Are there any arguments for creation...

[pitabread]

We've been down this track to nowhere before. You won't convince me and I won't convince you.

Sure. But that's still the reality of the situation, regardless of whether you want to accept it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You got that right. Atheists being the prime example.

That is quite backwards. When have atheists done this?

 

[Subduction Zone]

The only wonder of evolution is that anyone believes it.

Backwards again. It is a wonder that anyone rejects it. But then there are people that reject gravity as well. The difference between a creationist and a Flat Earther is only a matter of degree.

 

[pitabread]

Of course, the creation/evolution debate has nothing to do with the existence of God. It's about the Bible.

A lot of fundamentalists seem to believe that if you're not one of them you might as well be an atheist.

 

[pitabread]

Then the universe is the exception to every rule.

Not exactly. Rather it comes down the fact that our understanding of physics is provisional and doesn't work at every level.

Those using first cause arguments often are projecting a classical view of physics and causality into scenarios where that may not apply.

We exist in a space time continuam. Outside of the continuam is outside of space and time so it cannot be measured by space and time. Whatever force it is would be eternal and uncreated based on our laws because it is not define by space/matter (so is uncreated) or time (so is eternal).

We don't know if a 'force' is required in the first place. We don't even know if there even is an 'outside' of our universe.

You're starting with a bunch of unwarranted assumptions about the very nature of our universe.

 

[pitabread]

What about the fine-tuning argument?

I suppose this would qualify, thank you!

 

[Aussie Pete]

I am not the ignorant one here. I understand how we know that evolution is a fact. You apparently do not. Why did you conflate atheism and evolution? Do you conflate atheism and gravity?

And that verse is somewhat correct. It would also be correct if it said "The fool has said in his heart, "There is a God." Now can you apply reason and see why that is the case?

Evolution theory is the escape clause for atheists. I grew up with one. I have a reasonable idea of what made him tick. The reason that I say there is a God is very simple. It is true. That you do not believe does not make it untrue. I suspected there was a God as a child and into my teens. I came to know God shortly before my 21st birthday. I've known God for nearly 50 years.

It does not matter what you say to most atheists. Nothing can convince them that they are wrong. When faced with overwhelming evidence, atheists still say that they do not believe. You choice. You will have eternity to regret it.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Of course, the creation/evolution debate has nothing to do with the existence of God. It's about the Bible.

I disbelieved evolution long before became a Christian, and that in spite of my atheist father promoting evolution to me. When I was at school, evolution and Creation were presented as alternatives. We had the right to choose for ourselves. Evolution made no sense to me then or now.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Evolution theory is the escape clause for atheists. I grew up with one. I have a reasonable idea of what made him tick. The reason that I say there is a God is very simple. It is true. That you do not believe does not make it untrue. I suspected there was a God as a child and into my teens. I came to know God shortly before my 21st birthday. I've known God for nearly 50 years.

It does not matter what you say to most atheists. Nothing can convince them that they are wrong. When faced with overwhelming evidence, atheists still say that they do not believe. You choice. You will have eternity to regret it.

Sorry, but the theory of evolution is simply reality. It is not an escape clause. It does not disprove God. Now it may disprove mistaken versions of God, but if your version of God made a "Flat Earth" then that is a mistaken version as well.

If there is a God then why cannot any believer find reliable evidence for that God? You may claim to "know God" but knowledge is demonstrable. To me it looks as if you only have belief. Now I could explain how we know that evolution is a fact, but you would have to be willing to learn some of the basics of science first. For some reason I doubt if you will do that.

You speak of "overwhelming evidence" and I am betting that you do not even understand the concept of evidence. Would you like to start there?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I disbelieved evolution long before became a Christian, and that in spite of my atheist father promoting evolution to me. When I was at school, evolution and Creation were presented as alternatives. We had the right to choose for ourselves. Evolution made no sense to me then or now.

And whose fault is that?

 

[pitabread]

Evolution made no sense to me then or now.

So not understanding something is reason to disbelieve it?

 

[St_Worm2]

... that don't ultimately boil down to an argument from incredulity and/or awe?

edited to add for clarification:

By "creation" I'm referring to the typical supernatural creation stories about the creation of the universe, stars, the planets, life, etc.

Hello pitabread, if you are truly interested, here's a great place to start, the feature film, Is Genesis History?. It is an extremely well-done movie/documentary that will answer at least some of your questions (and there is MUCH more to be found at Is Genesis History? - The Documentary Film with Del Tackett).

It is no longer free on Netflix or Amazon Prime, so you'll need to spend at least $1.99 if you'd like to see it here: Is Genesis History? Feature Film ~or~ here: Watch Is Genesis History? | Prime Video

Many people don’t realize just how many scientists and scholars see Genesis as the key to understanding the world around us. Each of these experts (the movie's cast) has spent decades working in his respective field to better understand how it relates to the history recorded in the Bible.

• Kevin Anderson, PhD – Microbiologist
• Steve Austin, PhD – Geologist
• Steven Boyd, PhD – Hebraist
• Robert Carter, PhD – Marine Biologist
• Arthur Chadwick, PhD – Taphonomist
• Danny Faulkner, PhD – Astronomer
• George Grant, PhD – Pastor
• Paul Nelson, PhD – Philosopher of Science
• Douglas Petrovich, PhD – Archeologist
• Marcus Ross, PhD – Paleontologist
• Andrew Snelling, PhD – Geologist
• Kurt Wise, PhD – Paleontologist
• Todd Wood, PhD – Biologist
• Stuart Burgess, PhD – Mechanical Engineer (Bonus Features)
• Douglas Kelly, PhD – Theologian (Bonus Features)
• Larry Vardiman, PhD – Atmospheric Physicist (Bonus Features)

--David

 

[DamianWarS]

Then why believe? Probability is a knife that cuts both ways. You just stated that there is no evidence for God, even though you probably do not realize that.

I stated God is unprovable through science.

 

[pitabread]

Hello pitabread, if you are truly interested, here's a great place to start, the feature film, Is Genesis History?. It is an extremely well-done movie/documentary that will answer at least some of your questions (and there is MUCH more to be found at Is Genesis History? - The Documentary Film with Del Tackett).

For what it's worth, while I haven't seen that particular film, I did spend over a decade immersing myself in creationist arguments and am well versed in the material. Unless that film brings something new to the table (and from what I've read about it, it doesn't) then it likely doesn't contain anything I haven't heard before.

That said, if there is a particular argument from that film you feel relates to the OP, then feel free to present it.

 

[pitabread]

Paul Nelson, PhD – Philosopher of Science

On a side note, Paul Nelson apparently dissented from his role in that film: New Film Is Genesis History? Presents a False Dichotomy: I Dissent from My Role in It | Evolution News

 

[DamianWarS]

Sorry, that is a fail on your part. First off there are uncaused events. They occur all of the time on a quantum level. It is not a violation of logic, you merely formed the argument poorly. Second, even if there was a "cause" you do not get to assume that it was a god and especially not your personal God. William Lane Craig's abuse of the Kalam has been endlessly refuted.

Every event is embedded in time except for the first event of time itself which makes the first event unique. There is no point in talking about the micro until the macro is established so does any of this point to my personal God... that's not the point. It establishes a space where God exists

 

[Aussie Pete]

Sorry, but the theory of evolution is simply reality. It is not an escape clause. It does not disprove God. Now it may disprove mistaken versions of God, but if your version of God made a "Flat Earth" then that is a mistaken version as well.

If there is a God then why cannot any believer find reliable evidence for that God? You may claim to "know God" but knowledge is demonstrable. To me it looks as if you only have belief. Now I could explain how we know that evolution is a fact, but you would have to be willing to learn some of the basics of science first. For some reason I doubt if you will do that.

You speak of "overwhelming evidence" and I am betting that you do not even understand the concept of evidence. Would you like to start there?

God says it is sufficient. That's my starting and finishing point.

 

[Ophiolite]

God says it is sufficient. That's my starting and finishing point.

The trouble with circular arguments is that you never know when you've got to the end, so it is really difficult to get off. Trapped on a fairground ride for eternity, the towns the carnival visits and revisits slowly decaying into dust as the haunting strains of the Calliope echo in your confused mind.

No. Not for me. I vote for sceptical analysis and education.

 

[St_Worm2]

........if there is a particular argument from that film you feel relates to the OP, then feel free to present it.

My positing of Is Genesis History? wasn't meant to be the basis for a discussion, it was just meant to be informational (I normally don't like being offered long movies/videos as the sole basis for discussion at places like this either). That said, your idea of posting a particular argument from the film is a good one, so I will take a look and do so, hopefully this weekend.

Thanks for the heads-up about Dr. Paul Nelson as well

--David

 

[Subduction Zone]

I stated God is unprovable through science.

Or any other means.