW OF GOD.
b) Psalm 119:142....Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and your LAW is the TRUTH.
c) Proverbs 13:14....The LAW of the wise is a fountain of LIFE, to depart from the snares of death.

So, Jesus is the Law. Or rather, the Law points to Jesus. So, we should be showing our faith/belief/love for Jesus by obeying His commands, which are the Law.

Were you implying that connection?

Jesus always obeyed the spirit of the law of Moses Luke 10:27, but He did not always obey the letter of the law of Moses. He healed on the Sabbath. Luke 13:11-16 He and His disciples gleaned on the Sabbath. Matthew 12:1-5

Jesus finished (ended) the law of Moses (Old Covenant) by His death on the cross John 19:30. Jesus instituted His new law (New Covenant) by His death on the cross. Romans 10:4 Christians are not under the Old Covenant Law.of Moses. Christians are under the New Covenant Law of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the New Covenant between God and mankind.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. rsv

Romans 7:4
Likewise, my brethren, you have died to the law (of Moses) through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead in order that we may bear fruit for God. rsv

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (New Covenant) has set me free from the law of sin and death (Old Covenant). rsv

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law (of Moses), having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree”— rsv

Galatians 3:23-25
Now before faith came, we were confined under the law (of Moses), kept under restraint until faith (law of Christ) should be revealed. 24 So that the law (of Moses) was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith (law of Christ). 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian (law of Moses); rsv


The Law of Jesus Christ:

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Galatians 6:2
Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.