Are there different definitions of the "once saved, always saved" doctrine?

G.O.A.T.

Reprobates? Do not Believe In God.

Fall from Faith? Started believing then stopped.

I started believing and the committed myself to God in belief in Him forever.

Are there reprobates? Yes
Are there people who fall from faith? Yes

Did either of them commit their life to God?
No.

So? What do they, old man,have to do with a new man? Nothing!

They are not Saved or born of God.
Not news, they are the same old men, not FREED From Sin, thus they are still IN Sin.

They are the sick, the poor in spirit, the needy, the lost, Because they Are the same old man.

And what do you teach such a man?
Come to Jesus ? Trust Him? Believe Him?
Be Forgiven for your Disbelief?
Become forever Alive In Christ?
Become a new man?

But about that saving part....uh...
Really you haven't become a new man, you are still the same old man who continues to Sin....so go to God and confess His Power to Free you from Sin Failed, so you need to get another washing in Christs Blood?

Is that about how it works according to your understanding?

Because that is the message I am getting from you.

God Bless,
SBC

~Cassia~ said:

You don't believe in the process of sanctifcation? and that the Spirit can be quenched? Repeatedly doing so results results in a conscience that is seared 1 Timothy 4:2

Click to expand...

Thank you for you last response.

Perhaps you could now tell me what made you question IF I believe in the process for one to become sanctified?

And my view on the quenching of the Spirit?

God Bless,
SBC

JIMINZ said:

.
What are they supposed to do in order for them to be accepted in the Beloved?.......Set their hair on fire?

Click to expand...

way more than "I prayed that one prayer years ago so I'm good. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm heading of to the bar to get my wig busted up on some hard liquor and hopefully I'll get lucky tonight.

SBC said:

Thank you for you last response.

Perhaps you could now tell me what made you question IF I believe in the process for one to become sanctified?

And my view on the quenching of the Spirit?

God Bless,
SBC

Click to expand...

Go to the posts to you where I have pointed anything out and you should be able to figger it out. I'm not interested in your longwinded arguments that talk past each other.

~Cassia~ said:

Go to the posts to you where I have pointed anything out and you should be able to figger it out. I'm not interested in your longwinded arguments that talk past each other.

Click to expand...

First of all I am not arguing but stating what I believe and Why.

Yes it is insensitive of me to be precise and take up 5 minutes of an others persons time.

I have precisely spoken on how a man becomes sanctified and not deviated.

You posed an accusatory question to me.

Why? Who knows why you say what you say.

Maybe I should go ask my neighbor or a stranger... but I thought it best to ask you since it came from you.

Since you think it a good idea, to not explain you own reasoning for your accusatory question, but that I should go thumb through your past posts and guess what you mean,

I'll not waste my time and note you say things but don't know why.

God Bless
SBC

THE W said:

way more than "I prayed that one prayer years ago so I'm good. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm heading of to the bar to get my wig busted up on some hard liquor and hopefully I'll get lucky tonight.

Click to expand...

Hope you don't drink too much that your ability of being the bar's lucky guy doesn't become the bar's joke.

God Bless,
SBC

SBC said:

You committed to staying in sin?

You commited to being committed to you own power so you could continue in sin or try not to?

I didn't.
I committed my life in belief To God Forever.
I committed my life To His Power to forever Keep me Free from Sin.

God Bless
SBC

Click to expand...

......SBC I stated the similiarites we have earlier

1. We both believe it's possible to not sin....the only difference is you believe it's a requirement



I'm not one of those grace covers any sins we do abusers...I believe one must be trying their hardest to resist sin. But becuase of verses like 1 john 2:1 I belive that if one sins "the verse says if one sins as if it can happen", they have the oppurtunity to repent and keep going.


But under your theology if one sins.....they are straight up no longer saved....and I disagree with that theology.

SBC said:

Jesus Is the Truth and does not change.
John 14:6
Heb 13:8

His forgiveness was given me- nothing I can do can Change what He has given me.
John 10: 28
John 10: 29

Never having to go ask again?

No. I cannot give you a scripture that is not in Scripture.

Yes I have already given you Scripture
1 John 3:9

That a man Born OF God Cannot Sin.

If you trusted to Believe the Word of God you would not be asking me to provide you with Scriptures For "what you call future sins"
Because there Are No Future Sins possible for a son of God!

God Bless,
SBC

Click to expand...

SO if one has to go ask again...then doesn't that mean one cna still sin?

And none of those scriptures address these

2 corithians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


Comment: One can depart the faith and even reach reprobate status.... reprobate means... failing to pass....unapproved....counterfeit




1 Timothy 4:1King JamesVersion (KJV)
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Here's a great example here...one that was once saved following Paul but he left Demas.

2 Timothy 4:10King James Version (KJV)
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.



And again that 1 john 3:9 verse is refering to continnious sin....becuase look at the verse before it.


1 John 3:8King James Version (KJV)
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

and commiteth means to practice


1 John 3:8English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.



So either the bible contradicts itself or you're wrong... and you're wrong.

when commit sin is mentioned in the NT it's referring to the practice of sin....just as john 3:8 is referring to continuous sin.


there's a reason 1 john 2:1 says "if we sin" Paul isn't suggesting that everyone who's born again will not sin based off that alone.

THE W said:

way more than "I prayed that one prayer years ago so I'm good. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm heading of to the bar to get my wig busted up on some hard liquor and hopefully I'll get lucky tonight.

Click to expand...

.
That isn't the way Christians act.
When you got saved, did you seek out ways you could sin?

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

......SBC I stated the similiarites we have earlier

Click to expand...

In some respects I agree with that assessment.

1. We both believe it's possible to not sin....

Click to expand...

Agree.

the only difference is you believe it's a requirement

Disagree. I believe it is a Fact that a man who becomes born of God, is a son of God, and Can Not sin.

I'm not one of those grace covers any sins we do abusers...I believe one must be trying their hardest to resist sin.

Click to expand...

I believe Gods Forgiveness completely forgives and covers the Whole of my old man, body then that body becomes dead crucified.

And my corrupt soul, which becomes Restored.

And my old corrupt natural Spirit that becomes born again by Gods Seed.

And that the power of the Spirit of God dwells within me KEEPING the Whole of me Changed As God Changed it to being anew.

You seem to be advocating something went wrong and that....some part or the Whole of you can flip back and become...
Back into your Old man body, your old corrupt soul or your old natural Spirit.

What Scripture teaches you that a man born of God can do that?

But becuase of verses like 1 john 2:1 I belive that if one sins "the verse says if one sins as if it can happen", they have the oppurtunity to repent and keep going.

Click to expand...

That is handy to know IF you are following and believing and then Doubt or Deny God, that you can repent and get back on track to Again believing.

And we have examples of the disciples, Peter for example denying Jesus....
Then getting back on track and following again.

So does that apply to a man born of God?
No it doesn't .

But under your theology if one sins.....they are straight up no longer saved....and I disagree with that theology.

Click to expand...

That's funny.
I don't agree with that theology either, and have never said I did.

I don't believe a man born of God can Sin and have plainly said so. I have further stated a Saved man Can Not lose his Salvation.

It woul be best for you to use my spoken words instead of speaking for me.

Be Straight up....

Do you believe a man born of God Can Sin?

Either he can or can not- which is it?

God Bless
SBC

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

SO if one has to go ask again...then doesn't that mean one cna still sin?

And none of those scriptures address these

2 corithians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


Comment: One can depart the faith and even reach reprobate status.... reprobate means... failing to pass....unapproved....counterfeit




1 Timothy 4:1King JamesVersion (KJV)
4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Here's a great example here...one that was once saved following Paul but he left Demas.

2 Timothy 4:10King James Version (KJV)
10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.



And again that 1 john 3:9 verse is refering to continnious sin....becuase look at the verse before it.


1 John 3:8King James Version (KJV)
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

and commiteth means to practice


1 John 3:8English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.



So either the bible contradicts itself or you're wrong... and you're wrong.

when commit sin is mentioned in the NT it's referring to the practice of sin....just as john 3:8 is referring to continuous sin.


there's a reason 1 john 2:1 says "if we sin" Paul isn't suggesting that everyone who's born again will not sin based off that alone.

Click to expand...

What do you think Sin is ?

God Bless
SBC

Jason0047 said:

Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Click to expand...

Neither 1 Samuel 16:14 nor 1 Samuel 31:4 say anything at all about a person losing their salvation; which is, of course, to be expected since the atonement had not yet been accomplished and so being born-again was not possible for OT believers. Whatever relationship they had to God, it was not as born-again "new creatures in Christ."

It's also worth noting, I think, that the Spirit of God came upon people repeatedly in the OT. Samson, for instance, had the Spirit of the Lord come upon him several times. But if the Spirit came upon Samson again and again, it must have left him again and again, too. Why? If it had left Samson because Samson had unsaved himself, why did the Spirit return to him, typically without any repentance or request for help on Samson's part? Samson quite defies the idea that the Spirit of the Lord coming upon someone in the OT meant they were born again. Balaam, too, is very problematic for such a contention.

Ezekiel 18:24 says nothing at all about being born-again and then being un-born. It simply states the relationship between sin and its wages.

Hebrews 3:12-14 says nothing about losing salvation. It warns about the effect of unbelief on a person's interaction with God. It is reading into the passage to think that "departing from the living God" means "loss of salvation." I can depart from, say, my own father without losing my son-father relationship to him; I can depart from my place of employment without losing my job; I can depart from my home without losing possession of it; I can depart also from God without losing my place in His family (see the parable of the Prodigal).

Hebrews 4:11 says that believers should labor to enter into God's rest lest any of them fall as the unbelieving Israelites in the OT did. No mention of salvation here, nor of its loss. One must read into the verse a saved-and-lost perspective for it is not there naturally. At most, one could contend for the notion that "falling" refers to failing to enter into the spiritual Promised Land God has for all believers in Christ. But does this equate to loss of salvation? Only if you force such a notion into the verse. Many genuinely saved people remain very infantile in their faith and so never enjoy the "land of milk and honey" that is theirs in Christ. They do not, by faith, enter into what is theirs as adopted sons and daughters of God and so remain perennially in a spiritual wilderness.

Those Israelites who doubted God at the borders of the Promised Land never ceased to be Israelites. Even when they were forbidden entrance into the land of Canaan because of their unbelief, they remained the Chosen People of God. So, too, the Christian believer who struggles to believe. Doubt no more destroys the relationship of a child of God to his Heavenly Father than it destroyed the relationship of the Israelites to their God.

Hebrews 6:4-9 and 10:26:30 as well as 2 Peter 2:20-22 require more expansive a treatment than I want to offer here. Instead, I'll refer you to:

Eternally Secure In Christ | Christian Forums

In a nutshell, the link shows that a saved-and-lost perspective is by no means mandated in these passages.

Hebrews 12:15 says nothing of lost salvation. Again, you're reading such a thing into the verse. All the verse remarks on is the consequence of allowing bitterness to develop within oneself. That's it.

1 Timothy 1:18-20 says nothing about losing salvation. Once again, this is being read into the passage, not drawn out of it. Paul actually says that he is expecting that the two "shipwrecked" Christians (Alexander and Hymenaeus) will learn, not that they could lose their salvation, but not to blaspheme. He is intending to teach them, not cast them out apostates.

I may get to the rest of your cited verses later, but so far none of them have helped your case any. This is no surprise to me, of course, since Scripture plainly teaches that we are "accepted in the Beloved" who is Christ and only on this basis is anyone ever accepted by God.

JIMINZ said:

.
That isn't the way Christians act.

Click to expand...

correct, which is why alter calls are dangerous because they give people false assurance and is why OSAS is misunderstood.

SBC said:

What do you think Sin is ?

God Bless
SBC

Click to expand...

anything that goes against God. fornication, murder, lying, stealing, stuff like that.

I'm not one of those however that believe we sin just as we breath...if that's what you're thinking. WE are similiar at least in that we believe it's harder to sin then what people realize. Both of our views are above the norm or mainstream world religion stuff...just yours more so then mine. I believe you can go long periods of time without sinning and eventually the rest of your life once you hit a certian age and spiritual age or spiritual maturity ...whether that's at 50...40...60..70..80 whatever. Even at that stage/age I still believe it's possible for one to sin though just based off what I notice from men of God at an older age spiritually/physically they tend to not sin at all really.

But yeah sin is anything that goes against righteousness and all of them are specifically listed in scripture such as adultery or fornication.


I guess now that I think about it we both kind of agree that one can achieve this spiritual stage where they aren't sinning. We just disagree on the fact that some can sin again/actually backslide.

SBC said:

In some respects I agree with that assessment.



Agree.

Click to expand...

k i understand your position now I got the wrong idea about it I still disagree but yeah

THE W said:

correct, which is why alter calls are dangerous because they give people false assurance and is why OSAS is misunderstood.

Click to expand...

.
Then your example was way to extreme, especially if you knew that is not the way Christians act.
Do you understand OSAS?

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:

I’m waiting on your scripture man... clearly me and you have a logical perspective but one of us is using scripture. I want scripture for forever being forgiven and never having to go before God again to repent or seek forgiveness. The lord’s prayer even has seeking forgiveness...

Click to expand...

.
How about this, if a Believer is Dead to Sin, how then does a Believer Sin?

Both Paul and Peter are in agreement, "We Are Dead to Sin."

Romans 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

SeventyOne said:

Ohh, a logic puzzle. I'm gonna go with less than 50.

But I still don't know what this has to do with the topic.

Click to expand...

.
Well actually, we also have to account for the possibility of at most 25 of those Christians being Tares, so the tally could vary some, I would say plus, minus 35

JacksBratt said:

All humans sin. There is no way around it. Having the salvation of Jesus Christ does not stop you and cannot stop you from sinning.

Tell me one person, from John Hagee to Billy Graham, to Chuck Swindol to Mother Teresa that did not sin in their walk with Christ.

Tell me one person who should or could claim that they sin no more.

It matters not if it is willful or unconscious or accidental... In Gods eyes we have all sinned and come short.

Telling people that have just found their savior, that if they ever sin again.... their not saved..... is Satan's deceit.

Other wise we, all of us, would have to keep renewing our salvation each week.

It is good, acceptable and expected to continually repent from and ask forgiveness for our sins... but it is not to regain our salvation.... only to regain the connection with Christ.

Click to expand...

.
How about this, if a Believer is Dead to Sin, how then does a Believer Sin?

Both Paul and Peter are in agreement, "We Are Dead to Sin."

Romans 6:2
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Romans 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Brokenhill said:

God allows us to give up the gift of salvation. God does not force us to be saved. Or else we wouldn't have free will and that would contradict His whole plan.

Click to expand...

.
The Free Will of man cannot be proven.