Are there any believers of homeopathy here?

[Subduction Zone]

This is the only ingredient in the homepathic pilules I used:

Thuja occidentalis (Arbor vitae): A Review of its Pharmaceutical, Pharmacological and Clinical Properties

I did check out some of their products. The "weak" ones that are rated at 6C would have been diluted by a factor of one trillion. Does one part in a trillion sound like it would have any effect on you at all? The "strong" ones rated at 30C have been diluted WAY past the Avogadro limit. It has been diluted by a factor of 10^-60. There would not be one molecule left of "medicine" in the "strong" version. So it does not matter at all what product they started with. With those sort of dilutions they could have put in anything and it would have had the same effect. That company is preying on the ignorance of people which is why I brought up this topic.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

I did check out some of their products. The "weak" ones that are rated at 6C would have been diluted by a factor of one trillion. Does one part in a trillion sound like it would have any effect on you at all? The "strong" ones rated at 30C have been diluted WAY past the Avogadro limit. It has been diluted by a factor of 10^-60. There would not be one molecule left of "medicine" in the "strong" version. So it does not matter at all what product they started with. With those sort of dilutions they could have put in anything and it would have had the same effect. That company is preying on the ignorance of people which is why I brought up this topic.

I checked on their website about how homoeopathy works and it does mention the dilution you brought up:

Homoeopathic medicine is understood to act by stimulating a healing response in the body by way of its similarity to the existing complaint. When choosing a remedy we note the important symptoms experienced by the person and select a remedy with a similar ‘remedy picture’. A very small dose of that remedy is then administered to stimulate healing.

Homoeopathy follows definite scientific laws of preparation, prescription and cure. These medicines have been prepared in a specific way by a potentising or activating process involving dilution and succussion (shaking hard).

About Homoeopathy | Owen Homoeopathics​

Homeopathic medicine is not normally my first choice of treatment. The reason why I use it for a particular recurring skin viral infection is because nothing else works. Doctors just tell you there is nothing they can do except to wait for it to go away by itself in up to four years' time. I found the combination of homeopathic pilules and topical herbal cream/vitamin E oil/tea tree oil/iodine could effectively get rid of them in less than two weeks. I tried only just topical without homeopathic pilules, but after two weeks, they were still there. Not sure why the homeopathic pilules make such a difference, but they seem to work for this particular condition.

 

[Tom 1]

This will not be a religious debate at all, hopefully, since there is no support or opposition to homeopathy in the Bible. At least as far as I can see.

My question is can literally nothing cure you of anything?

The placebo effect can be pretty powerful.

 

[DogmaHunter]

i have found homeopathy to be much better than medicine - i have drug reactions and had to find alternative therapies

i read an article that drug companies can NOT patent herbs so they study herbs and isolate one property/element of the many properties/elements in a herb and then try to synthesize it

the next step is to overdose the test animals to find out at what level it causes death - and then cut the level back to 50% and market it

the problem with this is that the herb has many elements that work together to accomplish much good for many issues - and when one element is isolated it produces side effects - thus the death quotient

my experience is that eating real foods/herbs/essential oils is effective and cost effective

supplements can also work but are expensive

drugs are very expensive and not claimed as cures but as symptom management

What you are talking about, is NOT homeopathy.

EDIT: I see it was already cleared up in subsequent posts. nevermind.

 

[DogmaHunter]

It works because it centers your thoughts and belief on the new method of healing. We think is it the pill doing the work, when it is your faith in the pill that is working. If we has the same faith in God alone.....the results would be the same. But it is easier to put trust in something we can see, touch....swallow

You're talking about the placebo effect, which only goes as far as it gets.
Placebo's will never cure you from an actual serious illness.

Placebo's won't make your cancer go away, for example.
They might "stop" your headache though.

 

[RaymondG]

You're talking about the placebo effect, which only goes as far as it gets.
Placebo's will never cure you from an actual serious illness.

Placebo's won't make your cancer go away, for example.
They might "stop" your headache though.

No, Im talking about faith. There are claims of those who say that they were healed from cancer by Faith..... I guess their claims should be taken as seriously as those who claim it doesnt work without having tried it.

It all boils down to what you believe and what you are willing to test out for yourself. If I am not willing to try, I see no harm in allowing others to try......and it would be cheating if your try to push your doubt on the one willing to try.....as 100% faith is required..... If you want to be totally fair......voice no doubt and only support for the one willing to try....and observe the outcome.

Some need to see and feel to believe, but blessed are they who, without seeing......believe.

 

[DogmaHunter]

No, Im talking about faith.

If you're equating faith with placebo's, I'ld agree with that.
But it doesn't change the point I made.

There are claims of those who say that they were healed from cancer by Faith.....

People claim a lot of things.

I guess their claims should be taken as seriously as those who claim it doesnt work without having tried it.

How serious claims are to be taken, is directly proportional with the evidence in support of them.

In this particular case, there is about as much evidence for those claims as those who claim to have been abducted by aliens and anally probed.

It all boils down to what you believe and what you are willing to test out for yourself.

No. It boils down to what can be supported by evidence and what can't.
The placebo effect is very well understood.

If I am not willing to try, I see no harm in allowing others to try......and it would be cheating if your try to push your doubt on the one willing to try.....as 100% faith is required.....

If "faith" would do anything at all, then there would be a clear signal in double blind experiments to test the effect thereof.

But what such experiments show, is that it doesn't do anything at all, except for the placebo effect.

Double blind experiments, trump personal anecdotes any day of the week.

If you want to be totally fair......voice no doubt and only support for the one willing to try....and observe the outcome.

I only care about objective outcomes.
What people merely "believe", is of no interest to me when the point is to get to the truth of the matter.

Some need to see and feel to believe, but blessed are they who, without seeing......believe.

Myeah, I don't consider gullibility to being a "blessing". Au contraire, actually. I consider it more of a curse/shortcoming then anything else.

 

[RaymondG]

If you're equating faith with placebo's, I'ld agree with that.
But it doesn't change the point I made.

If you are equating Placebo's to Faith, I'll agree with you as well......tomato/toemoto

People claim a lot of things.

Yes, they claim the existence of the nonexistent and the nonexistence of the existent equally......both equally exclaimed through mere belief

How serious claims are to be taken, is directly proportional with the evidence in support of them.

In this particular case, there is about as much evidence for those claims as those who claim to have been abducted by aliens and anally probed.

The evidence of others do little for me......experience is what I aim for. But i see nothing wrong with living off the experience and evidence gathered by others either.

No. It boils down to what can be supported by evidence and what can't.
The placebo effect is very well understood.

Yes the idea of faith is understood..... but not too many know how to practice it. So they just go off the success and failures of others

If "faith" would do anything at all, then there would be a clear signal in double blind experiments to test the effect thereof.

But what such experiments show, is that it doesn't do anything at all, except for the placebo effect.

Double blind experiments, trump personal anecdotes any day of the week.

Yes I agree.....have you conduct one of these experiments? Note, even if you have and succeeded, I would need to try it myself before labeling it "truth"

I only care about objective outcomes.
What people merely "believe", is of no interest to me when the point is to get to the truth of the matter.

Indeed, the beliefs of others dont interest me either. I should be able to experience and test what you say and write down......and if I dont.....and just except what is said or is written.....then I too become just a believer....

Myeah, I don't consider gullibility to being a "blessing". Au contraire, actually. I consider it more of a curse/shortcoming then anything else.

Yes I would say as well that reading books and watching others experiments and living my life base off of that, is not wise. wisdom could with experience.....how much of what you believe have you experienced?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I checked on their website about how homoeopathy works and it does mention the dilution you brought up:

Homoeopathic medicine is understood to act by stimulating a healing response in the body by way of its similarity to the existing complaint. When choosing a remedy we note the important symptoms experienced by the person and select a remedy with a similar ‘remedy picture’. A very small dose of that remedy is then administered to stimulate healing.

Homoeopathy follows definite scientific laws of preparation, prescription and cure. These medicines have been prepared in a specific way by a potentising or activating process involving dilution and succussion (shaking hard).

About Homoeopathy | Owen Homoeopathics​

Homeopathic medicine is not normally my first choice of treatment. The reason why I use it for a particular recurring skin viral infection is because nothing else works. Doctors just tell you there is nothing they can do except to wait for it to go away by itself in up to four years' time. I found the combination of homeopathic pilules and topical herbal cream/vitamin E oil/tea tree oil/iodine could effectively get rid of them in less than two weeks. I tried only just topical without homeopathic pilules, but after two weeks, they were still there. Not sure why the homeopathic pilules make such a difference, but they seem to work for this particular condition.

It is a mistake to rely on a questionable source for a definition of what they are doing. I gave a link on homeopathy earlier that explained it. They have conned you. Did you check out the Wiki article that I linked on it? If you go to the company that you are buying from they have two "strengths" that I have seen them sell. The "weak" version (homeopathy is truly insane in their belief that they less medicine that they give you the stronger it is) has been diluted to one part in one trillion. They claim it is "6C". In homeopathy that means it has been diluted by a factor of 100 6 times. The "strong" version is "30C". That means it has been diluted by a factor of 100 30 times. or by a factor of 10^60.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The placebo effect can be pretty powerful.

Only mentally. It has no physical effect.

 

[Tom 1]

Only mentally. It has no physical effect.

Actually it has tremendous physical as well as psychological affects, don’t underestimate how the mind can alter what goes on in the body. There are a lot of studies on it that have been around for years, it’s really quite astonishing, just what an effect it can have. There are a few studies collected here: https://www.nature.com/subjects/placebo-effect
At least some of the positive effects of anti-depressants have been linked in trials and studies to the placebo effect. Depressive states can have a huge impact on a person’s physical wellbeing, and can lead to serious illness and a significant reduction in life expectancy - the reverse is true when the placebo effect has an influence over the thinking of a depressed person.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually it has tremendous physical as well as psychological affects, don’t underestimate how the mind can alter what goes on in the body. There are a lot of studies on it that have been around for years, it’s really quite astonishing, just what an effect it can have. There are a few studies collected here: https://www.nature.com/subjects/placebo-effect
At least some of the positive effects of anti-depressants have been linked in trials and studies to the placebo effect. Depressive states can have a huge impact on a person’s physical wellbeing, and can lead to serious illness and a significant reduction in life expectancy - the reverse is true when the placebo effect has an influence over the thinking of a depressed person.

Okay, I will grant that one's mental health state can affect a cure somewhat. The first article on the gastrointestinal tract seems to be such a case. And I can see how that might be, we have all heard the phrase "worried sick".

 

[quatona]

Only mentally. It has no physical effect.

In my understanding the mind has a huge effect on the body.

 

[USincognito]

That is not homeopathy. Homeopathy is the claim that the material that causes a disease can somehow cure it. To do this a portion of that substance is measured out and then diluted, that substance is diluted, and again and again. The problem with homeopathy is that one eventually dilutes the material past Avogadro's limit. And then some. It is so diluted that not one molecule of the original substance is likely to be found in any dose of homeopathic medicine:

Homeopathy - Wikipedia

What you described is definitely NOT homeopathy. In the U.S. any homeopathic cure has to have a disclaimer on it that essentially tells people that it does not cure anything. Unfortunately they can couch the terms so that the average person does not understand them, or they do not read them since they are always in the fine print.

Don't forget the succussing. The shaking is tremendously important for turning diluted water into "medicine".

 

[Ophiolite]

This is the only ingredient in the homepathic pilules I used:

Thuja occidentalis (Arbor vitae): A Review of its Pharmaceutical, Pharmacological and Clinical Properties

Only mentally. It has no physical effect.

You have made a series of outstandingly good posts throughout this thread. Kudos for starting it. Kudos for patiently explaining the concepts to other members. Serious black marks for your silly comment here. The mental state of individuals has enormous impact upon their physical condition. This is thoroughly documented. That's what the placebo effect is.

I have read many hundreds of your posts and this is the first that I can recall in which I find error or disagreement. But it is a lulu!
Looking forward to hundreds more, error free.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You have made a series of outstandingly good posts throughout this thread. Kudos for starting it. Kudos for patiently explaining the concepts to other members. Serious black marks for your silly comment here. The mental state of individuals has enormous impact upon their physical condition. This is thoroughly documented. That's what the placebo effect is.

I have read many hundreds of your posts and this is the first that I can recall in which I find error or disagreement. But it is a lulu!
Looking forward to hundreds more, error free.

Yes, I overstated that one. The placebo effect is real though it often does not lead to an actual cure it does make symptoms more manageable and in some cases, where anxiety can make symptoms worse, can of course help in the cure.

Now to get back on topic at best homeopathy does give a strong placebo effect since people do really believe, even more so than in studies, that they are getting "real medicine". In proper double blind studies a person cannot know that he is getting medicine or not so the placebo effect will not be as strong. They cannot know that they are getting a supposed medicine.

And one has to be careful about the studies that are out there. Some of them imply that there may be something to homoepathy, but those studeis are often biased. To get the big picture one must look at studies of studies or meta-studies. Here is one such article:

Randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled trials of non-individualised homeopathic treatment: systematic review and meta-analysis

Please note that when all studies are looked at it seems that homeopathy may have some positive effect. But when possible biased studies were removed it performed, as expected, no better than placebos.

There, does that atone for my earlier faux pas?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

The very practice itself is flimsy...the assertion alone that a statistically negligible amount can heal anything is dubious at best.

If you look at the definition:
the treatment of disease by minute doses of natural substances that, in a healthy person, would produce symptoms of disease.

This is a completely counter-intuitive practice that, to date, has never been able to produce any trackable positive results, only anecdotes of "so & so tried it and it worked!"


Of course, part of this can be blamed on a complete confusion of terms, as when I talk to most people who claim to believe in homeopathy, and I ask them what that is, they give a definition along the lines of "Using all natural remedies and herbal supplements instead of pharmaceuticals" - which is actually closer to Naturopathic...also largely rooted in quackery, but just not quite as "quacky" as homeopathy.

 

[loveofourlord]

And they do not do that with the flu vaccine. You are trying to make a strawman. The problem with homeopathy is that you are taking literally nothing. With vaccines they are injecting you with "dead" viruses.

Also it's the theory that like cures like, so you take a homeopathic dilution of ebola to cure bola, or if your having a asthma attack you take a homeopathic dilution of cyanide, and otehr stupid things.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I have tried one type of homeopathic pills on someone in my family to treat a skin viral infection in conjunction with topical treatment. It seemed to be more effective when the homeopathic pills were taken than without. On the other hand, another type of homeopathic pills for hay fever did not seem to work. It seems like the effectiveness of homeopathy depends on what condition you are trying to treat.

Or you may have gotten better due to the non-homeopathic medicine. When proper double blind studies are done homeopathic remedies work no better than placebos.

...also, a lot of times things are branded as "homeopathic remedies" when they're actually not. (which also helps to add to the confusion I referenced in my previous post)...as even certain products try to use the words "homeopathic" and "natural" interchangeably when they're actually two totally different concepts.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Also it's the theory that like cures like, so you take a homeopathic dilution of ebola to cure bola, or if your having a asthma attack you take a homeopathic dilution of cyanide, and otehr stupid things.

It's not quite that direct; the homeopathic 'Principle of Similars' suggests that anything that causes similar symptoms can potentially be used to cure the malady when taken in very low doses (e.g. raw onion makes your eyes & nose water, snuff makes your eyes & nose water, and makes you sneeze, so both might be potential remedies for a cold); selection of the most effective remedy from several substances that produce the same symptoms is called 'proving', and involves giving a dozen or so people homeopathic doses (i.e. nothing) of each remedy and having them record their thoughts, feelings, dreams and habits, which are then analyzed to find the most efficacious remedy. All subjective, no controls.

Incidentally, the originator of homeopathy, Samuel Hahnemann, thought that even extreme dilutions would still leave some of the 'active' ingredient in doses, and that the more extreme the dilution the more effective the dose. Subsequently, Avagadro's work on molecular theory proved that this was incorrect, and that doses of all but the very lowest dilutions would contain none of the remedy at all. It was then that explanations such as 'water memory', and so-on, were devised to preserve lucrative businesses.

Every idea in homeopathy, from the Principle of Similars, through potentization (dilution & succussion), proving, etc., is complete nonsense scientifically, and each idea is an entirely independent piece of nonsense; it's a remarkable achievement and a testament to the combined effects of the profit motive, gullibility, and the placebo effect, that it continues today.

One positive aspect of traditional homeopathy is the detailed consultation, which is known to enhance the placebo effect; the other benefit, particularly in the days when certified medicine involved large quantities of toxic substances and blood-letting, was that it is quite harmless, even when the remedy involved is extremely toxic.

See Homeopathy.