Are their sins that Jesus did not pay for?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Agree.

But considering the age we live in what not with humans traveling around freely in iron beasts, it's like poking out both eyes to not notice the antichrist parallels within the church organizations.

It's more of a "if the shoe fits" thing, not a denomination bashing fest.

A good book to read about this is "The Seduction of Christianity" by Dave Hunt. That book really opens one eyes to what is invading the Christian churches in these days.

 

[bling]

I am not sure whether you really do understand what the death and resurrection of Christ was all about. You seem to be saying that God forgives sinners merely because He loves them. You seem to ignore that God is a God of justice, and because all have sinned, and none are righteous, they come under the justice of God and have to pay the penalty for sin.

Lets just stick with Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder since the resurrection it is not part of the atonement process.

One of the characteristics of Godly type Love is the willingness, desire and offering of unconditional forgiveness to anyone and everyone, but as we learn in other places Matt. 18:21-35 specifically, true charitable forgiveness is a transaction requiring action with both parties. Just because you unconditionally forgive someone does not mean they are forgiven, since the person being forgiven has to accept that forgiveness as it was given (as pure charity).

So yes, God does His part perfectly and offers charitable forgiveness to everyone out off God’s Love.

The injustice would be if God only offered forgiveness to some sinners. God is treating everyone equally so He is just. We are really talking about a parent/child relationship, God being just with His children.

The “penalty/punishment” comes to those who refuse and never will accept God’s fair/just Loving discipline.

A gunman has come to court because he went into a mall and killed 50 people. The judge decides because he loves the murderer, to forgive him and let him go. What would you think of that judge? The families of those murdered victims would rise up in protest against the judge for not administering proper justice!

A civil judge does not have the right to forgive that criminal.

If there was some “cosmic law” out there, God has to follow, then I would expect God to be consistent in following it, but God has perfect will though out characteristics, He is consistent in following. How do you think those scared Christians who fled Jerusalem with just the clothes they had on, because their friends and family were tortured, imprisoned and even cruelly killed by Saul, and Saul is coming after them, felt about Saul’s forgiveness? If you say: “Christ died in Saul’s stead” and Christ died instead of everyone, why should any have to die?

So, what would we think of God that we might have to share heaven with the likes of Adolf Hitler, Osama bin Laden, and all the ISIS murderers who beheaded innocent people? We might acknowledge that God might love them, but He certainly wouldn't be loving us by making us share His heaven with those evil people!

Again, it is not just God’s wiliness to forgive, but the person humbly accepting God’s forgiveness as pure charity which is needed.

The people you mention are not any more “evil” than I was. My rebellious disobedience resulted in Christ going to the cross, the innocent being tortured, humiliated and murdered. I have been forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt, but I will not blame you for not wanting to be around me in heaven.

Because all are rebels against God and are inclined to a sinful, God-hating lifestyle, slaves to sin, so that any good works are excrement to God, there is a penalty. The Scripture says that the soul that sins shall die. Not only physical death but eternal death, which is a separation from God and everything good that He has created.

You quote: “the soul that sins shall die”, but what death is that referring to? We all (unless Christ returns) still physically die and Christians were all sinners at one time spiritual dead and are now made alive, but you seem to think this is talking about the second death, so what scripture support to you have for that in the context of this quote?

So, if you and I were forgiven of our rebellion and sin, the penalty for it had to be paid by someone if not by us. So I will give you three guesses who paid the penalty and how it was paid.

If we are 100% forgiven there is nothing left to pay.

It is never just to punish just “someone”, but the justice is in the fair/just punishment (or discipline) of the guilty, you always let the innocent go free.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Lets just stick with Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder since the resurrection it is not part of the atonement process.

One of the characteristics of Godly type Love is the willingness, desire and offering of unconditional forgiveness to anyone and everyone, but as we learn in other places Matt. 18:21-35 specifically, true charitable forgiveness is a transaction requiring action with both parties. Just because you unconditionally forgive someone does not mean they are forgiven, since the person being forgiven has to accept that forgiveness as it was given (as pure charity).

So yes, God does His part perfectly and offers charitable forgiveness to everyone out off God’s Love.

The injustice would be if God only offered forgiveness to some sinners. God is treating everyone equally so He is just. We are really talking about a parent/child relationship, God being just with His children.

The “penalty/punishment” comes to those who refuse and never will accept God’s fair/just Loving discipline.

A civil judge does not have the right to forgive that criminal.

If there was some “cosmic law” out there, God has to follow, then I would expect God to be consistent in following it, but God has perfect will though out characteristics, He is consistent in following. How do you think those scared Christians who fled Jerusalem with just the clothes they had on, because their friends and family were tortured, imprisoned and even cruelly killed by Saul, and Saul is coming after them, felt about Saul’s forgiveness? If you say: “Christ died in Saul’s stead” and Christ died instead of everyone, why should any have to die?

Again, it is not just God’s wiliness to forgive, but the person humbly accepting God’s forgiveness as pure charity which is needed.

The people you mention are not any more “evil” than I was. My rebellious disobedience resulted in Christ going to the cross, the innocent being tortured, humiliated and murdered. I have been forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt, but I will not blame you for not wanting to be around me in heaven.

You quote: “the soul that sins shall die”, but what death is that referring to? We all (unless Christ returns) still physically die and Christians were all sinners at one time spiritual dead and are now made alive, but you seem to think this is talking about the second death, so what scripture support to you have for that in the context of this quote?

If we are 100% forgiven there is nothing left to pay.

It is never just to punish just “someone”, but the justice is in the fair/just punishment (or discipline) of the guilty, you always let the innocent go free.

I think you are missing the important principle that all mankind by nature is sinful, rebellious against God, and deserving of Hell, and the penalty for that sin is hell. God would be totally unjust if He just let people off their just sentence of death and hell just because He decided to, for whatever reason. He would be totally righteous if He condemned every single person on earth to damnation and hell.

If God was as loving and forgiving as you say, why did He send a flood to totally destroy everyone in the world except Noah and his family? What did he destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and all their inhabitants and rescued just Lot and his family?

Do you think that God was unfair and unjust by exterminating the inhabitants of Canaan when Joshua and the Israelites took over the land?

By your reasoning, God, in His love for all mankind, no matter how evil and rebellious, should have freely forgiven them all! But He didn't, because He is a God of justice.

Justice has to be satisfied before mercy is extended. You said that a civil judge cannot just let a murderer go free. He has to abide by the law. In the same way, God has to abide by His own moral law, and cannot depart from it. His moral law says that the person who sins has to die and receive the penalty for his sin.

Jesus loved the rich young ruler, but the man could not be His disciple because Jesus gave him a condition which the young man refused, and Jesus had to sadly watch him walk away. By your reasoning, Jesus should have, out of His love for man, welcomed him into being a member of His team of disciples.

 

[bling]

I think you are missing the important principle that all mankind by nature is sinful, rebellious against God, and deserving of Hell, and the penalty for that sin is hell. God would be totally unjust if He just let people off their just sentence of death and hell just because He decided to, for whatever reason. He would be totally righteous if He condemned every single person on earth to damnation and hell.

God would be totally unjust if He punished an innocent person and let the guilty go free unpunished.

“Righteous” has to do with being right and what is right is determined by God, but God has told us in scripture and through Christ’s life what is right and God is not being hypocritical, since He follows the definition, He gave us.

Can God send people to hell if they did what He instructed them to do to go to heaven?

A child who refuses the fair just loving discipline, are left only with the punishment, but discipline and punishment are not equal, since the punishment includes the refusal of the discipline.

If God was as loving and forgiving as you say, why did He send a flood to totally destroy everyone in the world except Noah and his family? What did he destroy Sodom and Gomorrah and all their inhabitants and rescued just Lot and his family?

As I just said: “Discipline is not as severe as punishment, which includes the refusal to accept, Loving discipline.”

We all die eventually, so is death in and of itself bad?

God is forgiving, but a person has to humbly accept God’s forgiving as pure charity for forgiveness to take place. (Matt. 18)

Do you think that God was unfair and unjust by exterminating the inhabitants of Canaan when Joshua and the Israelites took over the land?

Not at all, God waited 400 years, but the Canaanites got worse. This would take a lengthy discussion, but “drive them out before you” is used three times more frequently than “destroy them”. God can quite supplying life to anyone at any time. Scripture also talks about “I will go before you”. After 6 days of nothing, how many in Jericho would have been on their wall mocking the Jews and seeing the show the Jews put on?

By your reasoning, God, in His love for all mankind, no matter how evil and rebellious, should have freely forgiven them all! But He didn't, because He is a God of justice.

Part of the definition of Godly type Love is unconditional forgiveness which we are to be offering our enemy, but like I said “forgiving” is not the same as forgiveness taking place (Matt. 18). Forgiveness is a transaction requiring the receiver of the forgiving to accept the forgiving as pure charity.

Justice has to be satisfied before mercy is extended. You said that a civil judge cannot just let a murderer go free. He has to abide by the law. In the same way, God has to abide by His own moral law, and cannot depart from it. His moral law says that the person who sins has to die and receive the penalty for his sin.

That is not true at all. God is constantly merciful and just. You are right it would be immoral for God to punish the innocent and let the guilty go free.

Romans 7:9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

I asked you to show me where scripture says “the penalty for sinning is death and that death only means the ‘second death’?”

We spiritual die when we sin, is understood and physical death is the result of Adam sinning and if we die in our sins we will go to hell, but hell is the result of not accepting God’s forgiveness of our sins.

Unforgiven sins result in hell, but if the sins are forgiven you do not go to hell.

What you seem to be telling me is: “Your sins not only have to be forgiven, but also need to be paid for”, but if they are forgiven there is nothing left to be paid? Where in scripture do you find such a forgiveness system?

How do you define scriptural unconditional forgiveness?

Jesus loved the rich young ruler, but the man could not be His disciple because Jesus gave him a condition which the young man refused, and Jesus had to sadly watch him walk away. By your reasoning, Jesus should have, out of His love for man, welcomed him into being a member of His team of disciples.

I never suggested anything like that.

The rich young man had a problem (his love of money/power/fame and lack of desire for an unconditional love for others) and Jesus gave him the solution to his problem. The rich man I would feel already knew he had a problem in this area (Jesus lets lots of those who come to Him know he knows what they know already to do). Jesus Loved him even after the rich young ruler left, but it was the rich man’s choice at that time and Jesus does not force the man to Love like God Loves, that has to be the free will choice of the man (a forced Love is not Godly Love).

You can ask for forgiveness of your Love for money, but if you do not repent than you are not accepting God’s forgiveness of that sin.