Are theological absurdities actually holy mysteries?

[katerinah1947]

What do your family and friends think? When my father was getting chemotherapy, he became delusional. Afterwards, he told us that if that ever happened again, he wanted people to tell him that he was delusional rather than politely nodding our heads in agreement. With that in mind, you sound like you are having delusions. That doesn't invalidate your mystical experiences of God. You can experience God while you have a physical illness like the flu, so you can also experience God while you have a mental illness like delusions. Both can be true. I had delusions several years ago, so it can happen to anybody - just like anybody can get the flu. When you get the flu, you take care of yourself until you get better. I don't know the details of your experiences, but I wanted to give you my honest opinion FWIW.

Hi,

All of this was checked. It was checked by others to see if any other explanations were present.

I tried to tell a Psychologist one day that I was mentally ill, for all those events. He told me that is not possible, because each incident was corroborated and checked for hallucinations and accuracy, and each incident was correct and corroborated.

Mental illness, delusions or hallucinations, I think are for things that did not really occur, but are thought to have.

One day,I told my workmates of an incident. They asked me, if anyone was there, that could corroborate that I had actually spoken to a person, and supernatural events happened.

I realized that it was just me, and this stranger to me as he was working, and my house was one of many he visited.

So, I spent a few days, seeing if indeed what happened happened.

I finally tracked down his workplace, and told them who I was without bringing up the incident carefully, as I wanted to double check with the man what I had told him.

The boss told me he remembered that night.

Remember, this is just one corroboration. There are many. All items were done with corroborations. I am a scientist, and that is normal to that profession, so then I knew no better, and just double checked or triple checked everything.

His boss said: "I remember that night. He came in shaken. I asked him if something happened out there. He said yes. I asked him if he wanted to talk about it. He said no."

I then told the boss that I am the one he talked to that night.

I had just come back from Seeing The Essence of God, and having Jesus Christ reveal to me his Core Personality, and seeing The Virgin Mary, and now was writing things when I got back from that foreign country that I was called to for this set of events.

I did not really know the source then of what I was writing. So, in my case I told God, unless He proved to me that it was Him, that I would never write again like that, and I stopped instantly.

(All of this also has a secondary corroboration, Father Matt did that, with a test. It came back positive.)

Well, Jason did not know God well, even Though Jesus Christ paid him a personal visit one day in his life, and I knew God very well by then, and when I found out, I stressed over this strangers situation.

So, I asked God for the day, when he saw Jesus Christ, but silently to Jason, and while we were in a conversation.

A day, A month and a year came back. I was unsure of the information, as to the source and the certainty of it.

So I asked again, and of course while still talking and listening, this time though the words were said to him, and you would have thought that I had punched him, with a hard left.

He took a step back, by the way the two dates to me were identical, both the first one I did not say, and the second one that the words were said, involuntarily, I think.

He was given a month, a year and a day, that he saw Jesus, and he was told, that was the day it happened.

He was stunned. I was scared. He took a step back off the entrance platform to my house. His head was turned to the left. He would say nothing. I waited, wondering what just happened.

Finally, without ever turning his head back to me, he told me that was the day his mother died.

Now, I was upset. Of all the arrogance, off all the pride, thinking that I had given him the date he saw Jesus, and all I did was remind him of the horror of the day that his mother died. But wait, there is more. If that was all that happened, thus would be over.

Feeling every bit horrible, I am apologizing, and apologizing and apologizing.

Nothing was working. His head was to the left. He had not moved. I am really sorry and upset.

Some more words, he struggled to say. Slowly, they came out: That was the day I saw Jesus.

That is still not the end. More happened, and then it was over.

And, had I not been question on how that could have been a hallucination, I never would have gone back to check to make sure, two weeks later.

But, I did.

LOVE,

 

[cloudyday2]

Hi,

All of this was checked. It was checked by others to see if any other explanations were present.

I tried to tell a Psychologist one day that I was mentally ill, for all those events. He told me that is not possible, because each incident was corroborated and checked for hallucinations and accuracy, and each incident was correct and corroborated.

Mental illness, delusions or hallucinations, I think are for things that did not really occur, but are thought to have.

One day,I told my workmates of an incident. They asked me, if anyone was there, that could corroborate that I had actually spoken to a person, and supernatural events happened.

I realized that it was just me, and this stranger to me as he was working, and my house was one of many he visited.

So, I spent a few days, seeing if indeed what happened happened.

I finally tracked down his workplace, and told them who I was without bringing up the incident carefully, as I wanted to double check with the man what I had told him.

The boss told me he remembered that night.

Remember, this is just one corroboration. There are many. All items were done with corroborations. I am a scientist, and that is normal to that profession, so then I knew no better, and just double checked or triple checked everything.

His boss said: "I remember that night. He came in shaken. I asked him if something happened out there. He said yes. I asked him if he wanted to talk about it. He said no."

I then told the boss that I am the one he talked to that night.

I had just come back from Seeing The Essence of God, and having Jesus Christ reveal to me his Core Personality, and seeing The Virgin Mary, and now was writing things when I got back from that foreign country that I was called to for this set of events.

I did not really know the source then of what I was writing. So, in my case I told God, unless He proved to me that it was Him, that I would never write again like that, and I stopped instantly.

(All of this also has a secondary corroboration, Father Matt did that, with a test. It came back positive.)

Well, Jason did not know God well, even Though Jesus Christ paid him a personal visit one day in his life, and I knew God very well by then, and when I found out, I stressed over this strangers situation.

So, I asked God for the day, when he saw Jesus Christ, but silently to Jason, and while we were in a conversation.

A day, A month and a year came back. I was unsure of the information, as to the source and the certainty of it.

So I asked again, and of course while still talking and listening, this time though the words were said to him, and you would have thought that I had punched him, with a hard left.

He took a step back, by the way the two dates to me were identical, both the first one I did not say, and the second one that the words were said, involuntarily, I think.

He was given a month, a year and a day, that he saw Jesus, and he was told, that was the day it happened.

He was stunned. I was scared. He took a step back off the entrance platform to my house. His head was turned to the left. He would say nothing. I waited, wondering what just happened.

Finally, without ever turning his head back to me, he told me that was the day his mother died.

Now, I was upset. Of all the arrogance, off all the pride, thinking that I had given him the date he saw Jesus, and all I did was remind him of the horror of the day that his mother died. But wait, there is more. If that was all that happened, thus would be over.

Feeling every bit horrible, I am apologizing, and apologizing and apologizing.

Nothing was working. His head was to the left. He had not moved. I am really sorry and upset.

Some more words, he struggled to say. Slowly, they came out: That was the day I saw Jesus.

That is still not the end. More happened, and then it was over.

And, had I not been question on how that could have been a hallucination, I never would have gone back to check to make sure, two weeks later.

But, I did.

LOVE,

O.k. One problem is that when you were the person who corroborated your experiences, it is possible that you hallucinated the corroborations along with the experiences. Ideally a third person should interview the witnesses on your behalf. Even then, you might hallucinate that the third person helped you corroborate. Ultimately there is no way to rule out hallucinations. If you watched the movie "Matrix", then you can imagine the possibilities.

Another thing that came to mind from your posts is hormones. Maybe you were taking hormones to change your gender? Hormonal changes can cause hallucinations and delusions.

So there are some skeptical thoughts to consider.

 

[katerinah1947]

O.k. One problem is that when you were the person who corroborated your experiences, it is possible that you hallucinated the corroborations along with the experiences. Ideally a third person should interview the witnesses on your behalf. Even then, you might hallucinate that the third person helped you corroborate. Ultimately there is no way to rule out hallucinations. If you watched the movie "Matrix", then you can imagine the possibilities.

Another thing that came to mind from your posts is hormones. Maybe you were taking hormones to change your gender? Hormonal changes can cause hallucinations and delusions.

So there are some skeptical thoughts to consider.

Hi,

All of those possibilities were eliminated also.

Multiple people were involved, who are very real and proven to be real.

Even they were checked.


I was not on hormones, then, if that helps you out.

Because I work with PTSD types, and Various people with various issues, I have rather frequent associations with mental health professionals and now the police and sheriffs now.

I have had to make more than one usage of mental health professionals to handle some of those people over the years.

No one in that group or even in objective research, has seen me make an error factually.

If I was delusional or hallucinogenic, both of those outcomes would not be possible.

Other than a non mental health issue, called being Transgender, they including the government required Ph.D. Psychologist for that even, have always cleared me of any mental health issues, and for years.

I am 68. That is a lot of years, to go through, and still be told, not only do I have no mental health issues, but my long work career of ever more and more complex assignments, run counter to mental illness.

Work wise, I was the go to person for almost all the problems that no one else could solve, and some of those were problems in business , some were in care taking for my parents, three were on getting others through college.

To shorten this, all the mental health professionals have cleared me of all depths even of hallucinations and delusions, so far.

To help me, they decided to write me a diagnosis, that I keep, to protect me in the future from those who wish to use things like, transgenderism, or mysticism, or mental health against me, in any way.

I wondered why they did that, and then I was told. Normally, people like me hide out to protect themselves from others. I do not.

Since, in the past various people, from con man to Narcissist, have been able to nail me long enough in a confrontation where they are wrong, and not just with me but with the Law, the paperwork was seen as necessary. Not all confrontations involve the law, some are scientific, some are social, some are personal.

When in real life, I have to diagnose working models of Sociopath, Borderline, Narcissist, to protect you or others from them, the paperwork shortens that work, as one of their normal ways of operating, is to get everyone to credibly believe that everyone else is guilty, but them.

Now, I flash the paperwork, and almost instantly we are back to the task at hand, which is them then and not me.

LOVE,

 

[cloudyday2]

Hi,

All of those possibilities were eliminated also.

Multiple people were involved, who are very real and proven to be real.

Even they were checked.


I was not on hormones, then, if that helps you out.

Because I work with PTSD types, and Various people with various issues, I have rather frequent associations with mental health professionals and now the police and sheriffs now.

I have had to make more than one usage of mental health professionals to handle some of those people over the years.

No one in that group or even in objective research, has seen me make an error factually.

If I was delusional or hallucinogenic, both of those outcomes would not be possible.

Other than a non mental health issue, called being Transgender, they including the government required Ph.D. Psychologist for that even, have always cleared me of any mental health issues, and for years.

I am 68. That is a lot of years, to go through, and still be told, not only do I have no mental health issues, but my long work career of ever more and more complex assignments, run counter to mental illness.

Work wise, I was the go to person for almost all the problems that no one else could solve, and some of those were problems in business , some were in care taking for my parents, three were on getting others through college.

To shorten this, all the mental health professionals have cleared me of all depths even of hallucinations and delusions, so far.

To help me, they decided to write me a diagnosis, that I keep, to protect me in the future from those who wish to use things like, transgenderism, or mysticism, or mental health against me, in any way.

I wondered why they did that, and then I was told. Normally, people like me hide out to protect themselves from others. I do not.

Since, in the past various people, from con man to Narcissist, have been able to nail me long enough in a confrontation where they are wrong, and not just with me but with the Law, the paperwork was seen as necessary. Not all confrontations involve the law, some are scientific, some are social, some are personal.

When in real life, I have to diagnose working models of Sociopath, Borderline, Narcissist, to protect you or others from them, the paperwork shortens that work, as one of their normal ways of operating, is to get everyone to credibly believe that everyone else is guilty, but them.

Now, I flash the paperwork, and almost instantly we are back to the task at hand, which is them then and not me.

LOVE,

O.k.

 

[rockytopva]

Is virtue knowledge? Can it be taught?

Plato's Meno is a dialogue in which Socrates and Meno discuss human virtue: whether or not it can be taught, whether it is shared by all human beings, and whether it is one quality or many.

After discussion with Anytus, Socrates and Meno return to the subject of whether Virtue can be taught. "To sum up our inquiry," Socrates concludes, "the result seems to be that virtue is neither natural nor acquired, but an instinct given by God to the virtuous."

Meno's theme is also being dealt in the dialogue of Protagoras, where, Plato finally puts Socrates to conclude with the opposite conclusion 'That virtue can be taught.' It is important to conclude that virtue is in different departments than knowledge. One may have an understanding as vast as the great outdoors, And not a thing in the heart!

To try to teach that which is not knowledge the bible makes use of metaphors and John Bunyan makes use of his metaphors in his writings in which he explains...

"In parables there are two things to be taken notice of, and to be inquired into of them that read. First, The metaphors made use of. Second, The doctrine or mysteries couched under such metaphors.

"The metaphors in this parable (the barren fig tree) are, 1. A certain man; 2. A vineyard; 3. A fig-tree, barren or fruitless; 4. A dresser; 5. Three years; 6. Digging and dunging, &c." - John Bunyan

The problem is that each man will read into the parables and come up with some kind of different interpretation.

 

[juvenissun]

Jesus saved us from death. All of us. If He didn't save us from death we all would be in hell forever. Because Jesus saved us from death, He saved us from hell. All of us. Death = hell.

I think you included atheists in this salvation. Right?
If so, where would atheist be, if not in the Heaven?
And who remained in the hell?

 

[Alla27]

I think you included atheists in this salvation. Right?

The Scripture is clear that by one man Adam ALL will die, by one man Jesus ALL will have immortality.

If so, where would atheist be, if not in the Heaven?

Atheist will have an opportunity to accept Christ in spirit world before his/her resurrection. If atheist was good person, and accepted Christ in spirit world, he or she will be in Heaven.

And who remained in the hell?

Nobody. But there is a place that is called "outer darkness" (according to the Bible). There is also second death according to the Bible. Who will be there?
The answer: Satan, his demons and those who are called "sons of perdition". These sinned against the Holy Ghost. And they are NOT atheists. They are those who KNEW that God lives but denied it and persecuted true Church of Christ.

 

[juvenissun]

The Scripture is clear that by one man Adam ALL will die, by one man Jesus ALL will have immortality.

Atheist will have an opportunity to accept Christ in spirit world before his/her resurrection. If atheist was good person, and accepted Christ in spirit world, he or she will be in Heaven.

Nobody. But there is a place that is called "outer darkness" (according to the Bible). There is also second death according to the Bible. Who will be there?
The answer: Satan, his demons and those who are called "sons of perdition". These sinned against the Holy Ghost. And they are NOT atheists. They are those who KNEW that God lives but denied it and persecuted true Church of Christ.

Where would be those atheists who are not good person but accept Christ in spirit?
Where would be those atheists who are not good person and do not accept Christ in spirit?

 

[Alla27]

Where would be those atheists who are not good person but accept Christ in spirit?

In the world God prepared for them.

Where would be those atheists who are not good person and do not accept Christ in spirit?

In the world God prepared for them.
According to LDS Doctrine those worlds have different glories - terrestrial and telestial. World where Gods Father, Son and the Holy Ghost live has celestial glory.
Because of Jesus Christ all people will have immortality. All those who were evil people and who didn't have faith in Christ will be in hell until resurrection. Then they will be out of this pit -death - hell.
Because of Jesus Christ those who were good people and who didn't reject Christ(belonged to TRUE Church of Christ) will have immortality AND eternal life.

 

[juvenissun]

In the world God prepared for them.

In the world God prepared for them.
According to LDS Doctrine those worlds have different glories - terrestrial and telestial. World where Gods Father, Son and the Holy Ghost live has celestial glory.
Because of Jesus Christ all people will have immortality. All those who were evil people and who didn't have faith in Christ will be in hell until resurrection. Then they will be out of this pit -death - hell.
Because of Jesus Christ those who were good people and who didn't reject Christ(belonged to TRUE Church of Christ) will have immortality AND eternal life.

1. How many "places" God has prepared for different kinds of people?
2. Who does not have eternal life?

 

[radhead]

There are many absurdities in religion. But since I believe that the creator and his universe are logical and make sense, then those absurdities must be lies (if taken literally).

 

[cloudyday2]

There are many absurdities in religion. But since I believe that the creator and his universe are logical and make sense, then those absurdities must be lies (if taken literally).

I wonder if "logical" and "make sense" have any meaning by themselves? Could a different universe exist with an entirely different meaning for "logical" and "make sense"?

 

[rakovsky]

I've noticed that Christian theology often leads to absurdities and contradictions. In a math class, the contradiction would imply that some of the starting assumptions of the theology were false, however, in Christian theology the contradiction becomes a source of wonderment - a holy mystery. Some examples might be the Trinity, the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, non-universal salvation by grace, ... I'm sure there are many more examples too.

So the Christian theologian doesn't say, "oops, an absurdity. I better check my starting assumptions". No, he/she says, "hallelujah, a holy mystery. The Lord works in wonderful and mysterious ways that surpass the reasoning of man."

Do you think Christian apologists and theologians have a duty to confront these absurdities or contradictions instead of treating them as evidence of divine inspiration?

BTW, I am willing to admit that many concepts in science seem absurd or contradictory to me. I have faith that these concepts are not a problem for scientists or they will be resolved eventually. The difference is that flawed scientific knowledge can still be valuable. I don't know if flawed theology has much value, because it usually doesn't make any testable predictions.

Here we on the Christian side are not supposed to fight, so I will just say that there are two styles of answers. If something might appear absurd to a sjeptic, Like Trinitarianism or incarnation or the presence in the bread, yes, the Orthodox can say it's ok for it to seem that way to nonbelievers because in 1 Cor 1 Paul contrasts the foolishness in man's eyes vs God's wisdom.

But the Reformed answer would agree with you and say absurdity is a decisive criterion. Calvin said that presence in bread was "absurd", so it doesn't happen. As a result, the Reformed style of reasoning I think, would imply to strongly argue back with you that Trinitarianism and incarnation are NOT absurd.

Of course Orthodox would not say that their beliefs are absurd, but they are more comfortable with allowing for seeming absurdities and for doubts.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Thanks, so this behavior even has a name LOL

Last night, I was thinking... if God is beyond human reason, then maybe any decent theology should lead to an absurdity? If the theology does not lead to an absurdity, then it probably isn't trying hard enough to understand God?

Of course, any decent theology should also be USEFUL - even though it is understood to be incomplete and somewhat wrong?

I get what you're saying here...but frankly I think that throwing your hands up and declaring god "mysterious" or "beyond man's reasoning" is letting god off the hook a little too easily.

There are some rather obvious conclusions that can be drawn from these "mysteries" that I think theologians have an obligation to confront even if they can't confront the mysteries themselves. For example, here are some reasonable conclusions one can draw from these mysteries...

1. God could've created us capable of comprehending him (therefore eliminating any mystery from him) but he didn't....why not? Obviously this question only applies to those gods which are all-powerful.

2. God could've effectively communicated with us (therefore eliminating any mystery) but he didn't/doesn't....why not? Again, applies only to all powerful gods.

3. God could've given us the ability/tools by which we can unravel his mysteries and explain them to others (this is different from #1 in that it allows us to find the knowledge for ourselves rather than simply giving us understanding from the point of creation)...but he didn't....why not?

So like I said, these are conclusions we can draw simply from the existence of holy mysteries. It's not hard to imagine why these questions are avoided in favor of simply declaring god "mysterious". The obvious answers to these questions contradict the sort of characterizations that are made about god.

For example, an answer to #1 might be that god simply doesn't care if we can comprehend him. Perhaps he finds it amusing that we struggle to comprehend him. These pictures of god as apathetic or sadistic don't jibe well with the narrative of a god who is loving and wants a personal relationship with his creations.