Are there 3 heavens?

Solomons Porch

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I always thought this was the common knowledge as well.
Hey LILAC and Neo
This is not new information to me, and I like to see others thought n beliefs on the subject, mainly due to the fact that I have a reason for asking, which is to build a foundation for a subject on a much deeper level. :oldthumbsup:
 
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RaymondG

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The gospel of Mary??
Never heard of it? Wait till someone tells you about the Gospel of Judas! More books excluded from the bible than most people know......not saying the the exclusion wasnt justified.
 
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Solomons Porch

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Never heard of it? Wait till someone tells you about the Gospel of Judas! More books excluded from the bible than most people know......not saying the the exclusion wasnt justified.
Nope, never heard of it, this is a first.
 
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Sanoy

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Wasn't Paul writing about a vision or revelation....not actually *going* there? In that case.....can't it be a bit of a metaphor instead of a tangible and physical "place"?

2nd Corinthians 12:1 = "I will reluctantly tell about visions and revelations from the Lord."

It wasn't a vision because Paul included the possibility that the person arrived bodily.

"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows."
 
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Sanoy

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Why was the book removed? Or whats the story there?

Here is a link to a podcast transcript that gives a detailed description of how the book of Enoch played out in the canonization process. Some church fathers believed it but most of the majority did not and those who did like Tertullian yielded to the majority. Some churches did have it in their canon though.

The reason why it is worth reading (book 1 anyway) is because it is directly speaking to a generation living in the time of tribulation. And that Jude claims it contains prophecy. Jude verse 14 "It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying... [at which point he quotes the Book of Enoch]. I don't know how much of the book is authentic but at least some of it appears to be. It's the only book that is not in the Bible that I think is worth knowing the content of. It explains a lot like the ritual of the scape goat (azazel), why some tribes had to be wiped out by God, and how the world became so corrupted, and what demons are.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Never heard of it? Wait till someone tells you about the Gospel of Judas! More books excluded from the bible than most people know......not saying the the exclusion wasnt justified.

Saying it was excluded would suggest that it was ever considered for inclusion. The Gnostic "Gospels" were never considered for canonical inclusion, the only books that were at any time regarded by some as canonical but did not ultimately make it into the Canon are a handful of books which were part of the Antilegomena (some of the Antilegomena did make it into the Canon, such as 2 Peter, Hebrews, Jude, James, and the Apocalypse of John). But heretical texts were never considered, they were never excluded from the Bible because they were never part of the received tradition of the Church.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Galatea

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Wasn't Paul writing about a vision or revelation....not actually *going* there? In that case.....can't it be a bit of a metaphor instead of a tangible and physical "place"?

2nd Corinthians 12:1 = "I will reluctantly tell about visions and revelations from the Lord."
No, he very explicitly says he was caught up to the third Heaven when he was stoned and almost died.
 
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GTW27

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Nope, never heard of it, this is a first.

The perfect video at the perfect time. O so true. How can we not bear testimony to a Love such as this. Does it really matter how many heavens there are? The Love of God is the message.
 
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Radrook

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True, but the telepathic part strikes home to me, due to how He speaks to me personally, and also, bible states He knows our thoughts from afar :D
Privacy doesn't exist since we are constantly scrutinized both in action and thought-right?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Why was the book removed? Or whats the story there?

It was never removed. 1 Enoch was never part of the reading corpus of the ancient Church; the Biblical Canon developed around what books were regularly read as part of the liturgy (Scripture readings, basically); such books were limited to the ones found in the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, and of the New Testament the homolegomena (the universally accepted books, such as the four Gospels, the Acts, and the thirteen epistles of St. Paul) and Antilegomena (the disputed books, such as the Epistle of Clement, the Epistle of Barnabas, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, James, Jude, the Apocalypse of John, or the Didache); nothing outside of these books were ever part of the Christian Church's list of books which were read for the general edification of the Faithful. All disputes over the Biblical Canon can be limited to these--pseudopigraphical, heretical, and highly fanciful works were never even remotely considered or taken seriously. That doesn't mean they weren't read privately for any variety of purposes (curiosity for example), but they were never regarded by anyone as Scripture.

To ask why Enoch was removed from the Canon would be like asking why Plato's Republic was removed, or why Tolkien's The Hobbit was removed.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Solomons Porch

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Privacy doesn't exist since we are constantly scrutinized both in action and thought-right?
True to an extent yes, BUT, when I am talking and conversing with my Father, not speaking out loud, satan cannot know what I am saying, nor can he know what the Father is saying to me, therefore, I keep him in the dark, not knowing what sweet communion we are having together, and he is uninvited ;)........... Inside of us is the kingdom of heaven, where the trinity flows and operates on a level satan cannot understand or have because he was not created in Gods image as we were, disadvantage on his point, total advantage on ours. So the only thing that coward CAN DO is throw negative and intrusive thoughts our way, HOPING we will take them nasty thoughts of his, so that he can interrupt that "telepathic" language that only those created in the image of God can have in unity. As I am going into that sweet communion right now as we speak............... BLESS THE LORD O MY SOUL !!

 
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Dartman

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Actually, Peter not only figured it out, he spelled it out;

2 Peter 3:5-7 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:11-13 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
 
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Hillsage

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Why was the book removed? Or whats the story there?
It wasn't removed from cannon, it was never added. Below I'll post a short portion of a more lengthy answer on that URL page;

"OK! OK! So why is it not in the Bible?


Uncertain as well as multiple authorship, and several slightly varying texts are among the main reasons cited for Enoch not "making it" into the generally recognized canon. In truth, the spiritual agenda(s) of the early Roman Church is most likely the ultimate reason however, and we will examine this agenda here as well. Let's begin with the first two though, before moving to the more incredulous, but quite valid "conspiracy theories."
"
 
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Radrook

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True to an extent yes, BUT, when I am talking and conversing with my Father, not speaking out loud, satan cannot know what I am saying, nor can he know what the Father is saying to me, therefore, I keep him in the dark, not knowing what sweet communion we are having together, and he is uninvited ;)........... Inside of us is the kingdom of heaven, where the trinity flows and operates on a level satan cannot understand or have because he was not created in Gods image as we were, disadvantage on his point, total advantage on ours. So the only thing that coward CAN DO is throw negative and intrusive thoughts our way, HOPING we will take them nasty thoughts of his, so that he can interrupt that "telepathic" language that only those created in the image of God can have in unity. As I am going into that sweet communion right now as we speak............... BLESS THE LORD O MY SOUL !!


So there is also no privacy in the sense that Satan can infuse foreign thoughts in our brains to tempt us-correct?
 
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Hillsage

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It was never removed. 1 Enoch was never part of the reading corpus of the ancient Church; the Biblical Canon developed around what books were regularly read as part of the liturgy (Scripture readings, basically); such books were limited to the ones found in the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, and of the New Testament the homolegomena (the universally accepted books, such as the four Gospels, the Acts, and the thirteen epistles of St. Paul) and Antilegomena (the disputed books, such as the Epistle of Clement, the Epistle of Barnabas, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, James, Jude, the Apocalypse of John, or the Didache); nothing outside of these books were ever part of the Christian Church's list of books which were read for the general edification of the Faithful. All disputes over the Biblical Canon can be limited to these--pseudopigraphical, heretical, and highly fanciful works were never even remotely considered or taken seriously. That doesn't mean they weren't read privately for any variety of purposes (curiosity for example), but they were never regarded by anyone as Scripture.

To ask why Enoch was removed from the Canon would be like asking why Plato's Republic was removed, or why Tolkien's The Hobbit was removed.

-CryptoLutheran
I don't know if your answer might not be just a bit too flippant. "The Ethiopic Church even added the Book of Enoch to its official cannon." But the Hobbit and Plato weren't in their Cannon index, when I looked to confirm the above quote.

"The Book of Enoch was extant centuries before the birth of Christ and yet is considered by many to be more Christian in its theology than Jewish. It was also considered scripture by many early Christians. The earliest literature of the so-called “Church Fathers” is filled with references to this mysterious book. The early second century “Epistle of Barnabus” makes much use of the Book of Enoch. Second and Third Century “Church Fathers” like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the Book of Enoch.

Tertullian (160-230 C.E) even called the Book of Enoch “Holy Scripture”.
It was widely known and read for the first three centuries after Christ. This and many other books became discredited after the Council of Laodicea in 360 AD. And being under ban by authorities, it gradually passed out of circulation.
"

Interesting quotes above, IMO. But this is definitely 'off topic' so enough has probably been said.
 
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SPF

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There is some truth about the Seven levels of Heaven in the Gospel of Mary. Some of it can be encountered in dreams.
Where does Scripture teach about seven levels of heaven?

When Jesus casted out Seven demons from Mary in the Bible, I believe this is referring to Each demon who existed in each level of "Heaven" in Mary.
Can you provide any Biblical support for this? How could a person have levels of "heaven" inside of them? Isn't Heaven a location?

One way you can get rid of evil spirits is by disinfection by getting rid of harmful bacteria or disease. They thrive in these conditions.
Can you provide any Biblical support for this idea? What's your source for knowing this?
 
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timewerx

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Where does Scripture teach about seven levels of heaven?

Can you provide any Biblical support for this? How could a person have levels of "heaven" inside of them? Isn't Heaven a location?

Can you provide any Biblical support for this idea? What's your source for knowing this?

I actually told my source as the Gospel of Mary, I'm surprised, you didn't see it.

NO, there is no biblical support for it. I'm simply a non-denominational Christian so I'm entitled to read non-canon scriptures also.

However, I did personally experience a few levels of that heaven based on the Gospel of Mary. To me, it's real and the knowledge has helped me to guard against and get rid of evil spirits.
 
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Calminian

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In the bible you hear of being caught up into the third heaven, which SUGGESTS that there must be a 1st and a 2nd heaven for a 3rd to exsist.

What are your thoughts and do you have scripture and reference to back up your opinion?

I've looked into this quite a bit. Yes, the 3rd heaven is referenced by Paul, but it's also interesting to note that the Tabernacle is said to be a model or copy of heaven. Interestingly, the Tabernacle is comprised of 3 distinct areas: the outer courts, the holy place and the holy of holies.
screen-shot-2012-04-10-at-9-37-50-am1.png


The Holy Place and the Holy of Holies are surrounded by the outer court. According to Hebrews, the Tabernacle is an earthly copy of heaven (Heb. 9:23-24). I'm thinking Paul may have had this in mind. Also, Jesus is said to have passed through the real heaven just as the high priest passed through the Tabernacle (Heb. 4:14)

If heaven is an actual physical place (which I believe it is) it would seem logical that the entire cosmos could be the outer courts or the 1st heaven, and the 2nd and 3rd heaven are somewhere in its midst.

I like this explanation better than the traditional view of atmosphere, outer space, and spiritual (non-physical) explanation. That one just doesn't seem to have any basis in Scripture.
 
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SPF

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NO, there is no biblical support for it. I'm simply a non-denominational Christian so I'm entitled to read non-canon scriptures also.
Anyone is free to read anything they want. I too am a non-denominational Christian. But I'm also educated enough to recognize a false work attributed to someone who is not the author as something that is more than likely an unreliable gnostic text.

I think the fact that you readily admit there is no Biblical support for what you read from the Gospel of Mary to be something worth mulling over. Do you consider non-canonical books just as authoritative as Scripture? Do you consider Scripture as authoritative?

I did personally experience a few levels of that heaven based on the Gospel of Mary
Can you please explain your theological idea of people possessing levels of heaven inside of them? Have you drawn out this theological concept from personal experience an non-canonical gnostic writings alone?
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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In the bible you hear of being caught up into the third heaven, which SUGGESTS that there must be a 1st and a 2nd heaven for a 3rd to exist.

What are your thoughts and do you have scripture and reference to back up your opinion?
Hi the 3 heavens are the sky, the cosmos and Gods dwelling which is an altogether different dimension. The sons of God were presenting themselves to God and Satan was among them and was asked where have you been and he answered going to an fro throughout the earth. To get an idea on this quantum physics suggest that there is evidence for a multiverse which would make sense for angles and all popping in and out.

Multiverse - Wikipedia
 
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