Are there different definitions of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

[SBC]

Of course those who are Saved can not leave God!

Part of one becoming Saved is the man effecting his FREE WILL to Give God the Authority to Take And Keep the mans Life forever With God.

How silly to say a man makes a choice of his own volition then say man can then change his freewill choice AS IF a mans choices then have the power to supersede God Power and make God a liar. Pfft!

Man exercises his own free will to give God control over the mans spiritual everlasting life.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[Halbhh]

Of course those who are Saved can not leave God!

Part of one becoming Saved is the man effecting his FREE WILL to Give God the Authority to Take And Keep the mans Life forever With God.

How silly to say a man makes a choice of his own volition then say man can then change his freewill choice AS IF a mans choices then have the power to supersede God Power and make God a liar. Pfft!

Man exercises his own free will to give God control over the mans spiritual everlasting life.

God Bless,
SBC

Even though it's normal for people on the internet to entirely talk past each other, not hearing what anyone else is saying at all....

Still, I did read your post through.

We can all learn from each other. If we are humble, as we should be.

I wonder if it would be good or bad for me to say -- the gospels have more than one paragraph. I think it would be bad, since it might possibly sound pokey. But the stakes are high, and so it's time to pray the Lord's Prayer I think.

 

[1stcenturylady]

So, will Jesus be in error when He tells them He never knew them?

No, but we are if just calling Jesus Lord is going to save us as the OSAS crowd does. What does verse 21 say?

21 `Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.

Does that mean to "Sin boldly" as Martin Luther said? He also said, "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." Is THAT doing the will of the Father?

Don't be deceived into believing that grace is covering all your present and future sins. If you are still sinning, Jesus NEVER knew you.

 

[Linktogunner]

Don't be deceived into believing that grace is covering all your present and future sins. If you are still sinning, Jesus NEVER knew you.

Quick question.. personally (if you don't mind answering, you don't have to feel pressured) was there a time in the past since you've been saved that you have sinned?

 

[Halbhh]

No, but we are if just calling Jesus Lord is going to save us as the OSAS crowd does. What does verse 21 say?

21 `Not every one who is saying to me Lord, lord, shall come into the reign of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens.

Does that mean to "Sin boldly" as Martin Luther said? He also said, "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day." Is THAT doing the will of the Father?

Don't be deceived into believing that grace is covering all your present and future sins. If you are still sinning, Jesus NEVER knew you.

'Is that doing the will of the Father?' -- No.

At best, one could understand Luther to talking to a certain time and place, a certain audience, trying to get them to understand something. And doing a poor job of it, in this case.

He who endures until the end of what?

Every one that is born alive and of the earth is everyone who has his own life which is his own Blood in his body.

Everyone who endures to the end IS everyone Who believes in their heart until their own life's ending, which all born out of the earth, are already sentenced that their blood life SHALL end.

An individual mans enduring to his end IS a man believing until his Blood life ends.

David was disobedient to the law.

David was never with Belief And Then without belief in God.

David endured to his end of his own Blood life.

Yes David was a man after Gods own heart which is to say;
David thirsted to know Gods Word, Truth an Understanding- an excellent example that all should be after the same.

God Bless,
SBC

Psalms 51 is so wonderful, that utter repentance David did.

We know from 1 John 1 that if we confess, He is just and faithful to forgive!

Hallelujah.

So, we should be sure to tell people confession isn't an optional extra, but an essential key thing we should do. We must confess our sins sincerely to God, even in our hearts (our hidden, real thoughts), in real contrition.

As Christ told us, our faith will not endure -- our faith will fail -- if we don't put His words to us into practice. It's impossible to me to read Matthew 7:24-27 as anything but an instruction about real choices we make, as we live here, ongoing. In other words, we have to choose at times, and we have help, but it's possible to make the wrong choice, be unfaithful, and continue in that. Paul warns about that too. As best I understand though, even one refusing to follow Him for years could still turn and repent and be forgiven. It's not too late.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Quick question.. personally (if you don't mind answering, you don't have to feel pressured) was there a time in the past since you've been saved that you have sinned?

Not willful sin in 40 years. Have I sinned unintentionally, of course. But the Holy Spirit inside me keeps teaching me. Notice in Numbers 15 from verse 22 on there was a sacrifice for UNINTENTIONAL SIN. But there was no sacrifice for willful/presumptuous sin - they killed them. So now look at 1 John 1:7. Notice that person in walking in the light/walking in the Spirit and the blood of Jesus is cleansing him of the sins he is committing. Ask yourself what kind of sins would you be committing if the Spirit was leading you? Murder? Adultery? God forbid!

 

[lastofall]

[for me anyway] any invented phrase beyond that which is written is not a doctrine as is that which is written. for me anyway I would agree with that which is written, and not think nor speak above that which is written; therefore do i have "the hope of salvation", and nothing more to be added to it, lest I would begin to exaggerate and over-estimate beyond that which is written.

 

[1stcenturylady]

'Is that doing the will of the Father?' -- No.

At best, one could understand Luther to talking to a certain time and place, a certain audience, trying to get them to understand something. And doing a poor job of it, in this case.


Psalms 51 is so wonderful, that utter repentance David did.

We know from 1 John 1 that if we confess, He is just and faithful to forgive!

Hallelujah.

So, we should be sure to tell people confession isn't an optional extra, but an essential key thing we should do. We must confess our sins sincerely to God, even in our hearts (our hidden, real thoughts), in real contrition.

As Christ told us, our faith will not endure -- our faith will fail -- if we don't put His words to us into practice. It's impossible to me to read Matthew 7:24-27 as anything but an instruction about real choices we make, as we live here, ongoing. In other words, we have to choose at times, and we have help, but it's possible to make the wrong choice, be unfaithful, and continue in that. Paul warns about that too. As best I understand though, even one refusing to follow Him for years could still turn and repent and be forgiven. It's not too late.

Verse nine which you quoted is when you become a Christian and receive the Holy Spirit so then you are verse 7. Verse 6,8 and 10 is still a person walking in darkness. They are not Christians.

 

[Halbhh]

[for me anyway] any invented phrase beyond that which is written is not a doctrine as is that which is written. for me anyway I would agree with that which is written, and not think nor speak above that which is written; therefore do i have "the hope of salvation", and nothing more to be added to it, lest I would begin to exaggerate and over-estimate beyond that which is written.

Yes, Paul's wording in Philippians:

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. (Chapter 2)

...

10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." (Chapter 3)

 

[Halbhh]

Verse nine which you quoted is when you become a Christian and receive the Holy Spirit so then you are verse 7. Verse 6,8 and 10 is still a person walking in darkness. They are not Christians.

Please see post #89 also, for more. As we walk, following Christ, sometimes we do stumble. Peter.

Peter is an example. Peter stumbled. In Galatians chapter 2 Paul even wrote that Peter "stood condemned" at one point! Imagine that!

But we see that later in time, in Acts, Peter has turned from his sin of refusing to associate with the uncircumcised (a very serious wrong, in view of Christ's wording about welcoming "even the least of these" in Matthew chapter 25). After us real believers stumble -- you, me, any of us -- we can confess and repent, and return to following Christ.

 

[Oldmantook]

Believe in Jesus and be adopted into the family of God by Christ's blood. That is all God requires for salvation and that is the gospel.

If only belief is required for salvation what do you make of Heb 5:9?

 

[LDane]

How would you in your opinion define "once saved, always saved"? Is it true or is it false doctrine? Would "wilful sinning" have any connection to this said doctrine"? How also about works or obedience? What roles if any would that doctrine play in how we will end up in eternity?

Hi Lik3, thanks for posting this. It would be best that with that phrase, we will look into the bible. It is indeed true that once saved, always saved. John 3:16 is a good summary of it already. There is this greatest invitation to all "whoever" believes, regardless if they did good or not, shall have eternal life. Life here means zoe life. There are 2 greek uses of life: Bio and Zoe. In this verse, it uses Zoe, the same word used in John 10:10 where Jesus said, I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. That's His promise, no conditions. With regards to willful sinning, we need to categorize points about the word "saved". Saved from what? Salvation can be categorized in 3 phases:

Phase 1 is Saved from the Penalty of sin. Jesus paid it all already when He said, it is finished or tetestai or paid in full before he breath his last breath. Jesus has no debt, yet he paid what must be paid - all of our sins and the wage is death. Hence, His death paid it all. Theologians call this Justification where anyone who believes is justified. No more any tarnish of sin because the debt is paid. Hence, the believer then is called Just.

Phase 2 is Saved from the Power of Sin.This now will answer about your question of willful sinning. Everyday from the moment we wake-up til we go to bed, we are in constant battle. Why, still because of Sin that is inherent in us. From the time that God justified us (that moment that we believe in Jesus and the work He had done on the cross) He never never never had taken His eyes from us. We are the apple of His eyes, and daily moment by moment He saves us. Meaning, His love endures forever. His faithfulness is new every morning. Because of His mercy we are not consumed. Sin is no longer an issue to God. The issue is, would we enjoy the abundant life here on earth as He promised if we disobey? I doubt so. Are we yielded to Him? This is the most difficult phase because it requires our daily submission to the leading of the Holy Spirit. I cannot deny that I willfully disobeyed Him. Does that mean that the death of Jesus on the cross was forfeited. I know that there is struggle deep inside to abide with my willful lust or to abide in the Power of God. I have the freedom to choose. Now, if we obey - expect blessings like joy, peace, love, etc. The opposite, if we disobey, expect chaos. What is amazing with our God is that, out from any chaos, still something good will come out of it in that experience. Of course, we already miss a lot of blessings. Blessings in time and Blessings in eternity. In time - could be productivity, wealth, wisdom, frienships, etc. many.. In eternity - silver, gold, precious stones, crowns - which we will present to our greatest Lover, the Groom, and no else but Christ Jesus and we the believers the bride. The opposite: wood, hay, straw. Fire will test it. This phase in our life is called Sanctification, being set apart daily, purified daily, polished daily, processed daily, that we will come out so precious in His sight. That is, if we obey. If not, well heaven will still have celebration for the fast forwarded life of a saint to eternity. The unfinished purpose. I wonder how would that be before Christ. The bible is clear, there will be judgement before Christ Jesus. again, sin is not an issue to God but it is to us. I pray that i finish well.

Phase 3, the most awaited time of the Christian. Saved from the Presence of Sin, where the corruptible body will be changed to incorruptible. There is no pressure of sin anymore. No more sorrows or deep frustrations, sickness, anger, bitterness and all of the baggages in life. So free from all of this world's pulling down effect. The day I am waiting for. That blessed hope.

Hence, in Christ, once saved will always be saved, regardless.

 

[Halbhh]

Hi Lik3, thanks for posting this. It would be best that with that phrase, we will look into the bible. It is indeed true that once saved, always saved. John 3:16 is a good summary of it already. There is this greatest invitation to all "whoever" believes, regardless if they did good or not, shall have eternal life. Life here means zoe life. There are 2 greek uses of life: Bio and Zoe. In this verse, it uses Zoe, the same word used in John 10:10 where Jesus said, I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. That's His promise, no conditions. With regards to willful sinning, we need to categorize points about the word "saved". Saved from what? Salvation can be categorized in 3 phases:

Phase 1 is Saved from the Penalty of sin. Jesus paid it all already when He said, it is finished or tetestai or paid in full before he breath his last breath. Jesus has no debt, yet he paid what must be paid - all of our sins and the wage is death. Hence, His death paid it all. Theologians call this Justification where anyone who believes is justified. No more any tarnish of sin because the debt is paid. Hence, the believer then is called Just.

Phase 2 is Saved from the Power of Sin.This now will answer about your question of willful sinning. Everyday from the moment we wake-up til we go to bed, we are in constant battle. Why, still because of Sin that is inherent in us. From the time that God justified us (that moment that we believe in Jesus and the work He had done on the cross) He never never never had taken His eyes from us. We are the apple of His eyes, and daily moment by moment He saves us. Meaning, His love endures forever. His faithfulness is new every morning. Because of His mercy we are not consumed. Sin is no longer an issue to God. The issue is, would we enjoy the abundant life here on earth as He promised if we disobey? I doubt so. Are we yielded to Him? This is the most difficult phase because it requires our daily submission to the leading of the Holy Spirit. I cannot deny that I willfully disobeyed Him. Does that mean that the death of Jesus on the cross was forfeited. I know that there is struggle deep inside to abide with my willful lust or to abide in the Power of God. I have the freedom to choose. Now, if we obey - expect blessings like joy, peace, love, etc. The opposite, if we disobey, expect chaos. What is amazing with our God is that, out from any chaos, still something good will come out of it in that experience. Of course, we already miss a lot of blessings. Blessings in time and Blessings in eternity. In time - could be productivity, wealth, wisdom, frienships, etc. many.. In eternity - silver, gold, precious stones, crowns - which we will present to our greatest Lover, the Groom, and no else but Christ Jesus and we the believers the bride. The opposite: wood, hay, straw. Fire will test it. This phase in our life is called Sanctification, being set apart daily, purified daily, polished daily, processed daily, that we will come out so precious in His sight. That is, if we obey. If not, well heaven will still have celebration for the fast forwarded life of a saint to eternity. The unfinished purpose. I wonder how would that be before Christ. The bible is clear, there will be judgement before Christ Jesus. again, sin is not an issue to God but it is to us. I pray that i finish well.

Phase 3, the most awaited time of the Christian. Saved from the Presence of Sin, where the corruptible body will be changed to incorruptible. There is no pressure of sin anymore. No more sorrows or deep frustrations, sickness, anger, bitterness and all of the baggages in life. So free from all of this world's pulling down effect. The day I am waiting for. That blessed hope.

Hence, in Christ, once saved will always be saved, regardless.

It makes me wonder -- are we then forced (even against our will) to repent after we do really serious sin? I mean is that inevitable? -- God would do whatever it takes to force us to turn and return? Or is there instead a real choice we might make?
(And there is at least one other option some believe, the idea of purgatory, I remember.)

Please see post #90 re the serious sin of Peter, where Peter "stood condemned" but later in time Peter has reversed course.

 

[LDane]

It makes me wonder -- are we then forced (even against our will) to repent after we do really serious sin? I mean is that inevitable? -- God would do whatever it takes to force us to turn and return? Or is there instead a real choice we might make?
(And there is at least one other option some believe, the idea of purgatory, I remember.)

Please see post #90 re the serious sin of Peter, where Peter "stood condemned" but later in time Peter has reversed course.

It makes me wonder -- are we then forced (even against our will) to repent after we do really serious sin? I mean is that inevitable? -- God would do whatever it takes to force us to turn and return? Or is there instead a real choice we might make?
(And there is at least one other option some believe, the idea of purgatory, I remember.)

Please see post #90 re the serious sin of Peter, where Peter "stood condemned" but later in time Peter has reversed course.

Thanks for this post. No, we are never forced. Because if we are, then why would God allow Peter in the first place to sin. When God created man, it was a package: Mentality, Emotions, Conscience, Self-consciousness, and the power to decide and that is Volition. God is a respecter of freedom. Each choice we make there are consequences. In our sane mind we do evaluate, we weigh things, we think, we consider what is good for us and what is not. Naturally, that is our nature. God is absolutely good. He never pushed this to man. Rather, he allowed man to choose, gave an option. To choose His choices or ours. So, at the end of the day, it is still us to choose. But He remains faithful regardless. Now if we choose Him, He is absolutely good, expect good. If we will not choose Him, expect that it is not good. In my own considerations, I want good of course. Have I failed. Yes! many times. Should I choose to be a failure for the rest of my life. I pray not.

 

[Halbhh]

Thanks for this post. No, we are never forced. Because if we are, then why would God allow Peter in the first place to sin. When God created man, it was a package: Mentality, Emotions, Conscience, Self-consciousness, and the power to decide and that is Volition. God is a respecter of freedom. Each choice we make there are consequences. In our sane mind we do evaluate, we weigh things, we think, we consider what is good for us and what is not. Naturally, that is our nature. God is absolutely good. He never pushed this to man. Rather, he allowed man to choose, gave an option. To choose His choices or ours. So, at the end of the day, it is still us to choose. But He remains faithful regardless. Now if we choose Him, He is absolutely good, expect good. If we will not choose Him, expect that it is not good. In my own considerations, I want good of course. Have I failed. Yes! many times. Should I choose to be a failure for the rest of my life. I pray not.

He is "just and faithful to forgive!". Hallelujah.

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

We need only confess our sins truly, sincerely -- thus we are acting under the light -- and by His Grace and Mercy, we are forgiven.

 

[LDane]

He is "just and faithful to forgive!". Hallelujah.

5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

We need only confess our sins truly, sincerely -- thus we are acting under the light -- and by His Grace and Mercy, we are forgiven.

Amen to that! <3

 

[LDane]

Amen to that! <3

And I am so blessed and grateful that God new my sinfulness that He wrote I John 1:9. Without it, I wonder how would I face my failures. hehe Thanks for this!

 

[Oldmantook]

This phase in our life is called Sanctification, being set apart daily, purified daily, polished daily, processed daily, that we will come out so precious in His sight. That is, if we obey. If not, well heaven will still have celebration for the fast forwarded life of a saint to eternity.

If we don't obey we still have celebration? How do you reconcile Rom 8:13 with your view?

 

[LostMarbels]

Yes he was (is?) ..... Did David SIN WILLFULLY every day, day after day ? as a man after God's own heart, or was he repentant and stopped committing adultery ? Remember no adulterers are in heaven - no one with an impure heart is in heaven, according to Scripture.

If only He hadn't also said, he who endures to the end .....

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Ok my friend, now you speak of the end of days and the persecution of the church by the anti-christ. Some will deny Christ to keep their lives, home's, comfort, and the lives of others. Denying Christ if the unforgivable sin, and the only sin that can lose you your salvation.

Notice that the proponents of osas all believe they have no free will left to leave Jesus.

Naturally no one in the Shepherd's Care 'ought' to want to leave Him,

but His Word repeatedly gives warning about this very thing.

So even just one warning about the penalty of leaving Him, one believer who tasted of the heavenlies, leaving Him, disproves osas hands down.


Something so simple, mankind has complicated beyond recognition of the truth, to deceive others further or to placate their own selves, or some other reason..... (maybe just being deceived is enough?) ...

OSAS is not construed to make one believe they can continue in sin. That is not my belief at all. The sins I have committed are not having pushed my kid sister off the couch. In my some 30 year walk with the lord I have been threw hell on this earth strugeling with sexual addiction, bisexuality, drugs, alcoholism, and variouse other spiritual malities tantamount to outright rebellion. Jesus never once left my side. I have struggled with sins that have taken over a decade for me to learn how to deal with them.

Do you know how many times I literally cried, sobbing, screaming at my God: "Why won't you take this from me?!!! Why can't I just be normal?!!!"

The answer: "In your weakness you find my strength. My grace is sufficient."

God still, to this day, has not rid me of all my sinful desires. Instead he has equipped me to confront them. Do you think there is a magic wand that God waves over you and there are no more trials?

The ones that 'lose' their salvation are the ones that say to God " you know what? Flip you! I don't want to go through all this, I just want to do what I find pleasing!'. They can become lost because they did not continue on. But to the christian that strives to be free from their sin and continues, that individual is a child of God even in his sin. OSAS is only for those who have considered the cost, and have chosen to continue with God. No matter how hard you try you cannot be perfect, that does not give you the excuse to not try, but you cannot be perfect as Christ is perfect.

The simple truth many do not want to hear is that if you were saved you would not justify your sin or your actions. You would continue with God to change you life. And yes, they are not with us because they were never of us. If you love your God, and have decide to die, to give your life for him, you will never lose your salvation.

 

[Halbhh]

The simple truth many do not want to hear is that if you were saved you would not justify your sin or your actions.

This is such a powerful preaching to hear. It's reminding me of Matthew 5:23-24. Even if we think we are not-so-bad, even then, still, we still have an instruction to reconcile! It's one of the harder things to do, in a marriage at certain times. At times we really very much need the aid we can have such as from praying the Lord's Prayer and/or more specific asking for aid from above, and I find that when I pray for this help, it makes a huge difference. Even just in all my relationships and interactions, even in an average day, the Lord's Prayer makes the day better, even overflowing with love-one-another!, and does so over and over. Oh! I'm so thankful for this help!