Are we allowed to partake in Christmas?

[All4Christ]

Right, Paul said keep the feast not move it to a new day separate from the Jews and add eggs and bunnies.

Pascha isn't a Feast about eggs and bunnies. That's irrelevant. We are still keeping the Feast, the fulfilled Feast, on the day of Resurrection.

 

[christopheralan88]

Pascha isn't a Feast about eggs and bunnies. That's irrelevant. We are still keeping the Feast, the fulfilled Feast, on the day of Resurrection.

So, in Exodus 12:1-6 God lays out that Passover is to be celebrated on the first month/new moon of the year and slaughter the Passover lamb on the 14th day of that month. The Jews say that the first month is roughly around April. So, what did Nicea do exactly to determine their date of May 1st?

Also, how can you keep Pasca, which is supposed to be Passover, when Jesus was resurrected? He died on Passover, but was resurrected 3 days later. They're not the same day.

Sorry, if I'm not trying to be difficult, I've really just never heard of Pascha before.

 

[All4Christ]

So, in Exodus 12:1-6 God lays out that Passover is to be celebrated on the first month/new moon of the year and slaughter the Passover lamb on the 14th day of that month. The Jews say that the first month is roughly around April. So, what did Nicea do exactly to determine their date of May 1st?

Also, how can you keep Pasca, which is supposed to be Passover, when Jesus was resurrected? He died on Passover, but was resurrected 3 days later. They're not the same day.

Sorry, if I'm not trying to be difficult, I've really just never heard of Pascha before.

In the early church, Christians celebrated Pascha on different days. We tried to use the same calculations used by the Jewish Passover. Some believed that Jesus died on Passover...others the day after. I think it is related to Sabbath and High Sabbath? The gospels aren't completely clear on this, as some seemed to say one day while others said another. Then, to top that off, calculations of Passover sometimes placed it before the Spring Equinox due to the Julian calendar creep. Because of this, a new calculation was determined. There needed to be a relationship with the Jewish Passover, since Jesus is our Passover, but we wanted it to be after the Spring Equinox like it was when Jesus died and resurrected. After all, the Torah prescribes it to be held "in the month of [the] spring" (בחדש האביב Exodus 23:15). We also wanted to all celebrate it at the same time. Also, as Jesus was resurrected on the "eighth" day (think about the first fruits, plus 1 Corinthians 15), we wanted to always celebrate it then, on the "day of resurrection ". Note that we calculate Pascha based on the Julian, not Gregorian, calendar. While Pascha may be in March on the Gregorian calendar, it is the equivalent of "April" on the Julian calendar.

If this isn't clear, please let me know...I'm tired and may not be as clear right now

ETA: I found the calendar change I was referencing...when a calculation with leap years was created in the 4th century. How Does the Spring Equinox Relate to the Timing of Passover? - About the Jewish Leap Year

 

[SteveCaruso]

English and German are the only two languages that refer to Easter/Ostern.

Precisely. And Venerable Beade explained why this was the case. Early English and Germanic speakers just referred to Pascha by the name of the month it fell on (Eastermonth). Most modern English speakers use the Gregorian calendar now. Eastermonth was April.

 

[AvgJoe]

Hello, this is my first December season after having read the Bible and I am unsure about celebrating Christmas. Isn't it a pagan tradition? I remember reading Jeremiah 10:3-4 and thinking about this issue.

Personally at this moment, I feel christmas has nothing to do with Jesus and according to Jer 10, a christmas tree is a pagan practice that gentiles practice.

What are your thoughts on Christians celebrating this day?

The debate about whether or not Christians should celebrate Christmas has been raging for centuries. There are equally sincere and committed Christians on both sides of the issue, each with multiple reasons why or why not Christmas should be celebrated in Christian homes. But what does the Bible say? Does the Bible give clear direction as to whether Christmas is a holiday to be celebrated by Christians?

First, let’s look at the reasons why some Christians do not celebrate Christmas. One argument against Christmas is that the traditions surrounding the holiday have origins in paganism. Searching for reliable information on this topic is difficult because the origins of many of our traditions are so obscure that sources often contradict one another. Bells, candles, holly, and yuletide decorations are mentioned in the history of pagan worship, but the use of such in one’s home certainly does not indicate a return to paganism. While there are definitely pagan roots to some traditions, there are many more traditions associated with the true meaning of Christmas—the birth of the Savior of the world in Bethlehem. Bells are played to ring out the joyous news, candles are lit to remind us that Christ is the Light of the world (John 1:4-9), a star is placed on the top of a Christmas tree to remember the Star of Bethlehem, and gifts are exchanged to remind us of the gifts of the Magi to Jesus, the greatest gift of God to mankind.

Another argument against Christmas, especially having a Christmas tree, is that the Bible forbids bringing trees into our homes and decorating them. The passage often cited is Jeremiah 10:1-16, but this passage refers to cutting down trees, chiseling the wood to make an idol, and then decorating the idol with silver and gold for the purpose of bowing down before it to worship it (see also Isaiah 44:9-18). The passage in Jeremiah cannot be taken out of its context and used to make a legitimate argument against Christmas trees.

Christians who choose to ignore Christmas point to the fact that the Bible doesn’t give us the date of Christ’s birth, which is certainly true. December 25 may not be even close to the time Jesus was born, and arguments on both sides are legion, some relating to climate in Israel, the practices of shepherds in winter, and the dates of Roman census-taking. None of these points are without a certain amount of conjecture, which brings us back to the fact that the Bible doesn’t tell us when Jesus was born. Some see this as proof positive that God didn’t want us to celebrate the birth, while others see the Bible’s silence on the issue as tacit approval.

Some Christians say that since the world celebrates Christmas—although it is becoming more and more politically correct to refer to it as “the holidays”—Christians should avoid it. But that is the same argument made by false religions that deny Christ altogether, as well as cults such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses who deny His deity. Those Christians who do celebrate Christmas often see the occasion as an opportunity to proclaim Christ as “the reason for the season” among the nations and to those trapped in false religions.

As we have seen, there is no legitimate scriptural reason not to celebrate Christmas. At the same time, there is no biblical mandate to celebrate it, either. In the end, of course, whether or not to celebrate Christmas is a personal decision. Whatever Christians decide to do regarding Christmas, their views should not be used as a club with which to beat down or denigrate those with opposing views, nor should either view be used as a badge of honor inducing pride over celebrating or not celebrating. As in all things, we seek wisdom from Him who gives it liberally to all who ask (James 1:5) and accept one another in Christian love and grace, regardless of our views on Christmas.

 

[1John2:4]

I found this in the Catholic Encyclopedia thought I would share
Easter | Catholic Answers
Easter. —The English term, according to the Ven. Bede (De temporum ratione, I, v), relates to Eôstre, a Teutonic goddess of the rising light of day and spring, which deity, however, is otherwise unknown, even in the Edda (Simrock, Mythol., 362); Anglo-Saxon, eaester, eaestron; Old High German, ôstra, ôstrara, ôstrarün; German, Ostern. April was called easter-monadh. The plural eaestron is used, because the feast lasts seven days. Like the French plural Paeques, it is a translation from the Latin Festa Paschalia, the entire octave of Easter. The Greek term for Easter, pascha, has nothing in common with the verb paschein, " to suffer", although by the later symbolic writers it was connected with it; it is the Aramaic form of the Hebrew word pesach (transitus, passover). The Greeks call Easter the pascha anastasimon; Good Friday the pascha staurosimon. The respective terms used by the Latins are Pascha resurrectionis and Pascha crucifixionis. In the Roman and Monastic Breviaries the feast bears the title Dominica Resurrectionis; in the Mozarabic Breviary, In Laetatione Diei Paschoe Resurrectionis; in the Ambrosian Breviary, In Die Sancto Paschoe. The Romance languages have adopted the Hebrew-Greek term: Latin, Pascha; Italian, Pasqua; Spanish, Pascua; French, Paeques. Also some Celtic and Teutonic nations use it: Scotch, Pask; Dutch, Paschen; Danish, Paaske; Swedish, Pask; even in the German provinces of the Lower Rhine the people call the feast Paisken not Ostern. The word is, principally in Spain and Italy, identified with the word "solemnity" and extended to other feasts, e.g. Sp., Pascua florida, Palm Sunday; Pascua de Pentecostes, Pentecost; Pascua de la Natividad, Christmas; Pascua de Epifania, Epiphany. In some parts of France also First Communion is called Paques, whatever time of the year administered.

 

[masmpg]

Hello, this is my first December season after having read the Bible and I am unsure about celebrating Christmas. Isn't it a pagan tradition? I remember reading Jeremiah 10:3-4 and thinking about this issue.

Personally at this moment, I feel christmas has nothing to do with Jesus and according to Jer 10, a christmas tree is a pagan practice that gentiles practice.

What are your thoughts on Christians celebrating this day?

I agree and am quite surprised that you have gleaned this truth from God's word.

With the Christmas season what it is, a mere round of extreme commercial bombardment, there is no way to hide it. While raising my children we would drive around and show them the "pretty lights" as they called them, but that is as far as it went about the lights and decorations. The tree is an idol which has become some sort of ritualistic "Christian" tradition for some reason. Do some research on the internet about the origins of Christmas, the catholic connection, and read all sides of the story, there are many. What we use to do with our children was to build a manger and put a baby doll in the manger and put the gifts under the manger, as if we were giving them to Jesus. Even though this is a compromise it was a way to not lead my children into believing the tree along with all its pagan symbols is somehow Christian. There was no way to hide the commercial nonsense from them. We home schooled our children so the rest of the satana (santa=satan) traditions and easter bunnies, and frostie the snowman were kept from them.

A very interesting aside is that their grandparents, my inlaws kept criticizing us for not reading fairy tales and mind bending trash with no meaning. They said our children will have no imagination. One year my son woke up one morning, this was around the Christmas season, and he said he had a dream. His dream was that he was sitting on Jesus lap and Jesus was telling him bible stories. Every Christmas we would spend it with the inlaws just because of tradition. That year we brought up the inlaws accusations about not having any imagination, LOL we put my son in the middle of all the families that were there, he was about 4 years old. They usually had around 40 people there and my son Jeremiah (RIP) told them his story. The inlaws were silent for a long time, you could hear a pin drop after he was done! I finally said "hows that for imagination"!

 

[All4Christ]

"The Catholic connection". Amazing how people often use that as a way to dismiss things. "The Catholics created it, so it must be wrong! It has the word mass in it which is Catholic, which is a sign it is not a good Christian practice!" to just name a few in this thread. Consider for a minute that Catholics are Christians. I'm not Catholic, but I hate it when people reference a connection with Catholics as a reason to not agree with something. Plus in regards to Mass, it certainly isn't just Catholics who celebrate mass.

 

[Winken]

Can you tell me what the truth is that Jesus mentioned in John 4:23? Please use Scripture.

Concerning you saying that studying the history of pagan holidays is worthless and meaningless, Scripture would disagree with you - "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 1:9).

John 4:23 testifies to the Truth that Jesus came as the Redeemer of the Hebrew Nation: to redeem an entire nation as a people group. No longer would earthlings worship in temples made with hands, following one ritual after another. He said quite clearly that the time (for transition) is now.

Through the Apostle Paul, He brought the Truth of God's Grace to everyone, everywhere, one-by-one, through each one's confession of Faith in Jesus Christ as Savior.

These are the central features of the Ministry of Jesus during His time on earth, and His witness to Paul after the Cross.

Click on this link for this wonderful Truth in scripture:

Content On: Worship (Personal)

May God add His Blessing to the reading of His Word.

 

[SteveCaruso]

The Babylonian connection is tenous at best?? Seriously?

Yes. Seriously. I will not entertain a conspiracy theory that somehow Germanic tribes held unbroken lines of Babylonian customs. It's benighted at best.

You don't want to give the ancients with their NON-MODERN calculations and tools a 1-2 day break? Also, remember that the Talmud says that the festival lasted 8 days. That would bring it to the 24th.

The Chronography of 354 explicitly shows that Saturnalia and Christmas did not overlap. So there is no "1-2 day" wiggleroom that somehow allowed them to. And during Jesus' time on earth, Saturnalia was only 3 days long (Augustus lengthened it from 1 day to 3).

Jewish days were calculated differently from Roman days, starting at sundown, so the Jewish reckoning of a 7-day Roman festival came out to 8 Jewish days. Every Roman calendar shows the 17th to the 23rd inclusive.

And as a final bit, the Talmud ascribes Saurnalia's origins to Adam, claiming that it was later usurped by the pagans.

No, I don't know their source, but I'm going to give some credibility to them because who would be more motivated to research this than those who still observe Saturnalia?

1) That's methodologically sloppy, and 2) there are no people who "still observe Saturnalia". Saturnalia as a holiday stopped well over a thousand years ago. There is no unbroken chain of celebration, modern pagans revived and (in many places wrongly) reconstructed it.

Can you cite your source that says they used laurels?

Every mosaic depicting Saturnalia. Laurels were the plant of Apollo.

(Saturnalia being celebrated on the right by playing dice. Laurels are the border.)

(December Saturnalia celebration. Laurel wreaths on the heads of the musicians.)

you didn't address the similarities of gift giving, wreaths, evergreens being decorated, merry-making, and the fact that Saturnalia is a celebration of the birth of the sun

Kindly re-read what I wrote.

Regardless, it's your word against an encyclopedia.

The Encyclopedia was demonstrably mistaken. There are sources. I provided them.

Sure looks like a reindeer in the image to me, but you can call it a deer. But don't dodge the point. What do you have to say about the similarities between Nimrod - the original sun god born on December 25th and had a religion of tree worship and associations with deer and evergreens?

It's a Persian fallow deer, click the link. Note the distinctive markings and distinctive horns. And the fact that reindeer don't live in nor can they survive in Mesopotamia. That you insist that it is a reindeer speaks volumes.

But it turns out that this carving isn't even of Nimrod after all.

He wasn't the "original sun god."

He was not born on December 25th. This is mostly due to the fact that there was no December in Nimrod's time (the Julian calendar wasn't invented for ~2,000+ years).

There is no evidence of Nimrod worshiping trees, nor tree worship being associated with him, nor of evergreens.

Please google "Nimrod evergreen worship"

God bless you. God sincerely bless you.

I just ran that search, and what I found gave me a chuckle. You're taking what some conspiracy nutjobs put up for face value uncritically as if it was the Gospel truth. Those links conflate the Biblical Nimrod with Tammuz and Baal and even the Anunaki and mash everything and the kitchen sink together without a shred of actual primary evidence. They take pictures that don't portray Nimrod and label them improperly. And the spelling and grammar mistakes are terrible. No wonder you have no problem with reindeer in the Mediterranean. That put it all into perspective for me.

May God bless you and keep you. I'm done spending my time responding to you.

 

[SteveCaruso]

The English term, according to the Ven. Bede (De temporum ratione, I, v), relates to Eôstre, a Teutonic goddess of the rising light of day and spring,

Aye, she's completely unknown outside of this obscure reference, and her function as a goddess is inferred by her name (some scholars speculating that eostre comes from "to rise" or "dawn"; so we're not even completely sure what she was a goddess of).

And here's what Bede actually wrote on it (which is even less information):

"De Temporum Ratione" Chapter XV: De mensibus Anglorum (About English Months)

Eostur-monath, qui nunc paschalis mensis interpretetur, quondam a dea illorum quae Eostre vocabatur, et cui in illo festa celebrabant, nomen habuit, a cuius nomine nunc paschale tempus cognominant; consueto antiquae observationis vocabulo gaudia novae solemnitatis vocantes.​

I translate (albeit off the cuff):

Easter-month, which is now interpreted "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honor feasts were celebrated. They [the English/Anglo-saxon converts to Christianity] now named the Paschal Season by that name, calling the joys of the new feast by the name of the old/antiquated observance.​

It seems that the only thing they kept was the name of the season.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Hello, this is my first December season after having read the Bible and I am unsure about celebrating Christmas. Isn't it a pagan tradition? I remember reading Jeremiah 10:3-4 and thinking about this issue.

Personally at this moment, I feel christmas has nothing to do with Jesus and according to Jer 10, a christmas tree is a pagan practice that gentiles practice.

What are your thoughts on Christians celebrating this day?

It is not Pagan, but anti-Pagan. You should celebrate it to commemorate the birth of our Lord.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

So, Easter and Pascha are the same? I read the Jewish Bible, the "New Testament", and some extra-canonical books (ex: Jasher) (all with different degrees of authority of course) so I probably don't read exactly the same Bible put together by Nicea. But, even if I did read Nicea's Bible, I don't see why I would have to reject all of their decisions just because I potentially disagree with one.

Nicea did not compile a scriptural canon (note to @seashale76 - you are thinking of the NT canon in Paschal Encyclical no. 39 of St. Athanasius, which became authoritative).

 

[Paul Yohannan]

The question I have for you is why is Pasha not kept the same day as the Jewish Passover? Is that not the day He died, why change it? Study some early church history such as Council of Antioc, the anti-Semitic answer may surprise you.

The answer is that the early church, with good reason, knew that the Pharisees who took over Judaism changed the basis by which dates were reckoned, so Quartodecimianism became non-viable.

The Karaites for that matter also realized this, belatedly, and thus attempted to revert to their interpretation of the historical methodology.

Whether or not the Karaites got it right is of course irrelevant, because the Council of Nicea had ecumenical authority and solved the problem neatly by abandoning Quartodecimianism altogether. Quartodecimianism had really only been commonplace in parts of Asia Minor.

 

[Jan001]

I truly believe you love God and his word. The problem I see is some people spiritualize things that dont play into their doctrine sometimes to try and understand. He said we will keep Sukkot that is pretty plain and it does not conflict with Revelation. The only odd one is Ezekiel's account of the end and how it has a temple. I guess we will have to wait to find out how that comes into play.

We are graphted in Romans 11:24
Who is the new covenant for?Jeremiah 31:31 Hebrews 8:8

The New Covenant is for all people, both Jews and Greeks/Gentiles. It is true that God did promise a new covenant for the Jews in Jeremiah 31:31. But, Jesus did not come to earth to save only the Jews. Jesus did not come to earth to make Greeks/Gentiles into Jews.

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, rsv​

Christians are not ever grafted into Judaism. Both Jews (natural branches) and Gentiles (wild branches) are branches of the one Tree/Jesus Christ/kingdom of God. Jesus Christ's followers are called Christians. Acts 11:26

In Jesus Christ's kingdom, there is no distinction between Jews and Greeks/Gentiles. All are members of Christ's Body, His Bride, His Church. Acts 15:6-10

Because Christians do not ever become Jews, they will not be literally celebrating Sukkot after Jesus returns for His second coming. Everyone who is saved will be participating in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

 

[Jan001]

When you quote John 4:23 "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks" I'm curious what you think truth is. Can I ask your opinion based on Scripture?

Jesus claims that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. John 14:6 His followers obey His commandments and because they obey His commandments, God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) chooses to live within them. It is God's (through the Holy Spirit) continuing living presence within them which continues to save them.

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. rsv

See also: John 14:15, [URL='https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John+3:24&version=RSV']1 John 3:24[/URL]
​

True worshipers obey the leaders of His Church because they speak for Him. Jesus appointed the first leaders of His Church.

Luke 10:16
“He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” rsv​

Romans 13:1-3
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. rsv

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you. rsv
​

The original leaders of the Christ's Church handed down the faith through apostolic succession and that is the way it is still done today. The Apostle Paul's command to Bishop Timothy:

2 Timothy 2:2
and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. rsv​

 

[masmpg]

"The Catholic connection". Amazing how people often use that as a way to dismiss things. "The Catholics created it, so it must be wrong! It has the word mass in it which is Catholic, which is a sign it is not a good Christian practice!" to just name a few in this thread. Consider for a minute that Catholics are Christians. I'm not Catholic, but I hate it when people reference a connection with Catholics as a reason to not agree with something. Plus in regards to Mass, it certainly isn't just Catholics who celebrate mass.

All I can say about the mass is that you really should pray and study about what it stands for. What it represents, and what transubstantiation really means, you will not find it in the bible.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

All I can say about the mass is that you really should pray and study about what it stands for. What it represents, and what transubstantiation really means, you will not find it in the bible.

"Mass" refers to the simple ending of the old Roman liturgy "Ite, missa, est" which literally translates as "Go, it is the dismissal." Compare with the (Byzantine Rite) Orthodox form:

"Glory to You, O God, our hope, glory to You.

May Christ our true God (who rose from the dead), as a good, loving, and merciful God, have mercy upon us and save us, through the intercessions of His most pure and holy Mother; the power of the precious and life-giving Cross; the protection of the honorable, bodiless powers of heaven; the supplications of the honorable, glorious, prophet, and forerunner John the Baptist; the holy, glorious, and praiseworthy apostles; the holy, glorious, and triumphant martyrs; our holy and God-bearing Fathers (name of the church); the holy and righteous ancestors Joachim and Anna; Saint (of the day) whose memory we commemorate today, and all the saints."

Does this mean we are worse than the Catholics?

Regarding transubstantiation, au contrair. "Take, eat, this is my body," not, this is a representation of my body, but a point stressed so literally even Martin Luther felt compelled to inscribe on a table "hoc est corpus meum."

Of course in the Orthodox liturgy we go rather beyond the Catholic mass:

Priest (in a low voice):
Once again we offer to You this spiritual worship without the shedding of blood, and we ask, pray, and entreat You: send down Your Holy Spirit upon us and upon these gifts here presented.
And make this bread the precious Body of Your Christ.


(He blesses the holy Bread.)
Deacon (in a low voice):
Amen.

Priest (in a low voice):
And that which is in this cup the precious Blood of Your Christ.

(He blesses the holy Cup.)
Deacon (in a low voice):
Amen.

Priest (in a low voice):
Changing them by Your Holy Spirit.

(He blesses them both.)
Deacon (in a low voice):
Amen. Amen. Amen.

Being Orthodox, @All4Christ is doubtless familiar with this liturgy. So alas your arguments regarding the alleged dark evil of the mass are unconvincing, to me, and I expect will be to her as well, because everything an Adventist might object to in the Roman mass is present to a much greater extent in the Orthodox liturgy.

The curious thing is that we were never under the Pope, and Adventist theology seems to be at a loss as how we could be, by Adventist standards, worse than Catholics, while not being under the rule of the chap you misidentify as the "Beast."

 

[Paul Yohannan]

"The Catholic connection". Amazing how people often use that as a way to dismiss things. "The Catholics created it, so it must be wrong! It has the word mass in it which is Catholic, which is a sign it is not a good Christian practice!" to just name a few in this thread. Consider for a minute that Catholics are Christians. I'm not Catholic, but I hate it when people reference a connection with Catholics as a reason to not agree with something. Plus in regards to Mass, it certainly isn't just Catholics who celebrate mass.

Indeed so.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Hello, this is my first December season after having read the Bible and I am unsure about celebrating Christmas. Isn't it a pagan tradition? I remember reading Jeremiah 10:3-4 and thinking about this issue.

Personally at this moment, I feel christmas has nothing to do with Jesus and according to Jer 10, a christmas tree is a pagan practice that gentiles practice.

What are your thoughts on Christians celebrating this day?

The real Jesus gets more air time at Christmas than any other time of the year. It is a great time to bring Jesus out of the closet.

I love, or at least appreciate Christmas.