Since the sacraments are supernatural, I'm sure that he didn't mean that we shouldn't desire that kind of supernatural experience (and I'm sure that you don't mean that kind of supernatural experience either).
The sacraments are supernatural. Are you denying that?Sorry, but JimR is correct, and as a Carmelite who lives his vocation (for many years), he would know best.
You are mistaking "sanctifying" grace that the Church defines in connection with Her sacraments, and "supernatural" gifts which are not dependent upon the sacraments. If you need further references, let us know.
HOLY EUCHARIST A MYSTERY OF FAITH
15. First of all, We want to recall something that you know very well but that is absolutely necessary if the virus of every kind of rationalism is to be repelled; it is something that many illustrious martyrs have witnessed to with their blood, something that celebrated fathers and Doctors of the Church have constantly professed and taught. We mean the fact that the Eucharist is a very great mystery—in fact, properly speaking and in the words of the Sacred Liturgy, the mystery of faith. "It contains within it," as Leo XIII, Our predecessor of happy memory, very wisely remarked, "all supernatural realities in a remarkable richness and variety of miracles."
(Paul VI - Mysterium Fidei)
The sacraments are supernatural. Are you denying that?
I added a reference to my post. But your post beat mine by two minutes. By "supernatural" I mean that which is above the merely natural. Sanctifying grace would not be what it is if it were something that worked only on the natural level. For example, on the natural level baptism washes away the dirt. But on the supernatural level it washes away our sins.You are misapplying the term ... they bestow "sanctifying" grace, and are not referred to as supernatural gifts. Maybe you have a reference to back this up?
I added a reference to my post. But your post beat mine by two minutes. By "supernatural" I mean that which is above the merely natural. Sanctifying grace would not be what it is if it were something that worked only on the natural level. For example, on the natural level baptism washes away the dirt. But on the supernatural level it washes away our sins.
Since the sacraments are supernatural, I'm sure that he didn't mean that we shouldn't desire that kind of supernatural experience (and I'm sure that you don't mean that kind of supernatural experience either).
not different tongues, (since tongues are a gift of God, our source, and thus cannot be 'differing' and still be considered legitimate)
And the confusion only arose when you misquoted (and then expanded upon that misquote) of JimR-OCDS.
pdudgeon said:But you might just want to read Jim's comment again a bit more carefully, because what he said and what you thought he said is different.
JimR-OCDS said:We're not to desire supernatural "experiences", for the devil can use such things to lead us astray.
I was using the term "supernatural" in the context of supernatural vs. merely natural. I said that the sacraments are a supernatural experience because they contain a supernatural element and have a supernatural affect on us. The sacraments have a natural element, but they are not merely natural. The water of baptism does more than just wash dirt off of our body. And when we eat the Eucharist it does more than just provide physical nourishment. The quote I provided about the Eucharist (as follows and emphasis mine):I think I understand where the confusion arose. Let's look at LWU's words in expanded mode, as I understood his words.
"I'm sure that he (St. John of the Cross, presumably?) didn't mean that we shouldn't desire that kind of supernatural experience (as in "sacraments?") (and I'm sure that you [JimR] don't mean that kind of supernatural experience either)."
Perhaps the entire context went astray due to LWU's personal understanding that a sacrament is a supernatural experience, whereas, I was reading both JimR's and John of the Cross's context that supernatural "experiences" are extraordinary, and are freely bestowed by God alone ... and are not classified as supernatural "gifts" or supernatural sacraments. "Experiences" would include ecstasy, stigmata, rapture, locutions, visions, etc. It would NOT include supernatural gifts such as speaking in tongues, healing, prophecy, exhortation, miracles, discernment of spirits, and the like. 1 Cor 14:1, "Follow after charity and earnestly pursue spiritual gifts, but above all, that ye may prophesy."
In this context, supernatural experiences, according to both JimR and John of the Cross should never be desired, yet the supernatural "gifts" are to be sought after to use in building up the body of Christ. So JimR was correct in sharing St. John's warning, and I simply confirmed it.
Terminology .... it can confuse the issue when we speak with different "tongues." LOL!
Whatever St. John of the Cross said, I very much doubt he ever denied the supernatural aspect of the sacraments. This is what I was assuming when I answered Jim's post. And I also assumed that Jim wouldn't deny it either.
I agree with that. And about the misunderstanding, don't worry about it.No, of course not. But he did caution against inordinate desires to experience mystical phenomena, which is what Jim and I were referring to. I see that we are pretty much on the same page now. Sorry for all the confusion.
I agree that we should not seek supernatural consolations like how you describe. The paradox of the sacraments is that although they are supernatural the supernatural element of the sacraments is invisible, so it encourages us to rely on our faith rather than looking for supernatural consolation with our senses.St Barnabas is correct in her interpretation of what I said and I was speaking from St John of the Cross.
If we desire supernatural experiences, whether its locutions, apparitions or interior consolations, we in our fallen state will place the importance of these over the desire to follow the will of God because he is God.
We often take the consolations we experience and begin to provide commentary to them. In other words, we begin to use them for our own agenda, rather than the purpose God gave them to us, which is closer union with him.
Our desire must be pure union with Jesus Christ, period. Whatever comes from that is a gift, but the gift must not become greater to us than the gift giver.
St John of the Cross taught against having desires for supernatural experiences, because he knew how the human ego worked and how the evil one can use this against us.
We love God, because He is God, and just being in His presence, is all that is needed.
Jim
I agree that we should not seek supernatural consolations like how you describe. The paradox of the sacraments is that although they are supernatural the supernatural element of the sacraments is invisible, so it encourages us to rely on our faith rather than looking for supernatural consolation with our senses.
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