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Are there any arguments for creation...

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Subduction Zone

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God says it is sufficient. That's my starting and finishing point.
When? Where? If you claim in the Bible you take on a huge burden of proof. If you ever study the Bible the Bible never claims to be perfect or even "God's word" for that matter. At best it refers to an undefined "scripture" as being God's word and that could only be applied to writings that predate that particular one.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Every event is embedded in time except for the first event of time itself which makes the first event unique. There is no point in talking about the micro until the macro is established so does any of this point to my personal God... that's not the point. It establishes a space where God exists
No, you don't get to assume God. All we have is a "We don't know yet." That is never evidence for a God.
 
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DamianWarS

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No, you don't get to assume God. All we have is a "We don't know yet." That is never evidence for a God.
And you don't get to not assume God. Since it is empirically unknown, God is both existent and non-existent at the same time. Since we have no capacity to peak in the box that is the best science can get.
 
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DamianWarS

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Or any other means.
by empirical means, no, but God can be realized through other means, such as logic and theory or in subjective ways like belief and experience, or simply surrender. I suspect you won't like those answers but since we already know God is unprovable through the lens of science we have to accept other ways to measure God.
 
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Subduction Zone

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And you don't get to not assume God. Since it is empirically unknown, God is both existent and non-existent at the same time. Since we have no capacity to peak in the box that is the best science can get.
Who do you think is assuming "not God"?
 
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Subduction Zone

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by empirical means, no, but God can be realized through other means, such as logic and theory or in subjective ways like belief and experience, or simply surrender. I suspect you won't like those answers but since we already know God is unprovable through the lens of science we have to accept other ways to measure God.
I have only seen God argued for using logical fallacies. Perhaps you may be able to come up with a valid argument. And I don't think you understand what "theory" means. If you can find a reliable way to argue for God I will listen. But if you repeat old errors I will merely roll my eyes.
 
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Qwertyui0p

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Subduction Zone

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  • Agree
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pitabread

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Aussie Pete

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When? Where? If you claim in the Bible you take on a huge burden of proof. If you ever study the Bible the Bible never claims to be perfect or even "God's word" for that matter. At best it refers to an undefined "scripture" as being God's word and that could only be applied to writings that predate that particular one.
Wriggle all you like. You won't get off the hook.

Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse."
 
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Dorothy Mae

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... that don't ultimately boil down to an argument from incredulity and/or awe?

edited to add for clarification:

By "creation" I'm referring to the typical supernatural creation stories about the creation of the universe, stars, the planets, life, etc.
I’ve never heard any arguments that end in awe. I’ve only heard logical ones.

Books are written on this but essentially DNA is complex information code. Information is not a material substance and always comes from an intelligent source. Information never evolves naturally. Hence the information that is the source of living creatures must have come from an intelligence.

Additional to that, from observation we know that life only comes from life. Life never springs from non-life in observation (science.) This against points to God, a living source.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Wriggle all you like. You won't get off the hook.

Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse."
I am not wriggling, I am laughing. Either the interpreter or the writer did not understand the concept of evidence. If anyone is wriggling it is the creationists. They are tend to be very afraid of the concept of evidence. I am sorry, but you have none.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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I am not wriggling, I am laughing. Either the interpreter or the writer did not understand the concept of evidence. If anyone is wriggling it is the creationists. They are tend to be very afraid of the concept of evidence. I am sorry, but you have none.
Well the fact is that when a creationist quotes the Bible to support their case, they’ve lost the argument and shown their ignorance of the subject.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Actually we have heard them all. There is not one that does not fail miserably. Perhaps you have something new?
You’re aware of the problem for atheists that information code always comes from intelligence? How do you answer this so that it fails miserably?
 
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Subduction Zone

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You’re aware of the problem for atheists that information code always comes from intelligence? How do you answer this so that it fails miserably?

Where did you get that idea from? And yes, that one fails miserably since those using it usually cannot even define the terms that they use.

First off, it is an error to call DNA a code in the same way that the Morse Code is a code. That is an equivocation fallacy.

Seriously do you think that you have something that is not a PRATT?
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Sorry, but the theory of evolution is simply reality.
It’s a theory in crises because doesn’t stand up to its premises.
It is not an escape clause. It does not disprove God.
For many it’s the reason they became atheists.
If there is a God then why cannot any believer find reliable evidence for that God?
Because we have evidence for a Being who is in relationship. It’s like asking for evidence of a marriage when written witness of it is not allowed. When I married my husband I believed he loved me but I had no evidence that would satisfy you here. It was nevertheless true.
You may claim to "know God" but knowledge is demonstrable. To me it looks as if you only have belief.
Correct. What evidence of knowledge would satisfy you?
Now I could explain how we know that evolution is a fact, but you would have to be willing to learn some of the basics of science first.
When one goes beyond basic science evolution has glaring holes in its ability to explain. I have read of many who dropped it when they worked in science beyond the elementary level realizing the problems.

Not meaning to be personally but most atheists I discuss with in sites are totally unaware of the deep problems with the theory. Are you different?
 
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Subduction Zone

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It’s a theory in crises because doesn’t stand up to its premises.

Citation needed. A real source, not a comedy one please. If a source requires that one not follow the scientific method it is a comedy source.

For many it’s the reason they became atheists.

So? What does that have to do with it? If gravity was the reason that many became atheists would you oppose gravity?

Because we have evidence for a Being who is in relationship. It’s like asking for evidence of a marriage when written witness of it is not allowed. When I married my husband I believed he loved me but I had no evidence that would satisfy you here. It was nevertheless true.

No, I don't think you have any reliable evidence for a God. You probably do not understand the concept of evidence. I have yet to meet a creationist that does.

Correct. What evidence of knowledge would satisfy you?

Anything reliable would be a good start.

When one goes beyond basic science evolution has glaring holes in its ability to explain. I have read of many who dropped it when they worked in science beyond the elementary level realizing the problems.

Not meaning to be personally but most atheists I discuss with in sites are totally unaware of the deep problems with the theory. Are you different?


What "holes"? Creationists always claim holes but they never seem to be able to find any. And the number of scientists that oppose evolution is minuscule. They are an extremely small minority. Of those that study it it is a fraction of one percent. In other words the percentage of scientists that oppose the theory of evolution is smaller than the percentage of people that have a serious mental illness. Food for thought.

And you have yet to name one "deep problem with the theory". Can you find any? Can you do so by using science based sources and not ones that openly reject science?
 
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DamianWarS

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I have only seen God argued for using logical fallacies. Perhaps you may be able to come up with a valid argument. And I don't think you understand what "theory" means. If you can find a reliable way to argue for God I will listen. But if you repeat old errors I will merely roll my eyes.
Theory has broader definitions. Since we have established that according to science we cannot prove God I am not using the term "theory" in a scientific sense.
 
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