Are there different definitions of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

Linktogunner · Dec 10, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Can you receive Jesus as your ticket to heaven without repenting of your sin?

I think that INITIAL repentance is accepting who christ is and what he does for all who beleive.. after that repentance is always an on going process in the life of the christian

CGL1023 · Dec 10, 2017

Lik3 said:
How would you in your opinion define "once saved, always saved"? Is it true or is it false doctrine? Would "wilful sinning" have any connection to this said doctrine"? How also about works or obedience? What roles if any would that doctrine play in how we will end up in eternity?

Billions of pages have been used to argue both sides of the issue, OSAS. I can't help thinking that when the Bible exclusivly provides the arguments for both sides, the issue cannot be resolved.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 10, 2017

CGL1023 said:
Billions of pages have been used to argue both sides of the issue, OSAS. I can't help thinking that when the Bible exclusivly provides the arguments for both sides, the issue cannot be resolved.

Right.
People still sin.
The penalty for sin is still death.
So people still die in their sin. (not everyone, but most of the world)

Their free will is not taken away from them in this life time,
so they can freely chose what to do, right or wrong,
even if it is deadly for them, or for others in their power to bring harm to.

Tree of Life · Dec 10, 2017

Lik3 said:
How would you in your opinion define "once saved, always saved"? Is it true or is it false doctrine? Would "wilful sinning" have any connection to this said doctrine"? How also about works or obedience? What roles if any would that doctrine play in how we will end up in eternity?

OSAS or (the term I prefer) the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is the idea that Jesus ultimately succeeds in saving the people that he intends to save. Because Jesus succeeds, his elect people persevere in their faith throughout their entire lives - though this faith may be at some times weak and at other times strong, they may be buffeted, beset, and even temporarily defeated by sin. Yet, in the end, faith has the victory because Jesus has the victory. For this reason no one can fall away from salvation.

It's a true and biblical doctrine.

Those who are truly saved willfully sin all the time. Yet they cannot remain in sin. Faith will ultimately get the victory and Jesus will lead them to true repentance.

Those who truly believe work this faith out in love and obedience. True faith brings about obedience to the commands of God.

The doctrine is meant to encourage us in the midst of the many trials and temptations that we endure in this life.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 10, 2017

Tree of Life said:
It's a true and biblical doctrine.

Those who are truly saved willfully sin all the time.

I wonder how many Scriptures this violates ?
(one is all that is needed, but I would guess at least 20 or 30)
Perhaps someone has a short list, or even a long list all ready ready ?

Tree of Life · Dec 10, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
I wonder how many Scriptures this violates ?
(one is all that is needed, but I would guess at least 20 or 30)
Perhaps someone has a short list, or even a long list all ready ready ?

Are you suggesting that those who are saved never willfully sin against the Lord?

What about King David's adultery and murder? What about Peter's denial of Christ?

ladodgers6 · Dec 10, 2017

Lik3 said:
How would you in your opinion define "once saved, always saved"? Is it true or is it false doctrine? Would "wilful sinning" have any connection to this said doctrine"? How also about works or obedience? What roles if any would that doctrine play in how we will end up in eternity?

Yes, I do believe they are caricatures of this Doctrine. Its not, once you are saved, you can continue to live in sin. This Doctrine is not a license to sin. But the contrary, we uphold the Law, as Paul says in Romans. But on the flip side we are not saved by our works. We are saved another's works; namely Christ Jesus.

Here is the Golden Chain of Salvation in Romans 8: 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Its God who saves sinners. Not sinners who save themselves.

aiki · Dec 10, 2017

Lik3 said:
How would you in your opinion define "once saved, always saved"?

As the biblical doctrine upon which every believer ought to rest their relationship with God.

Lik3 said:
Is it true or is it false doctrine?

I can't speak for every version of the doctrine of eternal security that might be floating around, but the one to which I hold is, I am convinced, entirely biblical and true.

Lik3 said:
Would "wilful sinning" have any connection to this said doctrine"?

Maybe. Not sure in what way you mean, though... The doctrine itself does not encourage "willful sinning."

Lik3 said:
How also about works or obedience?

They aren't neglected by the doctrine of eternal security (or OSAS, if you like). But rather than obedience being motivated primarily by fear and thus by Self, obedience to God's commands within the doctrine of eternal security to which I hold, emphasizes the primacy of the First and Great Commandment (Matt. 22:34-38) as a motive.

Lik3 said:
What roles if any would that doctrine play in how we will end up in eternity?

Don't really understand what this question is getting at...

Osas: God Saves Us And He Keeps Us. | Christian Forums

Eternally Secure In Christ | Christian Forums

1stcenturylady · Dec 10, 2017

CodyFaith said:
What does repenting of sin mean to you?

If someone knows they need forgiveness and seeks Jesus, this is not a work. This is not something they "do". Nothing we "do" for God prior to putting our faith in Jesus pleases Him. Our "do's" for God are filthy rags before faith.

Repentance is turning away from the sin so you don't commit it again. What do you think repentance means?

Blade · Dec 10, 2017

Hey Lik3, not going to add to what you asked. Simple for me is this. Jesus is REAL. God.. the Father talked about this before Jesus "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh"

See when you believed John 3:16 Rom 10:9-10.. EVERYTHING was made new. You felt nothing. But over time you found things you use to like to do.. you don't any more. Yet.. you still want to sin. Its no longer I that sin but sin that is in me. See you ask about SINNING. What so many do not understand is.. they know you get a NEW SPIRIT this is written. Old things are pasted away all things become new. Now.. THINK.. we read.. that which is born of God..does not sin. HELLO I sin all the time.. YOUR SPIRIT NEVER SINS! THAT is what was BORN from above..or born again. This is the WAR. Jesus.. they keep sleeping.. the spirit is willing the FLESH is weak.

The FLESH has not been changed YET. You as the word says.. YOU right now are in RIGHT STANDING WITH GOD aka righteousness. Not by how good or bad you are. But because you believe in Jesus. THAT is your righteousness. It and ALL THINGS.. are Him. ALL GOOD..we can do think.. its HIM in us.. at least I give Him all the glory.

As for losing salvation? Who would think this? No really? Something that cost so much.. is this easy to loose? One day.. Jesus will set foot on this world. At that time He will gather the nations of the world at that time as it is written. He will split them. He says to one "I NEVER NEW YOU". That does not mean.. they were saved.. loved Jesus and fell away. Jesus can not lie. He NEVER knew them. They were never saved. See you confess JESUS to JUST ONE person.. HE confessed you to ALL THE ANGELS in heaven. HELLO HE KNOWS YOU! He can NEVER say.. I never knew you. WE say things like that.. He is just.. EVERY word every letter.. means something. We will answer for EVERY idol word. WORD mean something. Look what CHRISTIANS say just in this forum.. anyway

God does not judge anyone for one moment in time. We do.. He sees the end from the start. He knows the heart. The out side can say all kind of things.. yet the heart never meant it. So.. can you lose something or is it always there? Never cared or will go run with that. I am saved.. born from above.. A NEW spirit was made.. how in the WORLD would I UNDO that?

1stcenturylady · Dec 10, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
I wonder how many Scriptures this violates ?
(one is all that is needed, but I would guess at least 20 or 30)
Perhaps someone has a short list, or even a long list all ready ready ?

I know where you are going with this and I agree, but to be fair, you didn't finish his quote, sort of like the News when it comes to President Trump.

He actually said: "Those who are truly saved willfully sin all the time. Yet they cannot remain in sin. Faith will ultimately get the victory and Jesus will lead them to true repentance."

Brokenhill · Dec 10, 2017

CodyFaith said:
...

Generally speaking you are greatly mistaken on what scripture teaches.

1. The Holy Spirit is granted to those who not only have faith in Jesus but also who have been baptized into water.
Acts 2:38 NASB
"Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Keyword and. Faith and confessing Christ are found elsewhere, but repentance and baptism are ESSENTIAL to receive the HS.

2. You can willingly FORFEIT your salvation. So OSAS is literally a devil's lie.

Jesus Himself teaches this:
Matthew 7:21-23 NASB
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. [22] Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' [23] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

If they cast out demons in Jesus name, were they not saved? And yet their continual willful sin kept then out of heaven in the end.

Galatians 5:4 NASB
"You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

Hebrews 6:4-6 NASB
"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, [5] and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [6] and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

You don't "lose" your salvation as if the devil can just steal you away against your will, HOWEVER God let's us CHOOSE to not be with Him...God is too living to force us into His presence against your will.

Sketcher · Dec 11, 2017

NothingIsImpossible said:
The only accurate view on OSAS is that its false. For example lets say Hitler was a christian. Then did what he did. Would he still go to heaven? No. Proof enough you can lose it. The only counter argument people try to make is "Well that person wasn't saved to begin with!". Which doesn't make much sense. So lets say someone really well known like Billy Graham decided one day to go on a shoot spree killing children. Would this mean he was never saved to begin with? Of course not. All it means is he now lost his salvation.

I don't see how these hypothetical examples constitute proofs; people can just quote 1 John 2:19 at both of them to refute them. Do you have actual real-life examples of Christians who bore real spiritual fruit who turned to extreme wickedness, and Scripture passages to back this this teaching up? Also, what is the line at which a not-yet-fully-sanctified believer crosses back from life into death again? Where is it drawn in Scripture?

1stcenturylady · Dec 11, 2017

Sketcher said:
I don't see how these hypothetical examples constitute proofs; people can just quote 1 John 2:19 at both of them to refute them. Do you have actual real-life examples of Christians who bore real spiritual fruit who turned to extreme wickedness, and Scripture passages to back this this teaching up? Also, what is the line at which a not-yet-fully-sanctified believer crosses back from life into death again? Where is it drawn in Scripture?

I think Matthew 7 has already been quoted in this thread. These people had the Holy Spirit. They were casting out demons, they had gifts of the Spirit as they were prophesying in Jesus name, and signs and wonders were following them. But because of their continuing in sin, Jesus said, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness.

They could have started out just fine, but as their ministries grew, perhaps they got greedy, manipulating for money like some of the TV evangelists. Paul says that if a man claims to be a brother, but commits extortion, not even to have a meal with that person. They have brought shame on the name of Jesus, and trampled on His blood and the Spirit of Grace.

Therefore, if this person had the Holy Spirit he was born again. He was saved. But at the end he wasn't.

1stcenturylady · Dec 11, 2017

1stcenturylady said:
Matthew 7 has already been quoted in this thread. These people had the Holy Spirit. They were casting out demons, they had gifts of the Spirit as they were prophesying in Jesus name, and signs and wonders were following them. But because of their continuing in sin, Jesus said, I never knew you, you workers of lawlessness.

They could have started out just fine, but as their ministries grew, perhaps they got greedy, manipulating for money like some of the TV evangelists. Paul says that if a man claims to be a brother, but commits extortion, not even to have a meal with that person. They have brought shame on the name of Jesus, and trampled on His blood and the Spirit of Grace.

Therefore, if this person had the Holy Spirit he was born again. He was saved. But at the end he wasn't.

Radagast · Dec 11, 2017

Lik3 said:
How would you in your opinion define "once saved, always saved"? Is it true or is it false doctrine? Would "wilful sinning" have any connection to this said doctrine"?

The "always saved" refers to going to heaven, but the "once saved" means different things to different people.

Calvinists would interpret it as meaning all genuine Christians go to heaven. I think this is true.

LostMarbels · Dec 11, 2017

Lik3 said:
How would you in your opinion define "once saved, always saved"?

Once a child is adopted it is always a child of that individual. Even if it brings shame or condemnation to the family, it is still their child. The father will chastise that child. Life may even be hard for that child due to the father's admonishment, and disapproval of the child's actions, but it is still his child.

Lik3 said:
Is it true or is it false doctrine?

I believe it to be true.

Lik3 said:
Would "wilful sinning" have any connection to this said doctrine"?

All sin is willful. There is no accidental sin. Sin is rebellion. Don't give yourself that 'out'. When you sin, you do so on purpose. You know what you're about to do. You know it is wrong, and you do it anyways knowing it is wrong. We push away God, justify it and make all manner of excuses to allow ourselves to sin. We expend serious effort to engage in theses acts. Create motives, lies for cover, and even stories to clear our tracks. If you ever sit down and think about how much effort goes into sinning, it is a real ordeal to undertake. We even lie to our friends and loved ones, because we do not want them to find out what we have done. We have shame, and embarrassment for our sin, and yet chose to do it again.

Temptation is a crutch we blame, and a scapegoat we slay for our own actions. It is written there hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man, but God is faithful; who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able, but will with the temptation also make a way to escape; that ye may be able to bear it.

Don't cop out. Take God's escape.

Lik3 said:
How also about works or obedience?

This speaks to honoring God. Pleasing him, and making him proud of you.

Babies need diapers, teens rebel, and new adults on their own have no idea what is laid before them. All of them lack the knowledge, the wisdom, and the understanding that comes with maturity. A father no longer has to chastise a person that is no longer their child. That being said there's no use for scripture that tells us to not despise god's chastisement if we are no longer his child after sinning.

Even in James where we are told to continue in the perfect law of liberty. And to be a doer not a hearer only. We first must hear. We first need the understanding of what it is we have learned, and then in maturity, with the wisdom of God we can live pleasingly to God. Honoring him with our lives and actions. This doesn't happen over night any more than a newborn becomes a grown man in a day.

As new babes, We need protection from our own ignorance. We do not know it is bad to put a fork in a electric outlet. We do not know these brightly colored pieces of candy Mommy uses to wash clothes are deadly poison. We will put em right in our mouth. As a child we learn our families rules, and ideals. We are taught that the world is not always safe, fair, and can be cruel. We learn friendship, compassion, and love. We begin the understanding we need for adulthood. As teens, well forget it... we already know everything. Our bodies don't fit our minds. We do not understand our own emotions or insecurities, but our parents definitely have no clue. As young adults we are finally free. Were on our own for the first time and find new independence brings new responsibilities along with it. We quickly understand why our father did what he did and along with that comes respect, or we rebel. Go our own way....

Now mind you, it is impossible to please God without faith and works. However before coming to Christ you have done neither. No matter how good you were before coming to christ you cannot please God without first having faith in his son. So, even as we find it in scripture, God loved us before we loved him.

Lik3 said:
What roles if any would that doctrine play in how we will end up in eternity?

Only one thing at all means anything at all to me. I confess Jesus Christ. I confess that Jesus is the word of God come in the flesh that dwelt amongst men. Jesus is my salvation. I can neither save, nor condem one individual; including my own self. Only Jesus can. That being said, my understanding of Jesus is not as important as Jesus's revelations of himself. That comes with maturity, and effort.

Apologetic_Warrior · Dec 11, 2017

Lik3 said:
How would you in your opinion define "once saved, always saved"? Is it true or is it false doctrine? Would "wilful sinning" have any connection to this said doctrine"? How also about works or obedience? What roles if any would that doctrine play in how we will end up in eternity?

Well, I do not believe God saves a person, they fall away, they choose to be re-saved, they fall away, they choose to be re-saved, and so on until their last breath. Why would God save a person, knowing they will fall away, knowing their final state? Apostates are never saved in the first place, they may have a religious appearance about them, they are common in Churches, enjoying the religion game, and all while damaging those who are saved, confusing the flock, scattering and sending some away from the flock, until the good shepherd brings them back into the fold, out of darkness and back into the light so to speak, but their status with the good shepherd changes not, their cleanness is only the result of the shepherd cleaning them.

LostMarbels · Dec 11, 2017

yeshuaslavejeff said:
I wonder how many Scriptures this violates ?
(one is all that is needed, but I would guess at least 20 or 30)
Perhaps someone has a short list, or even a long list all ready ready ?

And yet... David was a man after God's own heart.

NothingIsImpossible · Dec 11, 2017

1 John 2:
Some of the verses quoted are just that.... verses. Its the biggest thing I learned in bible studies. That often christians will repeat a single verse and claim it to mean something. But they ignore that one verse can be used out of context. You need the verses before and after. The paragraph maybe, to see what the verse is applying too. Hence its called cherry picking to use a single verse (in many cases).

A good example of this is "judging". Probably one of the most common verse people will use is "Do not judge" (..etc). And alone that verse sounds like no one can judge. THerefor it fits their need so that they feel no one can judge them. But they often leave out the fact the bible talks more about this subject and in fact actually says we can use correction and reproof on each other (only to a certain degree, then we leave it up to God). So to say "God says not to judge!" is false doctrine. We do not technically judge each other, but we can teach each other.

Hence using a single verse to claim salvation is never lost is dangerous. I've seen many great christians over my time on earth end up changing who they are very late in life. Great teachers who started having strange views and teachings in their 60s or even 70s. Sure, maybe its mental issues because of their age. But whatever the case good christians can change. And they can lose their salvation.

Now, do I know if they actually lost it? Of course not. Only God knows what those people say or do after they turn from Him. Maybe they come back. Maybe they don't.

One other thing I would mention is some talk of a verse 1 John 2:19 (They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us) out of context. Especially when it comes to the issue of sin. Many people will say you cannot belong to God if you sin. Because you sin willingly. But is that the truth? Well I don't believe its 100% accurate. Because sometimes you sin on accident. Maybe a moment of weakness. Lets say a driver cuts you off on the freeway and you swerve and end up slamming into a wall and scream a swear word. Did you do so on purpose? No.

And how can anyone here claim to be saved if they believe you cannot sin and be saved? Because anyone here who claims they do not sin would be a liar. We screw up often. Its even in the bible. We will always be imperfect. Now not saying of course this an excuse to screw up. We must always work towards being as perfect/sin free as we can. Dangerous are those who teach they are free from messing up as a christian. For not only is it false doctrine, but they suffer from pride and boastfulness. The fall from that high up is a bad fall. God will humble them.

Me? I have no problem admitting trying to live like Jesus is hard. Growing up in a house with a angry, rage filled mom I learned bad habits. Its taken time and Gods strength and help to change my life back around so much. But I am not perfect. There are times when I am on my knees in despair over how I let God down because I did something or gave into something I knew I shouldn't have. Do I believe I am saved? Yes. I also believe if I went back to my lifestyle from a decade ago, I'd maybe lose that salvation again. I don't want that.

Are there different definitions of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

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