Are These Mainstream Doctrines In Need of Reform?

JAL

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InterestedApologist said:
If I may be so bold, I think you are falling into the trap of forcing God into human restraints. When thinking of God, it is important to understand He is a being free of the limitations of humanity, time and space. His characteristics of omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence cannot be fully grasped by the mind of the finite human anymore than a 3 year old can fully comprehend quantum mechanics. Even God’s makeup is foreign to us, as He is a trinity. Due to this, human philosophy will never be capable of answering all the questions about the character and reasoning of God. It is important that any philosophical endeavor related to God be scripturally based, as it is the only resource available to reveal what we can know about the character of God.


Wow. I hardly know where to begin. To make an incomprehensible assertion about God is NOT DOCTRINE - neither false doctrine nor true doctrine - it's just gibberish. CALL IT WHAT IT IS. Othwerwise, you're being intellectually dishonest and potentially DISTANCING THE PEOPLE OF GOD FROM THE TRUTH by disseminating a false sense of security (thus decreasing the likelihood that they will further investigate). Essentially you're saying, "We scholars have already researched these issues and found satisfactory answers - in fact we're so certain/confident of our answers that if you oppose them, we'll brand you as a heretic and excommunicate you from our assemblies." How does that foster reform? Why not just tell the people THE TRUTH? "Yes I'm your leader in this assembly but I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER on this particular issue."

As mentioned earlier, I'm not opposed to QUANTITATIVE confusion (e.g. as to the magnitude/quantity of God's love). But we shouldn't promote QUALITATIVE confusion (e.g. logically inconsistent teachings or total gibberish about the NATURE of love).

InterestedApologist said:
If I may be so bold, I think you are falling into the trap of forcing God into human restraints.
Forcing God into human restraints is PRECISELY what I'm doing - and I make no bones about it. No apologies here, as it's a REQUISITE of theology if we want to avoid absolute gibberish. I'll explain why.

First example. Most people, probably yourself included, read the bible in a language known to them - obviously because it would be pretty useless if they CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE WORDS. If words such as 'heaven' have no recognizable meaning to us, then it doesn't even make sense to preach eternal salvation.

Second example. How do you define love? Probably the same way I do. It is kindness defined as an effort to minimize suffering. This is the human definition of love. And we could likewise articulate a clear definition of all the other virtues (justice, integrity, merit, diligence, etc). And what do we call someone whose behavior DEVIATES from these human definitions? Unkind, unjust, dishonest, slothful, unmeritorious (etc). Again, that's human language.

Not only do I want a Bible written in my own language, I want it to be THE MOST ACCURATE TRANSLATION POSSIBLE. It must:
(A) Use words I can understand.
(B) Accurately represent the truth.
Ok so let's say that God is the sort of being who DEVIATES from the human definitions of the virtues named above. As explained above, this means, to put it in HUMAN LANGUAGE - words that I can understand - that He is: Unkind, unjust, dishonest, slothful, unmeritorious (etc) - AND OUR BIBLE TRANSLATIONS SHOULD BE UPDATED ACCORDINGLY.

Problem is, this leads to a logical contradiction. The very promises that were INTENDED to console us by promising us His eternal kindness would now be trying to 'console' us by promising us His eternal UNKINDNESS! All those 'comforting' verses are now CAUSE FOR ALARM!

This is the sort of nonsense, gibberish, and logical self-contradiction that theology collapses into if it tries to side-step and/or transcend finite human understanding.

Look, this is a forum based on acquiescence to the Nicene Creed. If we can't understand the words - or if the words have no recognizable meaning - then this whole forum, and all of mainstream Christianity as an organization, is a complete joke.

InterestedApologist said:
His characteristics of omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence cannot be fully grasped by the mind of the finite human anymore than a 3 year old can fully comprehend quantum mechanics.
You're assuming that God is infinite - which seems to be precisely one of those humanly incomprehensible doctrines so problematical. Later on I'll probably launch a logical critique of infinitude.


As to this world and why he created man, it seems scripturally evident to me that God desired to create us out of love and for fellowship and intimacy with him. Remember, this world was created perfect for us, and man himself chose to fall. Why the ability to choose disobedience, then? Because God is Love, and desired to be loved by man. There can be no true love without the ability to choose not to love. The ability to choose was an act of love.
He merely DESIRED it? Or NEEDED it? You're saying He made this kind of world just for the fun of it? And the price of all this good fun was nailing His Son to the Cross? Or was Calvary too, all part of the fun in your view?

If God is infinitely self-sufficient, why would He need our existence to have fun?
 
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JAL

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Audianism is heretical.
-CryptoLutheran
Never heard that term before. Glad to hear it thanks. So the doctrine that God assumes a physical human-like form (e.g. Dan 7:9-11) is heresy? Too bad. Looks like we're gonna have to throw out quite a few scriptures.

And I guess that means virtually all evangelical seminaries are heretical? After all, they generally approve of the ISBE (International Bible Standard Encyclopedia), with recent editions based on 200 evangelical scholars as contributors.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia [ISBE], 4 Vols.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Wikipedia

Because here's what the ISBE has to say about Ex 33:23:
"The glory of Yahweh is clearly a physical manifestation, a form with hands and rear parts, of which Moses is permitted to catch only a passing glimpse, but the implication is clear that he actually does see Yahweh with his physical eyes."

And I guess we'd better condemn Augustine as well? When he noted that every apparition of God in both the OT and the NT was a physical substance?
 
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InterestedApologist

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Wow. I hardly know where to begin. To make an incomprehensible assertion about God is NOT DOCTRINE - neither false doctrine nor true doctrine - it's just gibberish. CALL IT WHAT IT IS. Othwerwise, you're being intellectually dishonest and potentially DISTANCING THE PEOPLE OF GOD FROM THE TRUTH by disseminating a false sense of security (thus decreasing the likelihood that they will further investigate). Essentially you're saying, "We scholars have already researched these issues and found satisfactory answers - in fact we're so certain/confident of our answers that if you oppose them, we'll brand you as a heretic and excommunicate you from our assemblies." How does that foster reform? Why not just tell the people THE TRUTH? "Yes I'm your leader in this assembly but I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER on this particular issue."

I’m not sure what you are getting at here. The thrust of my post is precisely that we cannot know it all, as we are not privileged to all the knowledge of God. I do not recall branding you a heretic.

As mentioned earlier, I'm not opposed to QUANTITATIVE confusion (e.g. as to the magnitude/quantity of God's love). But we shouldn't promote QUALITATIVE confusion (e.g. logically inconsistent teachings or total gibberish about the NATURE of love).

Are you really going to argue that love being by necessity a choice is gibberish? What is your alternate theory?

Forcing God into human restraints is PRECISELY what I'm doing - and I make no bones about it. No apologies here, as it's a REQUISITE of theology if we want to avoid absolute gibberish. I'll explain why.

Perhaps I was not clear. We obviously must have terms and concepts we can comprehend as humans to learn about God. The issue I was attempting to get at is that I believe a mistake is made when We make God no more sophisticated than a common man. This leads to people making God in their image. This is a mistake.

Second example. How do you define love? Probably the same way I do. It is kindness defined as an effort to minimize suffering. This is the human definition of love.

I do not agree with your definition of love.

You're assuming that God is infinite - which seems to be precisely one of those humanly incomprehensible doctrines so problematical. Later on I'll probably launch a logical critique of infinitude.

The Bible states that God created space and time, therefore, he pre-existed time itself. The Bible indicates heaven is eternal and God is there the entire time. This means God never ceases to be. As God has no beginning and no end, He is therefore infinite.

He merely DESIRED it? Or NEEDED it? You're saying He made this kind of world just for the fun of it? And the price of all this good fun was nailing His Son to the Cross? Or was Calvary too, all part of the fun in your view?

If God is infinitely self-sufficient, why would He need our existence to have fun?

Your view is far too narrow here. I have already offered you an alternative to your two choices by advocating God’s creation out of love. Of course, we disagree on the definition of love, so even though it would seem to match well with scripture, I understand why you may find this notion less palatable.
 
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JAL

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Because I disagree.
I have a friend whose professor could logically justify infanticide. Very well. I think the professor is a nutter, but you come away realising that it's very easy to logically justify many things that we know are wrong, even if we can't logically say why they are wrong.
Logically justify infanticide? Not sure what you mean. I can't logically prove anything from scratch - I can't even prove that you exist. Here's what I CAN do. I can look at your CURRENT set of assumptions and conclusions and point out any apparent inconsistencies between the two. For example if you claim that the Father is PERFECT in love and kindness - a maximizer of them - but ascribe to Him partially unprotective behavior, it looks like a contradiction to me. Might my assessment be incorrect? Certainly. But intellectual honesty will at least admit that THERE SEEMS TO BE A PROBLEM HERE. Teachers and theologians should not write and preach with the aura of, 'We KNOW what we're doing' when all the while gaping holes SEEM to exist in their logic.

When faced with a choice between two possible doctrines, neither of which is perfectly clear, we should tend to prefer the one that seems most clear and most consistent. Otherwise, if we go with the one less clear, and so on when the third and fourth proposals arrive (etc.), we are on the slippery slope to complete gibberish. For instance, in MY theology, the goodness of God is CLEAR - at least it's significantly more clear than in the mainstream view. If we opt for a view that seems LESS clear, we are probably behaving irrationally.

The problem of evil
Problem of evil - Wikipedia
is the atheist's most insurmountable objection to theism. The atheist finds it logically impossible to reconcile a world of suffering with an infinitely benevolent, infinitely self-sufficient God. Most Christian scholars have been shrugging off this objection for 2,000 years, but I'm not sure who they think they're fooling - certainly not the atheists. I can't help but wonder (aloud) how many atheists would be more soft-hearted to the gospel if the church had unfailingly cast God in the best possible light.

So logic does not always equal truth
Am I in the wrong forum? Is this the theology forum? Or the Any Bizarre Random Opinion Will Do forum? Because I seem to be receiving quite a bit of negative feedback for appealing to both scripture and reason. I'm not sure what you've posted on other threads, but I suspect that, whenever you spot someone engaging in poorly reasoned exegesis, you are quick to point it out. But suddenly I'm at fault for doing the same?

The Bible presents many doctrines that may or may not contradict, and we do have to learn to live in that, since we have to learn to live in an imperfect world.
I consider the Bible inerrant on all major doctrines. Otherwise it wouldn't be very fruitful for eternal hope. For instance I'm not going to preach the gospel like this, "Repent and be saved - or maybe not. Hard to say, since the Bible is full of contradictions." But I'm fine with the Bible being erroneous on minor issues such as the number of people who died in a battle. In my opinion Yahweh isn't terribly concerned about such trivial errors.

In a moment I'll cite more of you statements faulting me for reasoning. First, let me clarify my position.

Epistemologically, there is only one knowledge-authority, ultimately, for both doctrine and practice, namely conscience defined as a feeling of certainty about what is right and wrong. Ideally our consience would always have 100% certainty, which is the herald of infallible prophetic revelation and still foreign to my own experience. All of us should aspire to be prophets (1Cor 14:1). But here we are, as non-prophets, and thus for the moment stuck with some uncertainty. Hence we must do what is MOST certain to us, at any given moment.

So if you think that logic is my final authority, you are incorrect. I'm a Christian because the Holy Breath convicted/convinced my conscience - He gave me a feeling of certainty - that Christ is God. (Wasn't 100% certainty, but it was enough to demand repentance if I wanted to behave in good conscience).

In areas where certainty is ESPECIALLY low, as in many theological issues, my conscience has directed me to investigate Scripture. But it counsels me to do it in GOOD CONSCIENCE, not irresponsibly. In other words, my conscience doesn't tell me, "Read the Bible and draw any random irrational conclusions you like," but rather, "Try to be as reasonable and logically consistent as possible in your handling of the written Word."

So yes, I'm open to a preacher stating, "I'm sharing a doctrine with you merely because I can't seem to shake it from my conscience. I have no logic and no Scripture to support it." Fine. He's being honest about WHERE IT CAME FROM. He's not pretending to have it on solid biblical authority/evidence or even solid logic. He's not disseminating a false sense of security as to what the Bible does, or does not, actually say.

Especially when there are things you simply don't know. Since we live in a fallen world, there are things about God we'll only know in the new heavens and new earth. Because these things don't make logical sense to us now, that does not mean they aren't logical, only that we don't possess all the relevant information.
When something doesn't make sense, we need to BE HONEST ABOUT IT. My beef is mostly with church leaders who've studied enough to be aware of gaping holes - and tons of unclarities and ambiguities - in their teaching, and yet they DELIBERATELY exude, when preaching, an aura of (false) confidence.

Secondly, when our current perspective doesn't make good logical sense, it's time to be open-minded about reform. It's time to CONSIDER A NEW PERSPECTIVE.

I don't believe, theologically speaking, that a position is wrong if it cannot be reconciled logically in every way...
Again, we need to be forthcoming TO EVERYONE about the gaping holes. AND we need to consider alternative doctrines.
... In some ways, sure, but by overlaying the law of non contradiction into theology is insisting that a philosophical method proves a doctrine as true or not. I think that's a wrong way to go about forming or affirming doctrine. The Bible presents many doctrines that may or may not contradict, and we do have to learn to live in that, since we have to learn to live in an imperfect world.
There's no excuse for being theologically sloppy and irresponsible exegetes. Let's do the best we can, let's act in good conscience, which presumably means acting in accordance with some of the admonitions that I just outlined.

Because there's too much at stake. 100 billion people have lived and died since the world began. If we get it wrong - if we miss out on some or most of the grace of God due to false doctrines misguiding our walk with God, as the Galatians seem to have done, the ultimate cost might be a LOT of (needlessly) lost souls as collateral damage.

The fact that an infinite God can come to us as an ignorant babe is perhaps logically incomprehensible, yet at the same time it is not illogical or impossible.
Logically incomprehensible? Mainstream theologian rightly admit as much - but the incarnation is only incomprehensible on mainstream assumptions.

Have you read my earlier posts? I think you did. So here's how God incarnated His (physical) Son, in my view. Incredibly simple.
(1) He extracted a portion of the divine Word (a small portion of the Son) and physically scrambled it somewhat. In a material metaphysics, this has an effect similar to scrambled brains (brain damage) - it potentially renders one IGNORANT. He molded this ignorant divine Word into a fleshy-like texture (viz. "The Word became flesh" - Jn 1:14), and then merged it into an embryo in Mary's womb. Much like He merges a human soul to an embryo for normal conceptions. (Hope I'm allowed to state this opinion in the Controversial/Unorthodox forum. But I'm afraid to actually defend it, because I don't know if Staff will delete this thread again).
(2) Didn't I say that God is irreversibly holy due to His Immune System? How then did Christ experience real temptation in the wilderness? The Immune System's job is to uphold the Godhead. It isn't stupid. It CAN make an exception, as long as the threat is only to an infinitesimally small part of the Godhead and thus perfectly innocuous to the whole.
Some things appear to be better learned relationally rather than logically. It seems illogical, for example, to turn the other cheek, until you do it and you find out why it's true experientially.
If this is your form of justification for someone being a theologically irresponsible exegete - one who opts for a seemingly UNREASONABLE doctrine even when a seemingly reasonable one is proffered - I don't find it very convincing.
 
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HatGuy

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Sorry HatGuy and aiki - gotta get back to work. But I suspect much of my last post applies to you guys as well. Might be another eight hours or so before I can come back to your posts, though.
Not really, no :D But I'll answer nonetheless.

1. You're confusing INCOMPREHENSIBLE with ILLOGICAL. They are not the same thing.

I've provided one example in my previous post. I'll repeat it here. You can justify many sinful actions logically, but that doesn't make it right. As an example, I have a friend whose professor can logically justify infanticide. The class is usually left dumbfounded as to how to counter-act his arguments, because they are logically tight. So logic does not always equal truth. Saying that infanticide is wrong is not an incomprehensible statement, even if you can't necessarily state your view logically.

I'll provide a second example. Right now, Quantum Mechanics and Relativity are incompatible with each other. They contradict / conflict. Yet, both are true mathematically (logically). Because they don't make sense together to us doesn't mean they don't actually fit together and won't make sense together to us some day. The point is to note that they just don't make sense together for us YET. The great science for astrophysicists right now is to try and figure out how to put them together.

If astrophysicists are happy to live in such a contradiction, then so am I.

Likewise, with theology, we often have two seemingly conflicting truths that don't necessarily HAVE TO conflict. It's just that we don't have all the information to fully understand them YET. There will one day be a YET, and that day might only be when Jesus comes back.

2. Christian orthodoxy always attempts to help people live in the 'tension' of the middle, the mystery of the two sides put together. That's why Orthodoxy is beautiful.

If you lose this tension, you lose what makes it beautiful, mysterious, interesting, and TRUE. You just become a dogmatist for a particular theology / philosophy that is grounded in intellectualism but actually lacks life. You've got to be careful about that. Generations from now, your theology is the next theology that refuses to be reformed.

Living in the mystery is not gibberish. It is not gibberish to say that Jesus is 100 percent man and 100 percent God. It is simply difficult to get your head around completely, but it's not that difficult to get your heart around. You can relate to God easily in this truth.

Let me put it another way. It is not IRRATIONAL to say Jesus is 100 percent God and 100 percent Man, even if saying so is not necessarily LOGICAL.

Christian Orthodoxy accepts both as true and you live in the tension, or mystery of it.

Likewise, God can be both material and immaterial (Spirit). Jesus Himself, as a man, claimed that God is spirit (see John 4:24). Yet Jesus, a man, is God. Saying God is both is neither irrational or gibberish, it is perfectly rational even if it's not always logical. This is because God can be bigger than anything we can fully grasp in our limited knowledge, experience, and so on.

This is why the Bible will seem to affirm both. It will tell us God is spirit, yet at the same time tell us that right now there is a man in heaven (which seems to be a physical place), Jesus, interceding for us. It will hint at God's glory being material (as you've point out) yet also say God is invisible (Colossians 1:15).

Let's talk about time, as it's something I find fascinating. Orthodoxy insists that God is 'timeless' (a term I don't think is necessarily helpful, and I'm not sure it's always the term used) while at the same time He certainly appears to live within our time. It will tell us that God knows the end from the beginning, or IS the end from the beginning (Alpha and Omega), yet our choices are real things and not an illusion.

About infinity. You might want to ponder the nature of love and goodness more deeply, and ask yourself this question: does love have a limit? Does goodness have a limit? Is there an end to love and goodness? Let me know what conclusion you reach.

Then, about God learning. I know about Process Theology and, while I find it fascinating from a philosophical point of view, I can't let it govern how I read my Bible. It can sometimes provide some interesting insights that I can miss, but on the whole it is simply one side of a scale that can help balance the other side (determinism).

It's true that God seems to learn on one hand (Jesus had to learn) while, on the other hand, God knows all. He doesn't have to be one or the other. He can be both. This is because God does not seem to work in a mechanical way. For all its talk of trying to get God to be more relational, Process Theology actually can make God out to be quite mechanical. It will insist God can only love in a particular way because He is limited to things like time and knowledge, but this downgrades God to having to work within certain rules that govern him, which, incidentally, makes his workings and actions of love somewhat mechanical. I can elaborate further if you wish.
 
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JAL

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aiki said:
What mainstream teaching, exactly, does this?
I suspect you haven't read the thread. I don't have time to repeat all that.
Which is what, in your estimation?
Yep. You haven't read it.

In Scripture, "Holy Spirit" is a common title/name/descriptor given to the third Person of the Trinity. Is the Bible making a mistake when it refers to him in this way? If not, why is it a mistake for Christians to follow the Bible's lead in referring to the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit?
Ditto.


But you've got it all figured out? An interesting belief coming from someone who wrote:
"As human beings of very limited knowledge, all of us are potentially susceptible to doctrinal error."
There's no contradiction here. But I suppose I could be more clear on my methodology, or perhaps should call it ideology:
(1) I believe God wants us all to be infallible prophets but I think that probably no one is currently at that level.
(2) Since we are all, therefore, fallible, we should be honest about it. For example if I were a preacher, the first thing I would want to tell my congregation is that I really DON'T know what I'm talking about. I just have opinions. See my signature. And bear in mind that it's always present.
(3) It is precisely becuase the signature is always present as a disclaimer, that it puts me at liberty to argue my points vigorously, as though I DO know what I'm talking about - the disclaimer is always there for the reader to see.

How very...postmodern of you. Not a very biblical way of thinking, however. I assume that you realize that your comments here undercut everything you write.
See comments above.

If you hold yourself to the same standard as you do these "intellectually dishonest" pastors, then all you've written in your OP is really nothing more than your opinion. We've all got opinions. Why should anyone give yours any more weight than their own? Basically, if all you've got to share is your opinion, you've said nothing more significant, really, than that you like coffee rather than tea, or that you prefer foreign-made cars over domestic ones. So? Why should anyone care? Do you see the problem with relegating everything ultimately to opinion?
No, I don't see any problem with my being honest about my fallibility, a consequence of which is that everything I say is, indeed, just my opinion. Where I DO see a problem is preachers who DO pretend to know what their talking about, who SELDOM or NEVER qualify their assertions with a disclaimer.

Seems to me that, just as you never bothered to read the thread, you didn't even bother to read my signature either.

We've all got opinions. Why should anyone give yours any more weight than their own? Basically, if all you've got to share is your opinion, you've said nothing more significant, really, than that you like coffee rather than tea, or that you prefer foreign-made cars over domestic ones. So? Why should anyone care?
This seems to be hyperbole. Just because something is an opinion doesn't make it of zero epistemological value. For example, since we're fallible beings, every conclusion that we draw in math and science is susceptible to error. Does that mean those opinions have no value?

In my view, if I offer REASONS for my opinions, and I can't find a more well-reasoned position even on this forum, then my opinions DO have some value. At the very least, it furnishes others on this forum a fresh context for reevaluating and reexamining their own opinions, in light of my arguments.

Imagine a jury who only heard the side of the prosecution, but not the defense. Or vice versa. I mean, if you live your life only hearing one side of the story (mainstream theology), isn't it possible you missed out on something? I tend to think so - just my opinion!
 
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HatGuy

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Seems we posted at the same time :D

But intellectual honesty will at least admit that THERE SEEMS TO BE A PROBLEM HERE. Teachers and theologians should not write and preach with the aura of, 'We KNOW what we're doing' when all the while gaping holes SEEM to exist in their logic.
You're reading / listening to the wrong people, perhaps. I know what you mean, but from the decent theologians / teachers out there, I haven't found this. (Admittedly, you won't find me listening or reading most mainstream preachers, so I guess that might be why we could miss each other on this post.)

is the atheist's most insurmountable objection to theism. The atheist finds it logically impossible to reconcile a world of suffering with an infinitely benevolent, infinitely self-sufficient God. Most Christian scholars have been shrugging off this objection for 2,000 years, but I'm not sure who they think they're fooling - certainly not the atheists. I can't help but wonder (aloud) how many atheists would be more soft-hearted to the gospel if the church had unfailingly cast God in the best possible light.
Firstly, I think most Christian scholars have not shrugged off the objection. When I look at the whole of Orthodoxy over history, this objection has been discussed again and again and again, and there are great scholars today who attempt to answer it in unique ways.

Am I in the wrong forum? Is this the theology forum? Or the Any Bizarre Random Opinion Will Do forum? Because I seem to be receiving quite a bit of negative feedback for appealing to both scripture and reason. I'm not sure what you've posted on other threads, but I suspect that, whenever you spot someone engaging in poorly reasoned exegesis, you are quick to point it out. But suddenly I'm at fault for doing the same?
No, I think you're jumping to conclusions as to what I'm doing. I'm not attacking you or saying you're at fault, I'm simply trying to critique your approach in a way so that I can know it better, find what we agree on, and clarify my position around philosophy coming second to theology.

I consider the Bible inerrant on all major doctrines. Otherwise it wouldn't be very fruitful for eternal hope. For instance I'm not going to preach the gospel like this, "Repent and be saved - or maybe not. Hard to say, since the Bible is full of contradictions."
Agreed - on the same page :D
So if you think that logic is my final authority, you are incorrect. I'm a Christian because the Holy Breath convicted/convinced my conscience - He gave me a feeling of certainty - that Christ is God. (Wasn't 100% certainty, but it was enough to demand repentance if I wanted to behave in good conscience).
Well, then we're on the same page here :D.

In areas where certainty is ESPECIALLY low, as in many theological issues, my conscience has directed me to investigate Scripture. But it counsels me to do it in GOOD CONSCIENCE, not irresponsibly. In other words, my conscience doesn't tell me, "Read the Bible and draw any random irrational conclusions you like," but rather, "Try to be as reasonable and logically consistent as possible in your handling of the written Word."
Me too - on the same page.

There's no excuse for being theologically sloppy and irresponsible exegetes. Let's do the best we can, let's act in good conscience, which presumably means acting in accordance with some of the admonitions that I just outlined.
I agree.

If this is your form of justification for someone being a theologically irresponsible exegete - one who opts for a seemingly UNREASONABLE doctrine even when a seemingly reasonable one is proffered - I don't find it very convincing.
No, you've misunderstood. I just want us to not get dogmatic by making doctrine only logical and throwing away its mysterious elements.
 
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JAL

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Not really, no :D But I'll answer nonetheless.

1. You're confusing INCOMPREHENSIBLE with ILLOGICAL. They are not the same thing...
They very often ARE the same. Try to picture a square circle. Incomprehensible, right? Precisely because it's illogical. But regardless of that, an incomprehensible 'doctrine' is NOT a doctrine. It's gibberish.

...I've provided one example in my previous post. I'll repeat it here. You can justify many sinful actions logically, but that doesn't make it right. As an example, I have a friend whose professor can logically justify infanticide. The class is usually left dumbfounded as to how to counter-act his arguments, because they are logically tight. So logic does not always equal truth. Saying that infanticide is wrong is not an incomprehensible statement, even if you can't necessarily state your view logically.
I think I responded to this statement already.

I'll provide a second example. Right now, Quantum Mechanics and Relativity are incompatible with each other. They contradict / conflict. Yet, both are true mathematically (logically). Because they don't make sense together to us doesn't mean they don't actually fit together and won't make sense together to us some day. The point is to note that they just don't make sense together for us YET. The great science for astrophysicists right now is to try and figure out how to put them together.

If astrophysicists are happy to live in such a contradiction, then so am I.
When a 100 billion souls are at stake, the ONLY fully acceptable standard for ANY Christian should be infallibility. And when THAT goal isn't currently being met, we should at least try to find a system as free of contradictions AS POSSIBLE.

Take the example you just gave. Presumably these scientists don't WANT to persist in a contradiction. They apparently are finding themselves CAUGHT in a contradiction (actually not really a surprise to me since Special Relativity sounds like illogical nonsense to me despite it's proven usefulness in APPLIED science).

When a theologian finds himself caught in an apparent contradiction, and yet is unwilling to consider alternative theories, it's a problem. It's a problem because 100 billion souls are at stake.

The primary goal of science is APPLIED science. Truth is secondary, and pursued primarily for fear that Applied science can fail or falter if we don't ascertain truth. Truth isn't a NECESSITY. Gibberish is perfectly valuable in science, long as it 'works'. For example, suppose I draw the (silly) conclusion that water boils because the stovetop burner draws in demons who heat up the water. Pretty much gibberish, but is it useless? Not at all. Applying this theory produces the desired result, every time I want to cook some eggs.

Religion is very different. Religion cries out for truth, because so much is at stake.


Likewise, with theology, we often have two seemingly conflicting truths that don't necessarily HAVE TO conflict. It's just that we don't have all the information to fully understand them YET. There will one day be a YET, and that day might only be when Jesus comes back.
Let's be HONEST and FORTHCOMING about it, if or when it happens.

Again, if we're CAUGHT (i.e. TRAPPED) in a contradiction, that is one matter. But if we're EMBRACING contradiction, if we're refusing to entertain SOLUTIONS (alternative theology), it's a problem. It's theologically irresponsible - and potentially treacherous to 100 billion souls.


2. Christian orthodoxy always attempts to help people live in the 'tension' of the middle, the mystery of the two sides put together. That's why Orthodoxy is beautiful.
Where's the tension? Where's the mystery? I'm not currently aware of any major theological questions - certainly not any pressing ones - that don't have a simple answer such as the ones I've proposed.

What theological issue do you find so mysterious? I just gave everyone a simple theory of the incarnation. Care for a simple definition of the Trinity? Glad to help if you want it.


If you lose this tension, you lose what makes it beautiful, mysterious, interesting, and TRUE. You just become a dogmatist for a particular theology / philosophy that is grounded in intellectualism but actually lacks life. You've got to be careful about that. Generations from now, your theology is the next theology that refuses to be reformed.
Lacks 'life' - by life you evidently mean 'lacking in contradictions.' Correct. That's what I prefer.


Living in the mystery is not gibberish. It is not gibberish to say that Jesus is 100 percent man and 100 percent God. It is simply difficult to get your head around completely, but it's not that difficult to get your heart around. You can relate to God easily in this truth.
Christ became 100% man - an ignorant babe anatomically, physiologically, intellectually, psychologically, and emotionally resembling, and after the fashion of, Adam himself, with all the same weaknesses, all the same temptibility (etc) - just as my own theory of the Incarnation affirmed.

Let me put it another way. It is not IRRATIONAL to say Jesus is 100 percent God and 100 percent Man, even if saying so is not necessarily LOGICAL.
I'm not sure whether I'm allowed to comment much on this.

Christian Orthodoxy accepts both as true and you live in the tension, or mystery of it.
Ok.


Likewise, God can be both material and immaterial (Spirit).


Jesus Himself, as a man, claimed that God is spirit (see John 4:24).
LOL. There's no clear evidence for 'spirit' as the proper translation of pneuma. The correct translation is breath/wind, often depicted as being exhaled from God's mouth. Thus, "The words that I have spoken to you, they are Wind/Breath, and they are Life" (Jn 6:63). As usual, mainstream theologians, overlooking the obvious breath/wind context, mistranslate it as, "The words that I have spoken to you, they are Spirit and they are Life". Again, "You are clean because of the Word that I have SPOKEN to you" (Jn 15:3). They make the same mistake at Jn 3:8. Here's the correct translation: "The Wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the [Wind]" (not born of the 'Spirit'). It's an OBVIOUS (physical) wind-and-breath context, not an (immaterial) spirit-context. Unfortunately 2,000 years of tradition often blind us to the obvious. Jesus "breathed on them, and said, "Receive the Holy [Breath]" (Jn 20:22). Ok so since John, as a writer, REGULARLY refers to the Third Person as BREATH, what do you suppose he's doing at the verse you cited? The choice is clear.


Yet Jesus, a man, is God. Saying God is both is neither irrational or gibberish, it is perfectly rational even if it's not always logical. This is because God can be bigger than anything we can fully grasp in our limited knowledge, experience, and so on.

This is why the Bible will seem to affirm both. It will tell us God is spirit, yet at the same time tell us that right now there is a man in heaven (which seems to be a physical place), Jesus, interceding for us. It will hint at God's glory being material (as you've point out) yet also say God is invisible (Colossians 1:15).
Material and invisible are not opposites. If light is reflecting off me, but I shade it from you, you won't see my body. It will be invisible to you. That's precisely how God hid His face from Moses - He used His own hand to cover His face, shading Moses from the unbearable Light:

"Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.” (Ex 33:21-23).

As always, the Bible consistently documents physical metaphysics.

Let's talk about time, as it's something I find fascinating. Orthodoxy insists that God is 'timeless' (a term I don't think is necessarily helpful, and I'm not sure it's always the term used) while at the same time He certainly appears to live within our time. It will tell us that God knows the end from the beginning, or IS the end from the beginning (Alpha and Omega), yet our choices are real things and not an illusion.
Not sure the point here.

About infinity. You might want to ponder the nature of love and goodness more deeply, and ask yourself this question: does love have a limit? Does goodness have a limit? Is there an end to love and goodness? Let me know what conclusion you reach.
I promised to discuss infinity. Trying to find the time.

Then, about God learning. I know about Process Theology and, while I find it fascinating from a philosophical point of view, I can't let it govern how I read my Bible. It can sometimes provide some interesting insights that I can miss, but on the whole it is simply one side of a scale that can help balance the other side (determinism).

It's true that God seems to learn on one hand (Jesus had to learn) while, on the other hand, God knows all. He doesn't have to be one or the other. He can be both. This is because God does not seem to work in a mechanical way. For all its talk of trying to get God to be more relational, Process Theology actually can make God out to be quite mechanical. It will insist God can only love in a particular way because He is limited to things like time and knowledge, but this downgrades God to having to work within certain rules that govern him, which, incidentally, makes his workings and actions of love somewhat mechanical. I can elaborate further if you wish.
Can't comment much on the 2-natures theory, admitted by many theologians to be humanly incomprehensible. I provided you my own theory of the Incarnation, which is pretty simple to understand.
 
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JAL

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HatGuy said:
Likewise, God can be both material and immaterial (Spirit).
I missed this one. That's not a reasonable theory - certainly it's not the MOST reasonable one among the options.

It's like saying, "Yesterday I sat on my chair because it was hard and firm. Today it's an immaterial substance, so I can't sit down." Sounds like absolute gibberish to me. If that's your preference, not much I can do about it. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.
 
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JAL

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I’m not sure what you are getting at here. The thrust of my post is precisely that we cannot know it all, as we are not privileged to all the knowledge of God. I do not recall branding you a heretic.
I wasn't referring to you specifically. I was referring to various Christian leaders who have conducted themselves that way, and many still do so today. Visualize, for example, "Yes the hypostatic union is humanly incomprehensible, but YOU'RE A HERETIC IF YOU DON'T ACCEPT IT AS GOSPEL." Even today, a considerable number of mainstream leaders behave that way. It's a problem.

It's even more of a problem, in my view, when you offer them doctrines that CAN be comprehended, but they are too entrenched in traditional dogma to seriously consider an alternative point of view.


Are you really going to argue that love being by necessity a choice is gibberish? What is your alternate theory?
I have no idea what you're saying here. At some point I think we began talking past each other. Sorry about that.

Perhaps I was not clear. We obviously must have terms and concepts we can comprehend as humans to learn about God. The issue I was attempting to get at is that I believe a mistake is made when We make God no more sophisticated than a common man. This leads to people making God in their image. This is a mistake.
Ok but I'm not sure I would know where to draw the line. So I just try to be as reasonable as possible, and to avoid any inconsistencies in my theology.

I do not agree with your definition of love.
Well of course you wouldn't want to, if it leads to contradictions surfaced by a theology such as mine, but conspicuously you neglected to provide an alternative definition of love. Don't just state your objection - argue it. That's what a theology forum is for. Otherwise you're not being very helpful/educational.

The Bible states that God created space and time, therefore, he pre-existed time itself. The Bible indicates heaven is eternal and God is there the entire time. This means God never ceases to be.
These are not humanly comprehensible assertions. Therefore, it's not doctrine.
I realize that you might could point to a few verses that seem to point in that general direction, but ultimately you're speaking gibberish.

I'll say it again. I don't care if you've got a million verses 'supporting' your position, it's still theologically worthless if it's either logically inconsistent and/or humanly incomprehensible.

MY theology doesn't suffer such issues. It's very simple to understand.

As God has no beginning and no end, He is therefore infinite.
I think you're confusing 'everlasting' with 'infinitude'. I would call myself everlasting, but I'm very finite in all respects.

Your view is far too narrow here. I have already offered you an alternative to your two choices by advocating God’s creation out of love. Of course, we disagree on the definition of love, so even though it would seem to match well with scripture, I understand why you may find this notion less palatable.
No, I already responded earlier on this thread to someone who proposed 'alternatives'. The burden is on YOU to prove that you have an alternative, because my two options APPEAR to be EXHAUSTIVE (meaning all other 'alternatives' actually fall into one of those two categories). So I'll make the same challenge to you that I did to him (unsurprisingly, he neglected to respond). Fill in option 3:
(1) God made us because He NEEDED us.
(2) God did NOT need us (in which case, He did it for the fun of it).
(3) ???? How can there be a third option.

I don't really think there can be a third option but, to play devil's advocate, earlier in the thread I pretended one (perhaps the same idea that you are proposing). I said, let's suppose that, in God's mind, heaven is so great a reward that creating us was an act of generosity.

I then rebutted this theory on simple terms. If God is infinite, how much generosity does He have? An infinite amount of course. Therefore, it must be His commitment, after this world is done, to CONTINUE creating worlds like this one (ad infinitum).

The second rebuttal is that, it's simply NOT CONVINCING to claim that a world capable of condemning men to hell is an act of SUPREME love/generosity on God's part. If that's generosity, then I ASSUME you are hoping that, in heaven, He will generously afford you many fresh opportunities to condemn yourself to hell.

Again, it is simply NOT supreme generosity to create a world capable of nailing His son to the cross. Not sure how you treat YOUR kids, but I don't think they'd consider it very generous, if it could be avoided.

Sorry, but supreme generosity DOES minimize suffering.
 
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JAL

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Firstly, I think most Christian scholars have not shrugged off the objection. When I look at the whole of Orthodoxy over history, this objection has been discussed again and again and again, and there are great scholars today who attempt to answer it in unique ways.
Yes the problem of evil has been discussed at length by theologians, but generally they merely pretend to have fully satisfactory solutions. Ultimately they insinuate that God made this world merely because He WANTED to, not because He NEEDED to, but at some point they pretend that such is unproblematical, which attitude essentially DENIES and IGNORES the problem of evil instead of ACKNOWLEDGING and ADDRESSING IT.

Even if it should turn out that God did indeed make this world merely for the fun of it, they should not pretend this to be a 100% fully satisfying, undisturbing, palatable, unproblematical state of affairs.

Atheists who complain about the problem of evil have a legitimate case here, and we are not doing them justice by glossing over it in a most cavalier manner.
 
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HatGuy

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LOL. There's no clear evidence for 'spirit' as the proper translation of pneuma. The correct translation is breath/wind, often depicted as being exhaled from God's mouth. Thus, "The words that I have spoken to you, they are Wind/Breath, and they are Life" (Jn 6:63). As usual, mainstream theologians, overlooking the obvious breath/wind context, mistranslate it as, "The words that I have spoken to you, they are Spirit and they are Life". Again, "You are clean because of the Word that I have SPOKEN to you" (Jn 15:3). They make the same mistake at Jn 3:8. Here's the correct translation: "The Wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the [Wind]" (not born of the 'Spirit'). It's an OBVIOUS (physical) wind-and-breath context, not an (immaterial) spirit-context. Unfortunately 2,000 years of tradition often blind us to the obvious. Jesus "breathed on them, and said, "Receive the Holy [Breath]" (Jn 20:22). Ok so since John, as a writer, REGULARLY refers to the Third Person as BREATH, what do you suppose he's doing at the verse you cited? The choice is clear.
Are you saying the Holy Spirit is oxygen?
 
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Ok, please let me know the point of this post.

Are you simply trying to say that preachers / teachers / theologians should be open to alternative theories that might conflict with tradition?

Is that the point of this post?

Or are you wanting to discuss some of these alternative theories themselves?
 
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JAL

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Oxygen is dead matter shaped out of (dead) atoms. God is a shape-shifter, He can assume any physical shape desired. He CAN shape Himself into atoms, or He can assume a form that looks and behaves similarly to ordinary wind/breath, but because it is a Living Wind/Breath, it need not behave PRECISELY like ordinary oxygen - for example it need not be subject to gravity, because every divine Particle is self-controlled. In the Bible He appears in pillars of Cloud, Fire, Smoke, Living Water (etc). Israel drank Living Water from the Rock in the desert (1Cor 10) to avoid dehydration. But we need not assume it was an exact replica of H-2-O (water). In the OT the divine Fire that came down from heaven physically burned up sacrifices placed by priests on the altars - but we need not assume that it's constitution was PRECISELY that of ordinary fire.

But if you light a match in a dark room, the fire lights up the room. Likewise, time and again Scripture tells us that the pillar of Cloud became a pillar of Fire by night, to illuminate the path for Israel's journey's. It's all physical.
 
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It means both. It's only confusing because English has different words to be more precise, but in Greek it's interchangeable. There is not one word that fits directly with every English word. In the case of pneuma, it can also be used in an intangible sense. Like in Romans 8 -- " For ye have not received the spirit [pneuma] of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit [pneuma] of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

Obviously it's not "wind of adoption". That's just clumsy. :p
 
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Ok, please let me know the point of this post.

Are you simply trying to say that preachers / teachers / theologians should be open to alternative theories that might conflict with tradition?

Is that the point of this post?

Or are you wanting to discuss some of these alternative theories themselves?
Both. I HAVE been discussing some of the alternatives already.

However, I'm not advocating dissent with the Nicene Creed. Which is not to say that the Nicene Creed is infallible (again, anyone can err), but I personally don't BELIEVE it to be erroneous. Based on the apparent influence of the Holy Breath in my own life (the seemingly God-given, convicting feelings of certainty that I mentioned earlier), I'm pretty sure that I would never be able to disapprove of the Nicene Creed in good conscience.

Doesn't mean it's right but I'm far too convinced about it to question it. But that still doesn't exempt me from seeking 100% certainty about it (i.e. prophetic revelation).
 
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