Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?

[ToBeLoved]

Mercy is not for people who want to remain unchanged and in their sins (as if they are living out their old life). Mercy is for those who truly want to love God and follow His good ways. Mercy is not for someone who tell us that we should follow the good book but yet they themselves do not do what it actually says (Thereby making them hypocritical). Even if a believer lived a holy life does not mean they can be cavalier about their salvation and think they are hot stuff in regards to their standing with God. God cares about what we do NOW and in the moment of every day. It is a continual walk with God. A person can go from being holy to living unholy. A person can go from being holy to just committing one really bad sin right before they die. Anyone who does unrighteousness will not be rewarded by God or have access to the Kingdom when they die. It does not matter if they sinned a lot or sinned a little. God's grace is for those who seek to be truly born again. Not just in name only but in how their life is transformed.
...

Jason, if it wasn't for mercy, God's mercy all of us would be in hell. You cannot give the mercy you so freely accept. I think Jesus Himself would call you a hyp**te.

He would do a mild, mild Matthew 23

 

[ToBeLoved]

Peace be with you.

Judging by the content of your post, I don't think I'll be missing much so that would be appreciated. I'm not here to sprinkle you with flowers like Angels do. Thank you.

God bless you.

No, it's the way you treated others. I read it and I don't like it.

God Bless you too

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How is this an answer to his question?

First, did you not say you were going to take a break from CF for a while?

Second, what question from Razare are you talking about? This one?

"Had you considered Isaac Newton, the father of science was a Christian? " ~ Razare​

What does that have to do with anything?

Are you or are you not?

Am I what? What are you talking about?


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Salvation can never be lost Jason. You are putting Jesus dying for man's sin for salvation in the same sentence as someone loosing their salvation.

Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (in the sense of like how one would misplace one's car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God by refusing to take heed of the conviction of the Spirit to repent of their sin). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
• Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)
• Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)
• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)

You also must know Jason that there will be rewards in heaven given by God to those who have been faithful. Why are you now saying that there is no reason for Judgement?

I am saying in Razare's view there is no reason for the Judgment.

But be not deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
For whatsoever ye sow ye shall reap. For...

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).

Not sure you caught what it said above. But it says, that Jesus will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM (any who profess Jesus Christ) and gather all who do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

God's Word says every thing will be judged, good as well as bad.

Yes, at the Judgment Seat of Christ, Jesus will say to certain professing believers that depart from me ye that work iniquity, I never knew you (See Matthew 7).

Many faithful saints will be judged very good and faithful by God. Receivng many crowns and rewards.

The 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. This is because it was Jesus who was doing the good work within them.


..

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, if it wasn't for mercy, God's mercy all of us would be in hell. You cannot give the mercy you so freely accept. I think Jesus Himself would call you a hyp**te.

He would do a mild, mild Matthew 23

Really? And you know my life how? Or do you just assume that nobody can do all of what is commanded of them in the New Testament? Is not holiness the standard for believers in God's Word? Did not Jesus say, be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect? Did not Jesus tell two people to, "sin no more."?

Side Note:

Oh, and it is against forum rules to attack others by insulting them.
Anyways, may God's love shine upon you.
And please be well.

...

 

[FireDragon76]

That sounds very semi-pelagian. Get in by grace, stay in by works. I have just found it doesn't really account for how much our wills are compromised and fallen. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't see some sinful tendency or actual sin that remains. I would hope that God shows mercy to those that don't deserve it. Otherwise I am in big trouble.

Yes, I believe all sin was dealt with at the Cross, Christ's sacrifice was perfect and sufficient for the sins of the whole world. I do think you are elevating morality beyond what is wise given the Christian tradition as a whole. God causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. He doesn't like sin, but he loves sinners. God isn't primarily concerned with morality as we understand it. Christianity is not a matter of being a good person or living up to some standard. It is a matter of death and life.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (in the sense of like how one would misplace one's car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God by refusing to take heed of the conviction of the Spirit to repent of their sin). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

• Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
• Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
• The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
• Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
• Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
• Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
• Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
• Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
• Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
• Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)
• Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

• The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)
• Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
• The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
• Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
• Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
• Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
• Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
• Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
• Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
• The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)

I am saying in Razare's view there is no reason for the Judgment.

But be not deceived, the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
For whatsoever ye sow ye shall reap. For...

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).

Not sure you caught what it said above. But it says, that Jesus will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM (any who profess Jesus Christ) and gather all who do iniquity (sin) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).



Yes, at the Judgment Seat of Christ, Jesus will say to certain professing believers that depart from me ye that work iniquity, I never knew you (See Matthew 7).



The 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. This is because it was Jesus who was doing the good work within them.


..

How is falling away from God, loosing salvation. Almost every Christian I know that has been in the faith since they were young backslid to some degree in their teens or early twenties. Your thinking is human thinking, not God thinking. Jesus said "I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU OR FORSAKE YOU". Now you don't think Jesus realized that people would have ups and downs in their faith?

Why else would God's Word say "bring a child up in the ways of the Lord and he will never go far from it"? FAR FROM IT? Far, is distance, Jesus knew that many would have faith trials.

But GOD IS FAITHFUL. Not us, but GOD.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Really? And you know my life how? Or do you just assume that nobody can do all of what is commanded of them in the New Testament? Is not holiness the standard for believers in God's Word? Did not Jesus say, be ye perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect? Did not Jesus tell two people to, "sin no more."?

Side Note:

Oh, and it is against forum rules to attack others by insulting them.
Anyways, may God's love shine upon you.
And please be well.

...

I don't pretend to know your life. That is your words. What I do know is what the Bible says. Do I believe that anyone has ever completely followed God without sin after salvation? No I do not. I know the flesh and even Paul had difficulties, so I would have placed my bet on Paul if someone did.

Of course Jesus does not want us to sin. We do not want to sin either. But the fact is that the flesh is weak, Biblical also. Paul says that what his mind wants to do to follow Christ, that his flesh betrays his mind.

I'm sorry you feel insulted, i was making a point. Jesus would like perfection, but Jesus cares more about love than sin. The two commandments Jesus left us with are to love. Now Jesus could have laid out the two commandments to be harsh sin warnings, but He did not. So, that tells me something.

May God's love always be with you also, brother.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That sounds very semi-pelagian. Get in by grace, stay in by works. I have just found it doesn't really account for how much our wills are compromised and fallen. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't see some sinful tendency or actual sin that remains. I would hope that God shows mercy to those that don't deserve it. Otherwise I am in big trouble.

The grace of God teaches us what? To deny ungodliness (Titus 2:12).
Obviously the grace of God is a part of the gospel message, no?
Jesus says narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that finds it.
The easy road or path (that most people are on) is easy believism. Just trust in Jesus and do not worry about your sin or a changed life.
But didn't Jesus have a problem with those who lived hypoctrically to His Word?

Yes, I believe all sin was dealt with at the Cross, Christ's sacrifice was perfect and sufficient for the sins of the whole world. I do think you are elevating morality beyond what is wise given the Christian tradition as a whole.

So if Hitler accepted Christ, and he had no change of life, his sins would be forgiven? That means he could continue to kill Jews and be forgiven? Please explain to me how that is moral, just, and good?

God causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. He doesn't like sin, but he loves sinners. God isn't primarily concerned with morality as we understand it. Christianity is not a matter of being a good person or living up to some standard. It is a matter of death and life.

Not sure what Bible your reading, but mine says this,

17 "but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He said unto him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
(Matthew 19:17-19).


...

 

[FireDragon76]

So if Hitler accepted Christ, and he had no change of life, his sins would be forgiven?

We are justified by faith alone.

It could be argued, I suppose, that Hitler by that time had abandoned any real faith but in the end that's God's place to judge.

Not sure what Bible your reading, but mine says this,

17 "but if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He said unto him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
19 Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
(Matthew 19:17-19).

The rich young ruler did not keep the commandments. The young man came to Jesus looking for affirmation in his works and self-promotion, Jesus didn't give in to him but pointed out that he hadn't kept all the commandments. So this just proves Luther's point that the Law always kills, it's a mirror we look into and see our need for Christ and his forgiveness and healing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't pretend to know your life. That is your words.

You called me a hypocrite before. So how are you not pretending to know my life if you are saying things like that about me?

What I do know is what the Bible says.

Well, I know what the Bible says, too; And we both cannot be right.
The difference between us is that my belief in the Bible lines up with the real world and morality.

Do I believe that anyone has ever completely followed God without sin after salvation? No I do not.

Then you need to read about the 144,000. For they were found without fault before the throne of God. See Revelation 14:3-5.

I know the flesh and even Paul had difficulties, so I would have placed my bet on Paul if someone did.

This is a commonly misunderstood chapter of the Bible by many Christians. In the bulk of Romans 7, Paul is talking from his experience as Pharisee (Jew) before he became a Christian. For at the end of Romans 7, Paul gives us the solution to overcoming His struggle with the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses). For in Romans 7:14, Paul says he is carnal and sold under sin (speaking from his experience as Pharisee), and in Romans 8:2 he says he is free from the Law of sin and death (speaking from his experience as a Christian).

Of course Jesus does not want us to sin. We do not want to sin either. But the fact is that the flesh is weak, Biblical also.

Jesus says to two people to "sin no more." In fact, the one man he healed and told to "sin no more" he gave a warning to him. He said if were to sin again, a worse thing were to come upon him (John 5:14). So this means Jesus believes it is possible for someone to stop sinning. If it were not so, then Jesus would have technically been lying to this poor man. Also, what was Jesus' solution to saying that the flesh is weak? Jesus says pray so as not to be led into temptation. Now, if one is not led into temptation, can they sin? Surely not. That is why Jesus says for us to pray so as not to be led into temptation. We need God to protect us from sinful sitations. But you have to want that, though (by praying to Him).

Paul says that what his mind wants to do to follow Christ, that his flesh betrays his mind.

Nowhere does Paul actually use those exact words, though. You are misunderstanding Romans 7.

I'm sorry you feel insulted, i was making a point.

You said before it was wrong to judge others, yet you called me a hypocrite and then say you are making a point now? Okay.

Jesus would like perfection, but Jesus cares more about love than sin.

Please show me in the Bible does it say Jesus cares more about love than sin?
Did not Jesus say if you love me, keep my Commandments (John 14:15).
Is not sin transgression of the Law (i.e. the Commandments)? (1 John 3:4).

The two commandments Jesus left us with are to love.

By which all of the Law and the prophets hang by. Granted, the Law of Moses (from Old Testament) is no more, but there are still Commands or Laws given to us within the New Covenant, though.

Now Jesus could have laid out the two commandments to be harsh sin warnings, but He did not. So, that tells me something.

Yet, Paul says,

8 "Owe no man anything, but to love one another: for he that loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 For this, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, You shall not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
10 Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
(Romans 13:8-10).

And he also says,

16 "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would.
18 But if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, impurity, licentiousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, jealousy, wrath, selfishness, divisions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revelings, and such like: of which I tell you beforehand, as I have also told you in time past, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, self-control: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."
(Galatians 5:16-25).

May God's love always be with you also, brother.

Peace be unto you.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We are justified by faith alone.

It could be argued, I suppose, that Hitler by that time had abandoned any real faith but in the end that's God's place to judge.

Well, basically what I am trying to discover from you is: What level of sin can a believer commit before God considers them not really a believer? Can you answer that? Can a believer commit murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc. and refuse to repent of such sins and be saved?

The rich young ruler did not keep the commandments. The young man came to Jesus looking for affirmation in his works and self-promotion, Jesus didn't give in to him but pointed out that he hadn't kept all the commandments. So this just proves Luther's point that the Law always kills, it's a mirror we look into and see our need for Christ and his forgiveness and healing.

No. That is not the point Jesus was making. Nowhere does Jesus ever suggest that his conversation with the richman was a way of not keeping his commandments. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. The rich man went away sad because he was not willing to give up his riches in following Jesus. The disciples asked, who then can be saved? Jesus said with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible. Is God going to side with people to act sinfully? Surely not. God is holy and He cannot align with people who do sinful things. The Bible says, he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8); And he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7).


...

 

[EmSw]

The rich young ruler did not keep the commandments. The young man came to Jesus looking for affirmation in his works and self-promotion, Jesus didn't give in to him but pointed out that he hadn't kept all the commandments. So this just proves Luther's point that the Law always kills, it's a mirror we look into and see our need for Christ and his forgiveness and healing.

Actually it does say he kept the commandments from his youth. Why do you to change what the word says?

Jesus DID NOT point out that he hadn't kept all the commandments! Unbelievable how some want to change the word.

Jesus did say, 'But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments'. Jesus told us how to enter (eternal life), but some do not believe this. How can they say they are saved by believing in Jesus, when they actually don't believe in His words?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, no doubt many folks here believe that when Paul says, "you are not under the Law" (Romans 6:14), they are probably thinking Paul was talking about all Law.

However, this is not true. For Paul was talking about the Law of Moses. How so?

First, Paul talks about circumcision in Romans 3:1 (Which is a part of the Law of Moses and not a part of any Commands within the New Testament).

Second, if you believe you are not under any Law or Command, or Commandment, then you are not under the following Commandment that says this,

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment" (1 John 3:23).

So are you or are you not under this Law or Commandment that tells us that we should believe on Jesus Christ?


...

 

[FireDragon76]

Actually it does say he kept the commandments from his youth. Why do you to change what the word says?

HE SAYS he kept the commandments. Jesus corrected him.

Jesus DID NOT point out that he hadn't kept all the commandments! Unbelievable how some want to change the word.

Yes, Jesus did. Jesus pointed out that if the rich young man really wanted to find affirmation from God as a law-keeper, he had to sell everything he had and give it to the poor. The rich young ruler went away sad because he knew he had not kept the law. See Jesus sermon on the mount, the standards he has are quite high. He says, sell what you have, give to the poor. If you even look at a woman lustfully, you are an adulterer. Those are quite high standards. Nobody honestly keeps them. And if you break one law, you are guilty of the whole law.

Jesus did say, 'But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments'. Jesus told us how to enter (eternal life), but some do not believe this. How can they say they are saved by believing in Jesus, when they actually don't believe in His words?

This is just a good example of how Biblicism doesn't work. You are reading the Bible looking for justification for your good works, and condemning other Christians who don't. That's no better than the Pharisee who says "I'm thankful that I am not like a sinner, that publican over there". And yet the sinner will go away justified.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

HE SAYS he kept the commandments. Jesus corrected him.

Yet, that does not UNDO the words of Jesus before. Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the Commandments. This statement by Jesus is still true. It does not become untrue by what else is said later. Nowhere does Jesus undercut his own words. Jesus said the richman lacks one thing. Sell all that he has and come follow Him. Was this impossible? No. The disciples did so. Were there other disciples who followed Jesus and then later stopped following Jesus saved? Were those disciples saved who stopped following Jesus?

Yes, Jesus did. Jesus pointed out that if the rich young man really wanted to find affirmation from God as a law-keeper, he had to sell everything he had and give it to the poor. The rich young ruler went away sad because he knew he had not kept the law.

No. You are adding to God's Word. It doesn't say that. The Bible says this is the reason why the richman went away said.

"But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions." (Matthew 19:22).

See Jesus sermon on the mount, the standards he has are quite high. He says, sell what you have, give to the poor. If you even look at a woman lustfully, you are an adulterer. Those are quite high standards. Nobody honestly keeps them. And if you break one law, you are guilty of the whole law.

Please show me where in the Sermon on the Mount or elswhere by the words of Jesus whereby he wanted us to feel defeated into keeping God's moral standard of Law and that nobody can honestly keep them? Was that really Jesus's point? If so, then show me Scripture.

As for the statement you quoted by James, his point was not about breaking the Law but in keeping it. For James says be ye doers of the Word and not hearers only deceiving your ownselves.

This is just a good example of how Biblicism doesn't work. You are reading the Bible looking for justification for your good works, and condemning other Christians who don't.

Have you ever did a study on James chapter 2?


...

 

[FireDragon76]

God wants us defeated so that we realize we are unprofitable servants. It's about a change of heart, not external behaviors. Good works don't earn salvation, they never have, they never will. The one who goes away justified before God confesses they are a sinner.

Yes, I'm very familiar with James. What James says doesn't overturn what Paul says, that we are justified by faith without works. It's important to be a doer of the law, to not be a hypocrite . But at the same time, fulfilling the law is not the legal basis for our salvation.

I can prove to you that we can be saved without works. A newborn baby, what works has it done? Whether you accept baptismal regeneration or not, suppose a baby is accepted by God, either through baptism or without baptism, what good works has it done? What good works did the Good Thief next to Jesus do? He did none, yet he was saved.

 

[ToBeLoved]

God wants us defeated so that we realize we are unprofitable servants. It's about a change of heart, not external behaviors. Good works don't earn salvation, they never have, they never will. The one who goes away justified before God confesses they are a sinner.

Yes, I'm very familiar with James. What James says doesn't overturn what Paul says, that we are justified by faith without works. It's important to be a doer of the law, to not be a hypocrite . But at the same time, fulfilling the law is not the legal basis for our salvation.

I can prove to you that we can be saved without works. A newborn baby, what works has it done? Whether you accept baptismal regeneration or not, suppose a baby is accepted by God, either through baptism or without baptism, what good works has it done? What good works did the Good Thief next to Jesus do? He did none, yet he was saved.

I agree.

What those who think one can loose their salvation think is that Jesus gave you this great gift. Nothing you can do to earn it. Gave it to you out of love, but then demands that you earn the right to keep it.

Now that would be an interesting way to structure a gift. I think God is way bigger and more loving than most people have faith in. I'm starting to think that those who believe that eternal salvation can be lost, actually believe that Jesus gave us a gift and then revokes it. Like a carrot and a stick to keep us chasing the carrot. It is lack of faith.

 

[fhansen]

Are there Christians today who minimize the consequences of sin and ignore morality on some level?

You know, are there believers today who treat serious sins (like murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc.) as if it was like we spilled a glass of milk before God?

I would have to answer both of these questions with a "yes."

Why? Well,, when I hear certain believers speak about sin: It makes it sound like God is saying this to them when they sin:

GOD:

"Aw, that's okay, my child. You just spilled a little milk. I can clean that up. It is not that big of a deal."​

To me, that is what it sounds like whenever hear certain Christians say that a believer can abide in unrepentant sin like (lusting after a woman or lying) and still be saved (as long as they have a belief on Jesus).

They say a believer will be chastised. But is that really a form of punishment? Do not even unbelievers go thru the same challenges as unbelievers?

Is not a "Sin and still be saved" type of belief minimizing sin and ignoring morality on some level?

Is not God good?

Why would God allow His people to get away with doing evil?

Does the work of Christ's death, burial, resurrection, and ascension really undo a person's current rebellion against God?

Why would God allow evil and rebellious people into God's Kingdom?
Why doesn't God just save everyone then?

Anyways, please answer the main question of the thread and cast your vote in the poll.

Thank you for reading.
And may God's love shine upon you.

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The New Covenant, the Good News, was never about God only forgiving and forgetting sin (Jer 31:34), but also about excluding it, about God placing His law in man's heart and writing it on his mind (Jer 31:33), so we'll "go, and sin no more". It's not about God's suddenly ignoring justice, but about His restoring it to His creation. Jesus didn't die so we could remain as "snow covered dung-heaps"; He wants way more for us than that. Man will never escape the most basic obligation to be righteous, to be obedient to God. Put another way, man will never escape the obligation to love.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God wants us defeated so that we realize we are unprofitable servants.

First, you are not continuing to address any of the verses or words within Scripture I brought up. I also posted other verses. Second, what happens to the unprofitable servant? The unprofitable servant is cast into outer darkness and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth by them. In Acts 7:54, those who stoned Stephen had gnashed their teeth at him. This is what wolves do.

See this image here by clicking on the following spoiler button:

Spoiler

So it is clear that the unprofitable servant is the type person who is being condemned here because they are associated with unbelievers.

It's about a change of heart, not external behaviors.

No. A change of heart leads to proper external behavior in obeying God's Commands within the New Testament (i.e. not the Old Testament).

Good works don't earn salvation, they never have, they never will.

While it is true that good works do not earn our salvation, they are required because it is showing that one is abiding in Christ who is the source of a person's life or salvation (1 John 5:12, cf. 2 Corinthians 13:5, 1 John 2:4). Good works come from the Lord living within a person. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5).

In fact, James says we justified works and not by faith only (James 2:24). Again, these are the works of Christ done thru the believer's life and they are not man directed works (or a form of Works Alone Type Salvationism).

The one who goes away justified before God confesses they are a sinner.

Well, nowhere in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee does it say or even suggest that the Tax Collector crying out to God to forgive him in being a sinner as a daily ritual for the rest of his life. The point of this parable is that the Pharisee did not cry out to God for forgiveness. The point was not showing how we will remain forever in sin for the rest our lives. It simply does not say that. In fact, we know that repentance is about confessing and forsaking sin. In Matthew 12:41, Jesus says that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah 3:6-10, you would see that the King of the Ninevites had told the people to cry to God and forsake their sinful ways. When God had seen that they had turned from their wickedness.... THEN... he had decided to not bring Wrath or Judgment upon them (as He had originally plan to bring upon them). It was NOT at the point they believed God had turned away from His Wrath. Read the chapter for yourself.

This truth is also confirmed elsewhere in the Bible.

Proverbs 28:13 says he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.
1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.
Meaning, one is forsaking their sin if they are walking in the light or righteousness (i.e. in obeying God's Commandments - See 1 John 2:3-6).

In fact, Peter tells Simon the Sorcerer to repent of his wickedness by way of prayer with the hope that God will forgive him.
Yet, Jesus says that repentance is also a forsaking of sin, too.

For in the Parable of the Two Sons, Jesus asks his disciples of which son did the will of the father. They said it was the first son who had repented and went out and did what the father told him to do. So true repentance is tied with action.

Yes, I'm very familiar with James. What James says doesn't overturn what Paul says, that we are justified by faith without works. It's important to be a doer of the law, to not be a hypocrite . But at the same time, fulfilling the law is not the legal basis for our salvation.

No. In Ephesians, Romans, and Galatians, Paul refers to how we are not justified by the Law of Moses and or Works Alone Salvationism.
In James, he is saying that we are justified by New Covenant works (or the works of Christ done thru the believer because Christ lives within all saved believers ---- And there is no life or salvation without Jesus - 1 John 5:12).

I can prove to you that we can be saved without works. A newborn baby, what works has it done? Whether you accept baptismal regeneration or not, suppose a baby is accepted by God, either through baptism or without baptism, what good works has it done? What good works did the Good Thief next to Jesus do? He did none, yet he was saved.

Yes, I am not in disagreement that a person is saved initially and ultimately by God's grace. But those who live out their faith will bring forth fruit that God is living within them (Who is the source of their eternal life). Also, sin is not imputed where there is no Law. Babies are not aware of the Law so as to be judged by it. Yet, death reigned from Adam to Moses. So even babies need a Savior. For Adam's transgression was passed upon all so that all have sinned.

As for the thief on the cross: He desired mercy from Jesus (although he did not use obvious words to express that point blank). The thief desired to be remembered by Jesus when He came into His Kingdom. This thief acted righteously by what he said and believed. However, if the thief were to spit in Jesus's face and act like the other thief and try and secretly believe in Jesus as His Savior (being two faced), I don't think things would have worked out for him then. Why? Because belief leads to proper action or in how one behaves. It is why Peter could not walk on the water (which was an action). It was his unbelief that did not allow him to do so.

Also, God is all knowing and sovereign over all things. I highly doubt God would allow someone into heaven who was going to be rebelliious and evil. That would not be my image of God's peaceful and loving Kingdom.


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