Are there 3 heavens?

[mkgal1]

No, he very explicitly says he was caught up to the third Heaven when he was stoned and almost died.

Are you referring to 2nd Cor 12 as where he explicitly said/wrote that? If so....I'd quoted the verse prior that said he (Paul) was speaking of "visions and revelations".

 

[mkgal1]

My understanding of the text is, Paul couldn't tell if he was literally taken forward in time, to the 3rd heaven, or was merely experiencing the event in his spirit/mind.

That's how I understand the text as well.

 

[Sanoy]

My understanding of the text is, Paul couldn't tell if he was literally taken forward in time, to the 3rd heaven, or was merely experiencing the event in his spirit/mind.

Peter's explanation is very clear, there is;
1) the heaven and earth of old, (pre-flood), and
2) the current heaven and earth, and
3) the future "new heavens, and new earth" (Rev 21, Isa 65:17, Isa 66:22).

What about 1 Kings 8:27 “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!"

There are plenty of places in the Bible that indicate there are different heavens. In every case in the Bible that I am aware of it refers to a place. As far as I know this would be the very first and only case where Heaven is used as a time tense (past future present).

 

[Kutte]

Are there more than just 'one' heaven? It depends on what one means by 'heaven'.

 

[Galatea]

Are you referring to 2nd Cor 12 as where he explicitly said/wrote that? If so....I'd quoted the verse prior that said he (Paul) was speaking of "visions and revelations".

You are correct. I misread it. It seems that St. Paul was not sure if he had a near death experience or a vision while he was stoned.

Thanks for correcting me.

 

[Aaron Rich]

I would certainly agree with you original languages are important. That's why I study Hebrew. That said, there are Christian Hebrew scholars and there are Jewish Hebrew scholars. And both are capable of error.

I would also agree with your point about Hebrew thinking vs. Greek thinking. I would merely add that ancient Hebrew thinkers were fallible also.

And roots of words are interesting, but don't really tell us anything about this particular issue.

But the idea of ancient jewish writings being inerrant is simply ridiculous. They were fallible sinners just like us. Our real task is simple. What meaning were the original writers of Scripture conveying under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

I did try to indicate that those writings had fallacy in them and for that reason the Scriptures are the only absolute authority. My apologies if you misunderstood or I misspoke.

 

[Dartman]

What about 1 Kings 8:27 “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!"

There are plenty of places in the Bible that indicate there are different heavens. In every case in the Bible that I am aware of it refers to a place. As far as I know this would be the very first and only case where Heaven is used as a time tense (past future present).

Hello Sanoy,
Heaven is indeed a place, like the earth is a place. But the Scriptures discuss "NEW" heavens, and earth in several references: Rev 21, Isa 65:17, Isa 66:22, 2 Peter 3.
The very first chapter of the Bible records the creation of the heavens.
The 2nd heaven and earth, (which are now), are places. Jesus WAS on earth, ascended to heaven, will LEAVE heaven, and RETURN to the earth.
And, heaven CAN refer to where the birds fly (Gen 1:20), OR it can refer to ANY thing above the earth (Gen 1:9), OR it can refer to Jehovah/YHVH God's location somewhere in heaven/space.

 

[mkgal1]

It seems that St. Paul was not sure if he had a near death experience or a vision while he was stoned.

This is immature of me....but I couldn't help but laugh at this ( the "while he was stoned" part--as in the other form of "stoned"....under the influence kind of 'stoned'). Sorry..... I just had to share.

 

[Dartman]

You are correct. I misread it. It seems that St. Paul was not sure if he had a near death experience or a vision while he was stoned.

Thanks for correcting me.

I don't see in 2 Cor 12, that Paul states his vision was during any stoning?

 

[Dartman]

What about 1 Kings 8:27 “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!"

There are plenty of places in the Bible that indicate there are different heavens. In every case in the Bible that I am aware of it refers to a place. As far as I know this would be the very first and only case where Heaven is used as a time tense (past future present).

Sorry, I didn't really address your 1 Kings quote. The answer to Solomon's question is, God can dwell anywhere He likes. Specifically God WILL most certainly dwell on the "NEW/3rd" earth;

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.

 

[timewerx]

I think the fact that you readily admit there is no Biblical support for what you read from the Gospel of Mary to be something worth mulling over. Do you consider non-canonical books just as authoritative as Scripture? Do you consider Scripture as authoritative?

Only if I can find a basis or can be observed in reality.

Can you please explain your theological idea of people possessing levels of heaven inside of them? Have you drawn out this theological concept from personal experience an non-canonical gnostic writings alone?

At first it's a personal experience and then later I find something similar in other scriptures.

"heaven" isn't always a place of paradise in context. It can simply mean "outer space" or the skies or the space the stars occupy -- interstellar space. They are neither good or bad and evil entities can exist there. And evil entities may include man.

How could such thing exist in our bodies, most of the answer lies in Quantum Mechanics, however the Gospel of Mary supports that notion.

 

[Galatea]

I don't see in 2 Cor 12, that Paul states his vision was during any stoning?

It is in the eleventh chapter. Paul talks about how he was beaten five times with 39 stripes (scrupulous Pharisees, following the law), three times he was beaten with rods, once he was stoned- this is hearkening back to what happened to St. Paul in Lystra by the Jews from Antioch.

Acts 14:19 Luke recounts what had happened "And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead."

The Jews were rather thorough and thought they had killed Paul, so threw his body out of Lystra. Most people think this is when St. Paul was caught up to the third Heaven. This is probably why he was not sure if it were a near death experience or what.

Luke doesn't SAY that he adminstered to St. Paul medically, but the disciples thought that St. Paul was dead. Verse 20 "Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe."

I personally believe that God caused Luke to go along with Paul on his missionary journeys to doctor him whenever he was persecuted. This is my idea only, of course.

 

[Galatea]

This is immature of me....but I couldn't help but laugh at this ( the "while he was stoned" part--as in the other form of "stoned"....under the influence kind of 'stoned'). Sorry..... I just had to share.

That's alright. I am not of the 1960s or 1970s generation, so I don't automatically think of stoned as being under the influence of drugs. I think those of us who came along in the 1980s and 1990s think of being under the influence as "being high". I know the first time I heard Bob Dylan's song "Everybody Must Get Stoned" I really wondered why he was saying everyone had to be stoned with rocks being thrown.

I thought it was something deep like everyone is a sinner, so everyone should be stoned with rocks. I was rather disappointed to find out the song was about drugs.

 

[toLiJC]

In the bible you hear of being caught up into the third heaven, which SUGGESTS that there must be a 1st and a 2nd heaven for a 3rd to exsist.

What are your thoughts and do you have scripture and reference to back up your opinion?

by revelation, the "heaven" of this world is the first, the "heaven" of the new world, where is the heavenly paradise, is the second, and the third is the "heaven" of the true Saints, which is the world of perfect love for the brother/neighbor/cohabitant - only people that work for overall salvation in the true God could live in the third "heaven"

Blessings

 

[GTW27]

Apostle Paul did teach there is more than one heaven. He went to the 3rd

So why do men teach that Paul went to the third Heaven?

 

[DamianWarS]

In the bible you hear of being caught up into the third heaven, which SUGGESTS that there must be a 1st and a 2nd heaven for a 3rd to exsist.

What are your thoughts and do you have scripture and reference to back up your opinion?

The Hebrew word for "heaven" is more properly sky and they understand there to be 3 layers, the immediate sky or aerial heavens, (where birds and clouds are), the firmament in which the stars are supposed to be placed that can be called the sidereal or starry heavens, and lastly the dwelling place of God/angels.

based on the text (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) this man went to the "third heaven" but then Paul makes a point to say "I know that this man was caught up into paradise" like he had to be clear what the third heaven was. Since Paul makes a point to identify this third layer as paradise it would indicate the other levels of heaven are contrasted with paradise and may suggest the natural sky rather than then a spirit realm. If true this would indicate the third heaven is the spirit realm where God dwells or what we would just call "heaven".

 

[ChristianFromKazakhstan]

So why do men teach that Paul went to the third Heaven?

Based on 2 Cor 12:2

 

[Sanoy]

Sorry, I didn't really address your 1 Kings quote. The answer to Solomon's question is, God can dwell anywhere He likes. Specifically God WILL most certainly dwell on the "NEW/3rd" earth;

I understand about the three heavens you have been quoting. That is clear. What isn't clear is where else in the bible heaven is used to indicate time tense. (Past, present, future)

Also how do you exegetically derive time from that verse in kings. Other translations have this as the heaven of heavens rather than highest heaven. 0 translations indicate heaven as a tense for this verse.

 

[GTW27]

Based on 2 Cor 12:2

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven---weather in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows. And I know
that this man was caught up into Paradise--- weather in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows---and he heard things that cannot be told which man cannot utter. On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses.

 

[Dartman]

I understand about the three heavens you have been quoting. That is clear. What isn't clear is where else in the bible heaven is used to indicate time tense. (Past, present, future)

There are 4 other passages that discuss "New" heavens, and "New" earth. Isa 65:17, Isa 66:20, 2 Peter 3:5-13, and Rev 21-22. The word "heaven" isn't related to time .... "third" is. So is "new".

Also how do you exegetically derive time from that verse in kings. Other translations have this as the heaven of heavens rather than highest heaven. 0 translations indicate heaven as a tense for this verse.

I don't derive time in 1 Kings 8.27. 1 Kings 8:27 doesn't contradict the fact that Jehovah/YHVH God is going to LEAVE the 3rd heaven, and come and dwell on the earth with the immortal righteous (Rev 21-22, Job 19:25-28, Psa 17:15, Matt 5:5 & 8)

The word "contain" in 1 Kings 8:27, means to restrict God.... like;
Jer 6:11 Therefore I am full of the fury of the Lord; I am weary with holding in:

God cannot be restricted to any temple, is Solomon's point.