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Featured Are their sins that Jesus did not pay for?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Zachm531, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. Zachm531

    Zachm531 New Member

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    I was watching the predestination debate between Micheal Brown and James White and James said something that intrigued me and i hd never thought of before.

    Did Jesus’ work on the cross cover the unforgivable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit?
    Also was the sin of “unbelief” covered? And if so, is it possible to not be saved?
     
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  2. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No .
     
  3. ajcarey

    ajcarey Member

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    Present, unrepentant sin is never covered by Jesus' atonement- in the sense that it is forgiven. But obviously there is an atonement available for sin that a person who will deal with their sin as they ought to by confessing and forsaking it with a real living faith in the Jesus of the Bible can have applied to them (see 1 John 1:5 to 1 John 2:6). Obviously this would be true of the sin of unbelief also. There is no one who has never thought nor acted in unbelief who doesn't need pardon for that "for whatsoever is not of faith is sin." (Romans 14:23b)

    Now when it comes to the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, I suppose it's logical to say that Jesus' work on the cross would not, as well as could not, cover that. But it is also logical to conclude that this is no way validates James White's theology since the Bible is clear that God is no respecter of persons. By that I mean that ANYONE who truly blasphemes the Holy Spirit (and most who think they have done so in fact have not) would be beyond the hope of pardon; and no one who has truly done so had to do so (they could have refrained and also repented instead). There is no validity to limited atonement then just because someone one may be beyond pardon, since such people didn't need to commit the unpardonable sin; and before they had committed it they could have repented and found pardon through Christ's blood. So overall Christ's atonement not being able to cover the unpardonable sin only proves there is a sin the atonement doesn't cover; it by no means proves (as Mr. White believes) that there are people which Christ's atonement could never have possibly covered and been applied to. White is using a strawman argument which is even worse because his own position is so obviously refuted many, many times in the Scriptures.

    Look at the "all"s in this passage: 1 Timothy 2:1-6 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

    And then the nail in the coffin of Mr. White's argument and theology:
    Romans 11:30-32 "30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."
     
  4. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Unbelief and blaspheming the Holy Spirit are the same.
    The second is more on the verbal side, yet a reflection of the thought.
    Somebody that swears at God because of Turrets syndrome is not in danger.
     
  5. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    All sins are covered, except for "intentional" unbelief.

    Romans 6:23
    For the wages of sin is death,
    but the free gift of God
    is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
  6. Michael Collum

    Michael Collum Everything began with a voice, use yours Supporter

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    No they're not.

    Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is equating the work of God to the work of Satan, this is something mainline churches do all the time to their fellow denominations.

    Not the same as "not believing your gospel"

    Incorrect, pastor's sales pitch rejected.
     
  7. grasping the after wind

    grasping the after wind That's grasping after the wind

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    Jesus did not die for our sins he died for us. It is our sinfulness that He atoned for, our individual sins are simply symptoms of that sinfulness.
     
  8. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    If Jesus did not pay the price for all our sins when He shed His blood on the cross, then He is not a complete Saviour.

    Concerning the unforgivable sin, Jesus never said about that to the common people. He said it in a specific situation where some hypocritical Jewish leaders were accusing Him of casting out demons through the power of Satan. There is absolutely no mention of the unforgivable sin anywhere else in the New Testament. The reference to it was specifically directed to the group of Jewish religious leaders who were accusing Jesus falsely. It does not apply at all to genuinely converted believers. Therefore, there is no such thing as the unforgivable sin under the New Covenant. If there was, Paul would have taught it, but there is nothing pointing to anything like it in any of his epistles.

    In the book of Hebrews it says that Jesus made sacrifice for sin one and for all, and offered up His blood in the heavenly holy of holies. This means that Jesus is our total and complete Saviour, and all sin, no matter how bad, will be forgiven upon confession to God, and the sinner totally cleansed from all unrighteousness.
     
  9. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Soli Deo Gloria

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    James White and Michael Brown believe differently on the issue of predestination, yet are still really good friends. I wish Christians were like this. Many people condemn Calvinists as heretics and have no fellowship with them at all.

    Jesus died for the believer's sin. The unforgivable sin isn't one that a believer can commit.
     
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  10. bling

    bling Regular Member Supporter

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    How could you “pay” for a sin which was 100% forgiven?

    If I accept payment for a, transgression against me, can I say: “I am forgave you unconditionally”?
     
  11. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
    1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
     
  12. 1213

    1213 Disciple of Jesus

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    I think the work on cross is misunderstood, if it is understood as an actual payment. Jesus had right to forgive sins before his death:

    The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
    Luke 5:21-25

    And disciples of Jesus have that same right:

    Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
    John 20:23

    It is possible to forgive many sins. But forgiveness is not useful, if person doesn’t become righteous, because:

    These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
    Mat. 25:46

    That is why Jesus said:


    "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more."

    John 8:11
     
  13. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It applies to anyone that blasphemes the Holy Spirit.


    Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
    Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


    Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
    Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
     
  14. thecolorsblend

    thecolorsblend If God is your Father, who is your Mother?

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    The answer must be yes. Millions of Christians through history have lived parts of their lives not believing and blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Upon coming to faith, however, they confessed and repented, thereafter living faithfully.

    If they believed, confessed and repented, there isn't a reason to think their earlier sin of disbelief wasn't forgiven.
     
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  15. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Disbelief is not the unforgivable sin.
     
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  16. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    We are forgiven because Jesus paid the price. Forgiveness is conditional. If we sin, we have to pay the penalty. "If you do the crime, you need to do the time". God cannot just forgive when there is a penalty to be paid. It would be against justice, and God is a God of justice as well as mercy.

    This is basically Christianity 101, and I would suggest you get a book teaching the basics of salvation and how we can receive mercy and forgiveness and how does the finished work of Christ on the cross achieve that for us.
     
  17. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    If you apply correct exegesis to the verses, you will see that Jesus was speaking to unconverted Jewish religious leaders who were still under the Old Covenant. And He clearly defined what the sin was: accusing Jesus of casting out demons through the power of Satan. The accusation did not come from the common believers at the time, and it was specifically directed at Jesus personally.

    Everything changed under the New Covenant. Genuine believers have the Holy Spirit within them and there is absolutely no way they can blaspheme Him in any form. I can't say the same for religious hypocrites, professing Christianity, who came over the wall instead of the narrow gate of true heart-faith in Christ. These are not genuine believers at all, and so they are still in an unforgiven, lost state.

    Also, Jesus is no longer present, nor are there Jewish Pharisees, so the scenario that gave rise to Jesus' statement about the unforgivable sin no longer exists. No one can accuse Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Satan, because Jesus is not present in the world to do it.

    Any reference to believers possibly committing the unforgivable sin is just twisting Scripture out of its proper context and misapplying it to those it was never directed at in the first place.

    I say again, there is no such thing as the unforgivable sin for genuine believers in Christ.
     
  18. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He said, "whosoever" so he was talking about anyone who commits the sin not just one certain type of people.
     
  19. ajcarey

    ajcarey Member

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    Not so. Any sin that one hardens their heart in and refuses to repent from will not be covered by Jesus' atonement.

    1 John 1:5-7 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

    Revelation 21:7-8: "7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

    Ephesians 5:3-7:
    "3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them."
     
  20. Mountainmanbob

    Mountainmanbob Goat Whisperer Supporter

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    Because they just have not matured.

    David Jeremiah the well known preacher and teacher often quotes Calvinist R C Sproul and John MacArthur. These guys may not be in the same camp but, they are smart enough to know that they are all christians.

    I did not know that I leaned towards the Calvinist teachings until I found myself in a good reformed church one Sunday that was teaching God's Word straight from the Bible.

    M-Bob
     
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