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Are their modern examples of people speaking in tongues, healing, etc...?

Discussion in 'One Bread, One Body - Catholic' started by FriendlyJosh, Apr 28, 2015.

  1. St_Barnabus

    St_Barnabus Secular Carmelite OCDS

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    Sorry, but JimR is correct, and as a Carmelite who lives his vocation (for many years), he would know best.

    You are mistaking "sanctifying" grace that the Church defines in connection with Her sacraments, and "supernatural" gifts which are not dependent upon the sacraments. If you need further references, let us know.
     
  2. LivingWordUnity

    LivingWordUnity Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic

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    The sacraments are supernatural. Are you denying that?

    The emphasis in the following quote is mine:
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2015
  3. St_Barnabus

    St_Barnabus Secular Carmelite OCDS

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    You are misapplying the term ... they bestow "sanctifying" grace, and are not referred to as supernatural gifts. Maybe you have a reference to back this up?
     
  4. LivingWordUnity

    LivingWordUnity Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic

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    I added a reference to my post. But your post beat mine by two minutes. By "supernatural" I mean that which is above the merely natural. Sanctifying grace would not be what it is if it were something that worked only on the natural level. For example, on the natural level baptism washes away the dirt. But on the supernatural level it washes away our sins.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2015
  5. St_Barnabus

    St_Barnabus Secular Carmelite OCDS

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    Ok, I'm not going to debate "terminology" as each of us understands it. I rely on the CCC and the definitions contained therein.

    This is skirting the issue I addressed saying that JimR is correct in saying that St. John of the Cross (Carmelite Doctor of the Church) teaches that one should never "desire" to receive supernatural gifts (note that we are not talking about sacraments, but gratis datae). There are many dangers in doing so, and he wrote several chapters explaining these dangers. I don't see any value in posting those links from his writings, unless you are adamantly disagreeing with this holy Doctor.
     
  6. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Traditional Catholic

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    Last edited: May 2, 2015
  7. St_Barnabus

    St_Barnabus Secular Carmelite OCDS

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    I think I understand where the confusion arose. Let's look at LWU's words in expanded mode, as I understood his words.

    "I'm sure that he (St. John of the Cross, presumably?) didn't mean that we shouldn't desire that kind of supernatural experience (as in "sacraments?") (and I'm sure that you [JimR] don't mean that kind of supernatural experience either)."

    Perhaps the entire context went astray due to LWU's personal understanding that a sacrament is a supernatural experience, whereas, I was reading both JimR's and John of the Cross's context that supernatural "experiences" are extraordinary, and are freely bestowed by God alone ... and are not classified as supernatural "gifts" or supernatural sacraments. "Experiences" would include ecstasy, stigmata, rapture, locutions, visions, etc. It would NOT include supernatural gifts such as speaking in tongues, healing, prophecy, exhortation, miracles, discernment of spirits, and the like. 1 Cor 14:1, "Follow after charity and earnestly pursue spiritual gifts, but above all, that ye may prophesy."

    In this context, supernatural experiences, according to both JimR and John of the Cross should never be desired, yet the supernatural "gifts" are to be sought after to use in building up the body of Christ. So JimR was correct in sharing St. John's warning, and I simply confirmed it.

    Terminology .... it can confuse the issue when we speak with different "tongues." LOL!
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
  8. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Traditional Catholic

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    Last edited: May 2, 2015
  9. St_Barnabus

    St_Barnabus Secular Carmelite OCDS

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    That was meant to be a joke, but I see it went over your head. ;)

    I don't follow you at all, for I was quoting JimR correctly, echoing his teaching from St. John of the Cross. The problem was with LWU misunderstanding both Jim's and my use of the words "spiritual experience." Let's drop it please, ok? These are heavy theological concepts written about by a Doctor of the Church, and not meant to be evaluated by the uninformed. Some day, I hope you will become familiar with them, for in that day, you will be understand their meaning as JimR and I have tried to point out.

    Incidentally, as JimR's user name indicates and as I too am also a professed member, OCDS stands for Order of Carmelites Discalced, Secular. Both of us are well-schooled in what we are speaking about.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
  10. JimR-OCDS

    JimR-OCDS God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

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    The desire for gifts of the Holy Spirit and supernatural experiences are two different things.


    One, is a gift from God which is given to provide benefits to others, not ourselves.

    The later is a self-seeking desire in order to feed the ego, or spiritual pride as also referred to.


    The desire is to impress others of how spiritually developed one is, but the reality is that it's just the opposite.

    It's spiritual immaturity and borders dangerously opening ourselves to unwanted spirits.

    To provide an example of the former point, St Bernadette received apparitions from the Blessed Mother, but they were not for her benefit, but for the Church and those who witnessed the events.

    The major point was that the dogma of the Immaculate Conception which the Pope declared in 1854, was proven to be true. That dogma nearly caused a schism in the Church and through Bernadette, the Blessed Mother confirmed the dogma and the threat of schism was put to rest.

    In all, the saints like St Bernadette, St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross, were very much detached from ego driven desires. They all were humble.

    So, our prayer should not be for spiritual experiences, but humility.

    The Saints aligned their will with God's will. This can only happen through humility.

    Jim
     
  11. Galilee63

    Galilee63 Newbie

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    Hi FriendlyJosh,

    This question probably belongs in the Charismatic Section of CF.

    Yes, here within two Parishes there are healings done by Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit while people are praying speaking in tongues.

    These Parishes rarely have a seat/pew remaining at all of their Holy Masses with many new Parishioners attending that have illnesses and ailments, many are healed trusting in our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Another person I know was healed of cancer that was terminal after She had turned to our Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour and The Blessed Virgin Mary, visited a Mountain with an old Holy Grotto, picked up the Holy Rosary beads and was healed by Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit.

    Love and kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour
     
  12. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Traditional Catholic

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    Last edited: May 2, 2015
  13. St_Barnabus

    St_Barnabus Secular Carmelite OCDS

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    Ok, here's Jim's original comment. I fail to see how I misunderstood him, for that is exactly what I replied to, when I said he is "correct." I seriously don't understand why you are belaboring this so heavily. St. John of the Cross, together with St.Teresa of Avila are both Doctors of the Church, specifically for their teaching on mystical phenomena, which Jim and I brought down to the reader's level in calling it "spiritual experiences." Carmelite studies by those who are members, have always been to deeply grasp the writings of our Carmelite saints, and it is a "vocation" given by God. Certainly, the average Joe in the pew is not going to understand these easily.
     
  14. LivingWordUnity

    LivingWordUnity Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic

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    I was using the term "supernatural" in the context of supernatural vs. merely natural. I said that the sacraments are a supernatural experience because they contain a supernatural element and have a supernatural affect on us. The sacraments have a natural element, but they are not merely natural. The water of baptism does more than just wash dirt off of our body. And when we eat the Eucharist it does more than just provide physical nourishment. The quote I provided about the Eucharist (as follows and emphasis mine):
    HOLY EUCHARIST A MYSTERY OF FAITH

    15. First of all, We want to recall something that you know very well but that is absolutely necessary if the virus of every kind of rationalism is to be repelled; it is something that many illustrious martyrs have witnessed to with their blood, something that celebrated fathers and Doctors of the Church have constantly professed and taught. We mean the fact that the Eucharist is a very great mystery—in fact, properly speaking and in the words of the Sacred Liturgy, the mystery of faith. "It contains within it," as Leo XIII, Our predecessor of happy memory, very wisely remarked, "all supernatural realities in a remarkable richness and variety of miracles."

    (Paul VI - Mysterium Fidei)​
    shows that the Church believes this about the sacraments, too. If you mean visible supernatural experiences then the sacraments would not be one of those kind since the supernatural element of the sacraments is invisible and requires faith. I didn't see my post as disagreeing with what Jim said. I was only adding my two cents and clarifying what I thought he probably meant.

    Whatever St. John of the Cross said, I very much doubt he ever denied the supernatural aspect of the sacraments. This is what I was assuming when I answered Jim's post. And I also assumed that Jim wouldn't deny it either.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
  15. St_Barnabus

    St_Barnabus Secular Carmelite OCDS

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    No, of course not. But he did caution against inordinate desires to experience mystical phenomena, which is what Jim and I were referring to. I see that we are pretty much on the same page now. Sorry for all the confusion.
     
  16. LivingWordUnity

    LivingWordUnity Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic

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    I agree with that. And about the misunderstanding, don't worry about it.
     
  17. JimR-OCDS

    JimR-OCDS God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

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    St Barnabas is correct in her interpretation of what I said and I was speaking from St John of the Cross.


    If we desire supernatural experiences, whether its locutions, apparitions or interior consolations, we in our fallen state will place the importance of these over the desire to follow the will of God because he is God.


    We often take the consolations we experience and begin to provide commentary to them. In other words, we begin to use them for our own agenda, rather than the purpose God gave them to us, which is closer union with him.

    Our desire must be pure union with Jesus Christ, period. Whatever comes from that is a gift, but the gift must not become greater to us than the gift giver.

    St John of the Cross taught against having desires for supernatural experiences, because he knew how the human ego worked and how the evil one can use this against us.

    We love God, because He is God, and just being in His presence, is all that is needed.


    Jim
     
  18. LivingWordUnity

    LivingWordUnity Unchanging Deposit of Faith, Traditional Catholic

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    I agree that we should not seek supernatural consolations like how you describe. The paradox of the sacraments is that although they are supernatural the supernatural element of the sacraments is invisible, so it encourages us to rely on our faith rather than looking for supernatural consolation with our senses.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2015
  19. JimR-OCDS

    JimR-OCDS God Cannot Be Grasped, Except Through Love

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    I think the problem is that you're leaving off the last part of the term, "experience."

    Experience is something we feel consciously.

    Although the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist is supernatural, it's not necessarily a felt experience, even though sanctifying grace is given at the time.


    Sometimes we may feel supernatural consolations after we received the Body of Christ, it doesn't always happen consciously and when it does, it's a gift.

    But even then, the consolation is never given preference over the giver of consolation.

    Jim
     
  20. pdudgeon

    pdudgeon Traditional Catholic

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    Last edited: May 2, 2015
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